Suggestions and comments on the Mist Camp serving as a high level hub

[hugolino]

I like the main suggestion for the Mist Camp, and I grasp the meaning of "hub" that is being used in this case. If I may make a suggestion, I would suggest taking inspiration from chapter 6, 8, 9 and more of "Van Richten's Guide to the Mists" (official source book, pdf only, Wizards of the Coast, c 2005).

After all, as I understand it, the Mist Camp is essentially a stopover in the middle of a Mistway and/or it is an oubliette (an isolated fragment of land swallowed by the mist). That it makes it quite unique and unpredictable for the server, I would think. At least, it should.

Here are some interesting excerpts that could be applied if desired:

ON MISTWAYS

Spoiler: show

"Gentle Reader, although a Mistway provides as reliable a passage through the Mists as is possible without the guidance of a Vistani, such travel is still quite fraught with dangers. Even careful projection of one's path does not protect a traveler from various bloodthirsty Mist creatures, madmen or the odd choking gas..." (chapter 6, p. 66-67)

"Battle along a Mistway is both frustrating and difficult. Creatures use the concealment of the fog to appear from nowhere, with the more intelligent ones seeming to mark certain Mistways as their preferred game trails. Attempting to shoot a pistol or use a bow in the midst of the fog is perilous to other travelers -- even those seemingly outside the range or aim of the shooter. The Mists are confusing..." (chapter 6, p. 67)

"SHOOTING AT SHADOWS: COMBAT AND MOVEMENT IN THE MISTS
The confusing nature of the Mists provides a challenge for those attempting to move through them or, worse yet, use ranged weapons within them. All persons moving through the Mistways should consider themselves in light concealment (10% miss chance) during combat or when performing Spot or Search checks per the rules in the Player's Handbook... DMs who wish to emphasize the horrific uncertainty inherent in attempting to manuever in the Mists may also apply the random modifiers listed in Table 6-1 by rolling a d20 before each round." (chapter 6, p. 66)

ON OUBLIETTES

Spoiler: show

"WHAT IS AN OUBLIETTE?
Defining a dread oubliette is quite simple. It is also terribly complex. In the plainest of terms, an oubliette is a space within the Mists with its own solid reality, but normally uninhabited except by those creatures who roam the Mists -- or the occasional misfortunate Mist-led or Fugued being. Such places are not necessarily corrupted, such as those horrifying sinkholes of evil. Although surrounded by the Mists, they are neither difficult to enter, nor usually to leave. They are places of sanctuary for some, holding cells for those unfortunates caught in a time fugue within the Mists or temporary homes for others." (chapter 8, p. 82)

"What makes the oubliette different from any of the other dark pockets in Ravenloft? Well, first of all, these places are not regularly inhabited by intelligent beings -- no villagers or no dread villain on the parapets of the castle. Yet these places have their own personalities and may be the temporary home of any Mist creature, whether born of the Mists, Lost or Mist-led and desperate to get out. Secondly, the oubliettes are never permanent..." (chapter 8, p. 85)
 
In Table 8-1, it is noted that an oubliette could have "salient effects," either at random or as determined by the DM. These can be "paranoia" (-2 penalty on attack, saves, skills and abilities -- Will negates), "twisted perceptions" (20% miss chances for all attacks, skill penalty of 5 -- Fortitude negates), "inside the nightmare" (lost sense of direction, tracking penalty of 5 -- Will negates), "raging heart" (rage effect on those in the oubliette), "menacing atmosphere" (-2 on all attacks, saves, ability checks and skills; paladins not immune -- Will negates), and lastly creatures who have used the oubliette for refuge for a week or longer gain spell resistance of 5 (stackable) until they have been away from it for a week.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

The mistway part has actually been planned for long, just need implementation. I've also given that some priority now and I think you'll be quite happy with the result.

I'm making the camp less centralised, adding a visitors camp and additionally, visiting caravans that'll vary over time.

I will try to add a few more spots, perhaps even sub-areas that people can withdraw to when needed. It's important though that we don't foil the mysterious feel that should pertain to the area by adding too many various elements to the point it seems both random and overpopulated. Dementlieu, the Village of Barovia, Blaustein etc. are just a few areas away (at most) and we shouldn't overlap them entirely.

I think the point I'm trying to put forward is perhaps best illustrated by using the Western Outskirts as analogy. You don't have crafting stations right there, you don't have the Drain, Dvergeheim and Degannwy as sub-areas to this place. Although the travel distance is short, given the functioning of the mist camp and the caravans, the travelling distance to places like Dementlieu isn't further than from the Western Outskirts to Dvergeheim. The mist camp has the advantage that virtually everywhere can be nearby. In the discussion of proximity and travel distance, there's no better place than the Mist Camp really.

[Aahz]

I think the point I'm trying to put forward is perhaps best illustrated by using the Western Outskirts as analogy. You don't have crafting stations right there, you don't have the Drain, Dvergeheim and Degannwy as sub-areas to this place. Although the travel distance is short, given the functioning of the mist camp and the caravans, the travelling distance to places like Dementlieu isn't further than from the Western Outskirts to Dvergeheim. The mist camp has the advantage that virtually everywhere can be nearby. In the discussion of proximity and travel distance, there's no better place than the Mist Camp really.

You also don't have a minimum wait time nor cost get to and from the outskirts. If you can freely just drop by the Western outskirts and see who is around and not be "out" anything if no one is there. I think that the village or Port-a-Lucine would function better as hubs for this reason.

Actually, by the same argument, Port-a-Lucine is an even worse area for a hub than the mist came as the cost and wait time to get there is double that of the mist camp. Granted there is a lot more to do in Port-a-Lucine. However, even now it is hard to find bounties/areas to adventure in the port not already cleared when people are actually in the Port. That will only increase as the number of people there increases.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Travelling with the vistani caravans takes just 3 minutes. Even if you have to wait for a caravan to be available, it won't be more than 5-6 minutes. When people walk (and perhaps even roleplay!), it'll take more time getting from the Western Outskirts to the other end of town.

And the more people who start to frequent the place, the better the chances you can split the cost with someone else.

[Aahz]

Travelling with the vistani caravans takes just 3 minutes. Even if you have to wait for a caravan to be available, it won't be more than 5-6 minutes. When people walk (and perhaps even roleplay!), it'll take more time getting from the Western Outskirts to the other end of town.

And the more people who start to frequent the place, the better the chances you can split the cost with someone else.

Its not just the wait time, its the cost. In any event I believe the time/cost is already sufficient enough that the area will not work as an effective hub. I believe the first and foremost requirement of a hub is the ability to casually get to and leave from the area (I.E. no minimum resources {time/gold} are required to be spent getting to the area)

I'm all for giving it a try but I doubt it will work out in the long run.

[ethinos]

100 gold pieces isn't that much for a mid- or high-level. I've found that you can find 300-500 gold pieces in each pile of garbage in the sewers of Port-A-Lucine.

I don't think time/cost is going to affect as many people as you seem to think. Especially since the hub caters mostly to the dungeoneering crowd, who are likely to have plenty of currency on hand.

[respawnaholic]

Travelling with the vistani caravans takes just 3 minutes. Even if you have to wait for a caravan to be available, it won't be more than 5-6 minutes. When people walk (and perhaps even roleplay!), it'll take more time getting from the Western Outskirts to the other end of town.

And the more people who start to frequent the place, the better the chances you can split the cost with someone else.

Those three minutes start adding up when youve already tacked on considerable travel time to just getting there AND your going back and forth several times per day...and more often than not...alone. People who want to roleplay in the caraven can roleplay outside of it just as easily.

Really not trying to be arguementative, but if you want people to start frequenting your second hub you need to make it less time consuming to get there. Over the past week I cept one of my characters parked in Barovia village just to see what would happen. Granted I wasnt on for long blocks of time but basically I saw one person in a weeks time, and they left pretty quickly to go do something actually interesting. Just seems to me that levels 1- 20 frequent the Western Outskirts because thats where everyone else is. Everyone is there because its the main point of entry and thus easy to get to. Having 40-50 people on seems like alot, but when you spread them out over several dozen areas the server can seem pretty empty real quick. As long as the Western Outskirts is the most easy and convient place to get to it will always be the main hub for everyone.

[Aduial]

Perhaps a thing that can help to start the new hub can be a sort of "main event", like a very nice and long term plot runned by the DM ,that can "change" a few aspects of the nearby zone or have his repercussions in the setting in some way, as in the past happened to the Zeklos keep, to make an example.

[Springer]

Yes, actually Village is better in such events because it is not a starting area so for example temple maybe overran by undead at least for sometime and things like that. Much easier to change high lvel location then starting location.

[Rendrick]

Lets try this from a new perspective.

Benefits from Western Outskirts.

-Only 1 NPC

-Wide open area

-Guaranteed RP
-Church with limited free healing
   -Religious RP options
   -Ressurection

-Multiple exits/ entrances from other transitions Six not including the Inn and Church & sewers

-Quick access to large City (Vallaki) RP and multiple faction bases.

-High volume of materials for crafting in surrounding areas

Benefits to the Mist Camp

-Access to high level areas

-3min access to multiple cities



The western outskirts is too well established as a central hub. Everyone on the server whether a casual gamer or intensive gamer will know if they want to RP or meet a diverse melting pot of server population will find it in the Outskirts.

The only way to pull a certain population of character and player is to create benefits beyond quick travel to potential levelings areas as proven.

The mist camp is doomed, it's established in everyones mind as a travel point and nothing more. It will need muscles, facelift and a boob job for people to notice it so give it ONE-WAY fast travel to certain areas(crafting materials volume). Make it less cluttered so people fill it up, find a way to make the caravan less like public transportation, give it transitions to different places to remove the claustraphobia. It needs diversity to draw diversity, Sewers(evil/outcasts), Church (good), Inn (Neutral), City (chaotic). If the area cannot sustain interest it will not keep people there, and if it doesn't keep people there it will not create the RP guarantee players require in a "hub".

[ethinos]

Ok, I propose that all transitions leading to/from the Western Outskirts take 3 minutes. There, problem solved!

[Springer]

People would just stand in the outskirts and wont go anywhere.

[ethinos]

Lets try this from a new perspective.

I'd rather see this from the older perspective as it's more constructive and productive. But, taking a cue from you, maybe finding ways of making the Western Outskirts less desirable for a mid- to high-level character is something we can consider instead. *shrug*

The mist camp is doomed, it's established in everyones mind as a travel point and nothing more.

The Mist Camp isn't doomed. It's hardly been in play yet. Also, after seeing the last few posts from Soren, I'm not sure he really expects it to be anything more than a meeting place for grouping up for adventures.

If you think about it, the Western Outskirts is two things for mid- to high-levels.

• It is a place to jump into roleplaying
• It is a place where you can meetup for dungeoning

I think if we can push players to the Village of Barovia or Port-A-Lucine for roleplaying, and to the Mist Camp for grouping up for dungeoning, then the Outskirts wouldn't be used as much for anyone but low levels. The idea was never to kick uber folks out of Vallaki, but to keep them from loitering in the Outskirts.

While I hate the idea of relying on DM activity to draw players, but with DM Tarokka already running wildly and wonderfully amok in Port-A-Lucine, all we'd need is more DM involvement in the Village of Barovia, and folks may find themselves more drawn to those locations.

[Rendrick]

The idea was never to kick uber folks out of Vallaki, but to keep them from loitering in the outskirts

See, I can pull single sentences from a paragraph to removing half the meaning from it.

Hard fact is you can't depend on a DM or staff to make an area attractive. It sets up Tarroka to get burned out and again does not guarantee the player base a reason to be there because there's no guarantee Tarroka is logged on or working on an event.

To create a hub you need these ingredients. Guaranteed roleplay, how do you guarantee roleplay? You create a reason for players to utilize the area for a more extended period of time. How do you keep a player in an area for a more extended period of time? Create an unlimited benefit to the desired group, unfortunatly it can't be roleplay because that's our desired Ingredient, so perhaps roleplay opportunities, or crafting, or housing, or open trade. perhaps Vallakia will ban the sales of magical crafts or bounties,

Like I said before, and I assume is being done, the mist camp we know now would need to be modified and revamped to become a viable hub.

[ethinos]

See, I can pull single sentences from a paragraph to removing half the meaning from it.

I quote parts that are relevant to my responses, for use as a reference only. Otherwise, confusion and misunderstandings can occur if you (or someone else) thinks I commented on something different in your post. It happens. Also, in the event of a page break, it's easy to see what I am referencing if my post ends up being the first on a new page. I'm simply attempting to make my arguments/comments clearly understood. There's no shady business going on.

Hard fact is you can't depend on a DM or staff to make an area attractive. It sets up Tarroka to get burned out and again does not guarantee the player base a reason to be there because there's no guarantee Tarroka is logged on or working on an event.

Yep, and that's why I said I didn't like relying on them either. But we do know that DM activity can help encourage a character's transition to a new place. The fact is that DMs have often stated that they don't like running events in the Outskirts, because of the presence of higher levels. They can instead run some of those events in the Village and Port, at least for a little while. Even if these events are short-term, they'll cause PCs to migrate, and then roleplay at the new hubs can be more natural and more common. I do believe other DM's besides Tarokka run events in Port-A-Lucine. If we can get more activity in the Village, then I think that could be beneficial.

To create a hub you need these ingredients. Guaranteed roleplay, how do you guarantee roleplay? You create a reason for players to utilize the area for a more extended period of time. How do you keep a player in an area for a more extended period of time? Create an unlimited benefit to the desired group, unfortunatly it can't be roleplay because that's our desired Ingredient, so perhaps roleplay opportunities, or crafting, or housing, or open trade. perhaps Vallakia will ban the sales of magical crafts or bounties,

Like I said before, and I assume is being done, the mist camp we know now would need to be modified and revamped to become a viable hub.

What kind of hub? I still think that Soren is implying that the Mist Camp was more of a hangout than an actual roleplaying hub. The Village and the Port are more well suited for being roleplaying hubs.

Being a crafter, I don't see crafting as being relevant to a roleplaying hub nor a meetup/hangout type of hub. Trading/selling, yes. Crafting, no. Most crafting materials are spread all over the server, and require quite a bit of travelling anyways. None of the places I actually craft are usually near places that I want to roleplay.

[Axra]

+1 to Rendrick.

He has a good argument.

I think Barovia or the Mist camp etc becoming a hub is a terrific Idea, but its as Rendrick says, players have to have a better reason to hang out there than in the outskirts.  If I log in and my chars in Barovia and theres no-one else around to RP with?  Ill run back to Vallaki.

I think a one way travel to Barovia for a premium isnt a silly idea... Like a caravan one way for 500g ^_^

[hugolino]

I think a one way travel to Barovia for a premium isnt a silly idea... Like a caravan one way for 500g ^_^

I don't understand this statement. The caravan already offers trips to Barovia (near Barovia Village at the pools). Do you mean one-way trips to the Outskirts? That would seem reasonable as there already is a Vistani camp there.

[WildPirate13]

Do you mean one-way trips to the Outskirts? That would seem reasonable as there already is a Vistani camp there.

I agree if there is a chance for a second real hub to form it would help the issue. Not in favor of Barovia as a hub myself. Ocr is an issue for many.

[ethinos]

Do you mean one-way trips to the Outskirts? That would seem reasonable as there already is a Vistani camp there.

I agree if there is a chance for a second real hub to form it would help the issue.

Ok, I keep seeing folks saying that fast travel will make having a roleplaying (or meetup/hanging-out) hub elsewhere more attractive. With the idea of having the hub(s) elsewhere, why is returning to Vallaki that important? I'm truly curious and would like to see the ideas behind this. The purpose of the hub relocation is that you'd be unlikely to come back very often, and thus making travel back (fast or not) infrequent. If you had plenty of roleplaying and dungeoning opportunities at the new hubs, why else are you coming back, that begs the need for fast travel?

Not in favor of Barovia as a hub myself. Ocr is an issue for many.

Many? I'm not so sure about that. Folks with a high enough OCR that results in becoming a pariah to Barovian NPC's/PC's are and always will be in a small minority. Also, outcasts in and around Vallaki have to worry about OCR, too. Unless you are talking about cellar/sewer dwellers, and they aren't exactly the focus of this relocation. They are usually in the Drain and not in the Outskirts anyways. There's always the Mist Camp, and Port-A-Lucine for high OCR folks. OCR sucks, but you earned it and should expect roleplaying opportunites to reflect that. That's why my 'ban (with a 25 OCR) is living as a hermit in the mountains.

[hugolino]

Do you mean one-way trips to the Outskirts? That would seem reasonable as there already is a Vistani camp there.

I agree if there is a chance for a second real hub to form it would help the issue.

Ok, I keep seeing folks saying that fast travel will make having a roleplaying (or meetup/hanging-out) hub elsewhere more attractive. With the idea of having the hub(s) elsewhere, why is returning to Vallaki that important? I'm truly curious and would like to see the ideas behind this.

I would guess it is as simple as reducing the "cost" of spending time at the Mist Camp. One of the intangible costs is the time it then takes to travel back to the Outskirts/Vallaki whether for player company, crafting materials or whatever. By making it faster to return, you make the Mist Camps more appealing because the "cost" is reduced. Making the travel one-way favors higher level players, who have less difficulty making it to the Vistani camp at the pools in the first place.

I have a better (in my opinion) suggestion. Instead of having a one-way trip back to the Outskirts camp of Vistani, why not have one-way trips to areas where crafting materials might be found? That seems more practical to me honestly.

[Aahz]

Ok, I keep seeing folks saying that fast travel will make having a roleplaying (or meetup/hanging-out) hub elsewhere more attractive. With the idea of having the hub(s) elsewhere, why is returning to Vallaki that important? I'm truly curious and would like to see the ideas behind this. The purpose of the hub relocation is that you'd be unlikely to come back very often, and thus making travel back (fast or not) infrequent. If you had plenty of roleplaying and dungeoning opportunities at the new hubs, why else are you coming back, that begs the need for fast travel?

Two reasons off the top of my head.

1.)  Customers for Crafters. Crafters are the means for newer characters getting decent equipment

2.) There are many IC areas close to the outskirts that cannot be easily refocused to another area. The Dwarven mine, the Elven Village, The Drain. If you want to attract characters that are based on one of these areas to different place a fast and relatively low cost travel option would help quite a bit.

[Axra]

What i meant was fast travel -from- the outskirts.  There really doesnt need to be fast travel to the outskirts, theres already enough people there.  If the fast travel to Barovia Village or Tser Pool from the outskirts was available at a price most low levels would refuse to pay, then it would easily make it more attractive to higher levels because its much easier to access.  And the return to Vallaki would require the nice long walk we have all come to love soooo much

[respawnaholic]

People would just stand in the outskirts and wont go anywhere.

One day he'll get it.

[dutchy]

ppl should reallly really forget about the time to travel its getting old.

acces thats the whole difrance what that fool wildpirate posted a page ago is correct.

even if you stand in the outskirts you know you can go crafting or go to town watch ppl walk by trade uhhh the temple  the inn factions the country itself.

it alas beats any hub we got atm, even if the mist camp is alterd  wich great ideas are given it wont change much   there would just be more options.

fact still is  the outskirts is as central as it comes  and central places simply have the largest activity.

so if you want the mist camp to be of any use copy paste the outskirts vallaki elf town the temple the inn the resources for craftin and the factions   alter it a bit and voila it might stand a chance vs barovia vallaki outskirts.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Could people please easen up a bit on the I-know-better-attitude? It's disheartening to read, and I'm sure the torches and pitchforks would come out instantly if we as developers imposed the same attitude. I imagine not many of you have tried building large PWs, so it's not very fitting to lock yourself in the lecturing attitude. And unless we can actually discuss things (as in weighting both sides equally), we are just moving in circles. Don't just tell people how it's going to be like, but bring forward points that might affect how it'll be like.

By personal experience though, I feel the best we can do at this point - where there's lots of arguments for and against - is to acquire some experiences in game. If you want to help with that, try life as a mist-camp hang about for a time, share what you've learned (this will be especially relevant once the new version is up). If you are not up for participating in that, no one is going to hold that against you. We don't want to force anyone in to using the Mist Camp as a hub. We don't force anyone to use the Western Outskirts as a hub either.