Gold sinks (You have -HOW- much gold?!)

[Jadow_Valroth]

In my years of playing here, if it's one thing I've noticed there isn't many of, it's gold sinks. There are multiple ways to bring currency into the world. Monsters, Treasure, Minks and Rats, and delivery quests. But there are very few which take currency out of the server, and by that I mean, remove the gold completely.

And people tend to sit around with ten's of, if not hundreds of thousands of gold on them.

Buying things from NPCs is really the only way to do this, and there isn't -that- much that is needed to be bought from an NPC.

So I suggest people chime in here, and suggest items that could be sold on a vendor that people would buy, that are consumable, and would remove gold from the server.

My first suggestion is, Diamonds!

These drop -far- to often as loot. I have more diamonds than I know what to do with. I think removing all diamonds, or if not -all-, then the vast majority from loot tables, and placing vendors which sell these in nearby towns, that this alone could be a nice gold sink for the server.

[ethinos]

Torgan has nearly 50k in the bank from selling his crafted armor and weapons, but he spent waaaay more than that leveling up in his crafting skills. I've noticed that my poor characters tend to be leveling up in a craft. They have to spend money on crafting supplies, and aren't actively questing or dungeoning.

As far as suggestions for gold sinks, though I doubt they'll be popular... 

1. Have weapons and armor receive wear and tear from long periods of use that takes a smith/armorer to repair.
2. A generic spell component system for casters that use components. (See below.)
3. Add a gold and jewelry gilding system that does mostly cosmetic things. You'd have to pay the gilder and supply the gold/gems. Double whammy.
4. Increase the gold cost of raising dead via NPCs. Resurrection can be silly expensive, but raise dead is awfully cheap. $2000 for a level 20 is pocket change.
5. Have a mandatory tithe for religious PCs.
6. Membership dues for certain factions/player groups.
7. Taxes?

As for the spell component system, I'm not necessarily talking about collecting things from the server like an herbalist does (though maybe they can craft them for resale). Just a consumable bag of "Spell components" that gets used up depending on the amount of spell levels you use. Make it the same size of a gem pouch, and a weight of .5 pound, and allow it to cast, say, 50 spell levels worth of spells with components. Think of it as similar to how an archer has a stack of arrows in his inventory that he expends as he shoots. If you keep it generic like this, it's not nearly as intrusive.

[respawnaholic]

Torgan has nearly 50k in the bank from selling his crafted armor and weapons, but he spent waaaay more than that leveling up in his crafting skills. I've noticed that my poor characters tend to be leveling up in a craft. They have to spend money on crafting supplies, and aren't actively questing or dungeoning.

As far as suggestions for gold sinks, though I doubt they'll be popular...  

1. Have weapons and armor receive wear and tear from long periods of use that takes a smith/armorer to repair.
2. A generic spell component system for casters that use components. (See below.)
3. Add a gold and jewelry gilding system that does mostly cosmetic things. You'd have to pay the gilder and supply the gold/gems. Double whammy.
4. Increase the gold cost of raising dead via NPCs. Resurrection can be silly expensive, but raise dead is awfully cheap. $2000 for a level 20 is pocket change.
5. Have a mandatory tithe for religious PCs.
6. Membership dues for certain factions/player groups.
7. Taxes?

As for the spell component system, I'm not necessarily talking about collecting things from the server like an herbalist does (though maybe they can craft them for resale). Just a consumable bag of "Spell components" that gets used up depending on the amount of spell levels you use. Make it the same size of a gem pouch, and a weight of .5 pound, and allow it to cast, say, 50 spell levels worth of spells with components. Think of it as similar to how an archer has a stack of arrows in his inventory that he expends as he shoots. If you keep it generic like this, it's not nearly as intrusive.

+1 for spell components. )0 for lvls 1-2, 1 for lvls 3-5, 2 for lvls 6-8, 3 for lvl 9. This shouldnt impact being able to cast spells when you need to, but would cut down on frivolus spellcasting.

[Telkar]

Now this is funny. While this pops up, this does too. 

Low lvls have nothing to do with gold sinks. They need more gold! Hmm, what could be the answer to that. Maybe working on getting gold from the high lvls to the low lvls? Lots of creative ways to do that you know, plus it requires rp interaction between them, and who doesn't want rp?

[Vespertilio]

Some existing gold sinks in game currently:

Modification/customizing of armor/weapons/cloaks/helms and to a far lesser extent the dyes consumed.

Consumable crafted items such as potions and varnishes sold by pcs

Auctions

IC charitable donations to temples, churches, the orphanage and so on

Sponsoring an event for charity

Faction Dues (Vardo has this)

Taxes taken out from bank deposits

Taking up a craft

Sponsoring a pc in a craft

Hiring a lower level pc to gather resources from a low level area for your own pcs crafting needs

Gathering minions and paying them to do your bidding



From my experiences playing a pc merchant character there is a wide range of what characters have in funds/resources.  Some characters find 2,000 for a one time purchase of an item like a helm to be so prohibitive that putting the item on hold, payment plans and bartering are worked out to help facilitate a sale.  Other characters have few needs/expenses and easily accumulate gold but find little to spend it on, this is particularly prevalent among the mage classes. 

  Nothing prevents characters who possess more money than they know what to do with, from doing something proactive/self serving with it or donating/spending it as would fit the character.

[Ophie Kitty]

IC charitable donations to temples, churches, the orphanage and so on
Sponsoring an event for charity
Faction Dues (Vardo has this)
Taxes taken out from bank deposits
Taking up a craft
Sponsoring a pc in a craft
Hiring a lower level pc to gather resources from a low level area for your own pcs crafting needs
Gathering minions and paying them to do your bidding


Gold sinks are purchases or tasks that remove gold from the server- not disperse it between players. So, buying things from shops and the like. Out of the list you gave, the only ones that are actually sinks are Donations, Dues, Crafts, and Bank Deposits.. which, isn't even a fraction of what a PC will see in their lifetime.

[Vespertilio]

Ah well then.  I guess I misunderstood what a gold sink was, thanks for the correction.  I'd personally rather see players move gold around, invest it in crafts which is a sink, but for ic and rp based reasons that facilitate dynamics over simply siphoning off gold for no real reason than the perception some people have too much so we must force removal of what is deemed too much from them without ever affecting where the gold is coming from.  Some characters will always have "too much" because of hoarding or other motivations where having too much/more is a goal in itself.

[ethinos]

A true gold sink would indeed remove the gold from circulation. However, I can see increasing the number of ways of keeping the gold circulating and not sitting idle in your pocket to be another way of keeping folks from getting outrageously wealthy. As long as we create more gold sinks, that gold is destined to be removed from circulation eventually; just not in one step.

Edit: To clarify - Right now, money sits idle a lot of the time with older characters. Figuring out ways of keeping that money moving is good; getting it removed from circulation is better.

[Jay]

Not to sound all confrontational, but -why- do higher level characters need a gold sink? Is there something wrong with having a lot of money? 'd much rather the gold stored be used productively then turned over for some arbitrary reason. (That does not discriminate on how much weath you actually have.)

But since you asked i will propose my idea.

Have craftable reagents purchasable in Port Au Lucine for a massively inflated price. Allowing not only people to craft in Le Port, but also have a use for their stockpiled moneys that actually sees some kind of return.

[ethinos]

Without those sinks, money eventually becomes worthless and ruins the player economy.

[Bad_Bud]

Gold has never become completely worthless on this server.  I have plenty of trouble keeping enough of it around, because I always find ways to spend it.

The rarest items in the game will still only be traded for other rare items, not gold.  Removing more gold isn't going to do much of anything.  I think the economy is fine as it is.

The only thing that bothers me are the relative prices of potions and varnishes, but those prices are dictated by the cost to produce, not by how much gold people have stockpiled.

[Jadow_Valroth]

Right, a true gold sink removes gold from the system all together. As it is now, there are very few systems that do this.

I can't say I'm a fan of spell componets. Never used them in my PnP games either. They always just seemed like a hassle to me.

I'd like to come up with ideas that effect game play as little as possible.

I think raise dead could be upped in cost, but only after a certain level, say, 10. At that point it costs 200gp a level. So it is still affordable to low level players.

I think an issue that could help put money in the hands of low level players, is have an NPC in the outskirts are, that offers just as much money when you sell items as the one in the mist camp.

[Bad_Bud]

Every time there is a discussion about the amount of gold floating in the world, I have noticed the topic is started by someone talking about how others always have too much gold.  Others having too much gold is not a problem.  The only problem is that the person raising the complaint has too little gold.  If having too much gold ever became a problem, we'd see players purchasing unlimited amounts of the priciest disposables from NPC vendors, and players would be tossing hundreds of thousands of gold on the floor saying, "This stuff's worthless."  But I haven't seen that.  Those that do have a ton of gold are often reluctant to give it away, because it does hold a value, even if only for some auction somewhere down the road.

Even the richest of folks, I notice, generally raise their friends from the dead using their friends' gold stash, not their own.

[DM Tarokka]

Be creative and I will be glad to rob all your gold.

[ethinos]

Gold has never become completely worthless on this server.

The rarest items in the game will still only be traded for other rare items, not gold.  Removing more gold isn't going to do much of anything.

Never been completely worthless? I think this already proves that gold isn't of much value, as it doesn't have much purchasing power. This is further reinforced by the fact that rare items are only traded for others. When money has no purchasing power, it's usually a result of too much currency in circulation. This actually happens in the real world. It's called hyperinflation. The way to fix this? Removing the gold in circulation.

I think the economy is fine as it is.

I think you'll find a lot of people that will disagree with that. While the economy functions fine for you, other folks may experience something far different.

The only thing that bothers me are the relative prices of potions and varnishes, but those prices are dictated by the cost to produce, not by how much gold people have stockpiled.

This bothers you? Crafts are one of the few systems in-game that actually function somewhat logically when it comes to economics. If you think potions are too high or too low, then alterations within the crafting process can change that.

Edited to add:

Every time there is a discussion about the amount of gold floating in the world, I have noticed the topic is started by someone talking about how others always have too much gold.  Others having too much gold is not a problem.  The only problem is that the person raising the complaint has too little gold.  If having too much gold ever became a problem, we'd see players purchasing unlimited amounts of the priciest disposables from NPC vendors, and players would be tossing hundreds of thousands of gold on the floor saying, "This stuff's worthless."  But I haven't seen that.  Those that do have a ton of gold are often reluctant to give it away, because it does hold a value, even if only for some auction somewhere down the road.

Even the richest of folks, I notice, generally raise their friends from the dead using their friends' gold stash, not their own.

The OP and I don't have any problem acquiring gold, nor am I guessing poor, so that argument is without merit and irrelevant. Some complaints actually arise from a real issue, and not simple jealousy.

Also, I've always used the dead folks' gold (if they have enough to begin with) for raises because dying should be a punishment. The burden for raising a fellow companion shouldn't fall on the survivors.

[Aahz]

Put me down for the economy system is fine just as it is (surprise surprise). 

[dutchy]

the whole in game economics went to hell at some point.

things are rather pricy well the good things are so in return  herb gatherers ask the jackpot for their herb gathering   wich in return makes the herbalists charge extra for potions   same goes for miners and the smiths etc etc etc.

i'm normaly all for solution posting but i got no clue what so ever to counter this as i do not see the playerbase changing in this behaviour at all   greed is a common thing and we all think aaah if i have a minimum of 4k i'l be fine    hmmmm 4.5 works better   no wait that last item costed me 6k maybe i should keep that so i dont have to scrounge the remaining money,  so it goes up and up unnoticed and greed takes over even if its harmless and minor but all combined it got us to a point we are in now.

[Masquerade Mask]

Sounds like someone needs to rob the bank and then be locked away in castle ravenloft with the fangs

[WildPirate13]

I have never had more than 32k on me at any time. The total amount I would say in fang aka gold I have had as a character would be no more than 150k starting from level 1 to 18. My character type benefactor does not help my fang bottom line however...

Appraise skill helps ... but I could not afford many ranks...

I find it very hard to accumulate fang/gold..

We don't need more reductions.. really from magic/gold/ to treasure. If anything we need an increase in fang/spawns/treasure and less nerfing of Arcane magic that is not necromancy of course...

I spent days finding what little I could for fang... and my result was fair.. but I know if I go to Vardo auctions I will most likely be outbid on anything good...

Reducing resources only gives advantage to established players.

[Bad_Bud]

It is a shame for me to have to start responding in multi-quote style, because I think breaking down each sentence detracts from the use of common sense and seeing the big picture, but here I am.

Never been completely worthless? I think this already proves that gold isn't of much value, as it doesn't have much purchasing power. This is further reinforced by the fact that rare items are only traded for others. When money has no purchasing power, it's usually a result of too much currency in circulation. This actually happens in the real world. It's called hyperinflation. The way to fix this? Removing the gold in circulation.

Sometimes I think you just reply for the sake of replying, without stopping to think about what you're really saying.  The rarest of items.  You're arguing that because you can't use gold to buy the rarest item in the game, that gold "doesn't have much purchasing power."  Money doesn't buy everything, not even in the real world.  This economy isn't "hyperinflated" because I can't buy a +3 amulet or +2 gi.

I think you'll find a lot of people that will disagree with that. While the economy functions fine for you, other folks may experience something far different.

People will say any economy isn't functioning for them if they don't have everything they could ever possibly want.  I thought you were hardcore.  People shouldn't be catered to because they think their thousand gold doesn't buy as much as it should.

The only thing that bothers me are the relative prices of potions and varnishes, but those prices are dictated by the cost to produce, not by how much gold people have stockpiled.

This bothers you? Crafts are one of the few systems in-game that actually function somewhat logically when it comes to economics. If you think potions are too high or too low, then alterations within the crafting process can change that.

It does, but you've misunderstood my reason why.  But this clarifying would have little to do with the overall discussion.

Also, I've always used the dead folks' gold (if they have enough to begin with) for raises because dying should be a punishment. The burden for raising a fellow companion shouldn't fall on the survivors.

You argue my point for me.  How would it be a punishment or a burden on anybody if gold held no value?


I don't think you understand how this works.

When we talk about players who have insurmountable amounts of gold, we're talking about players that sell.  Those rich players are rich because of other players, not because there's a ton of gold everywhere and it's easy to farm.  That's about as effective as a video game economy can get.

What do you think players are doing standing outside in the outskirts all day with items on the ground?  As long as players are selling items in exchange for gold, gold has value.  If I know I can buy a stack of true seeing potions for 2000 gold, 2000 gold has a specific value to me.

[Jadow_Valroth]

Any of my characters I regularally play have anywhere from 20k-50k on them at any given time. I usually tend to try to buy a bunch of potions or varnish to keep this down, which in turns makes me feel like a big of an ass for buying someone out of stock.

I know of people with literally hundreds of thousands of coins, and nothing to do with them. Once you have the best gear there is for your character, which, isn't -that- hard to aquire considering there really isn't awhole lot of different sets of magical equipment. Your pretty much left with limited ways to spend the gold you aquire, and even less ways that will remove the gold from the system completely.

There is an economy problem on the server as far as gold coming into the system and then never leaving it. Only being passed between players, some people just may not notice it as much as others.

[Bad_Bud]

Sounds like your characters are self-sufficient, but that's a personal problem.  Taking an arbitrary amount of gold from everyone by adding a gold sink isn't going to make gold have any more value to you, because with what little you would still have, you still wouldn't have anything you'd want to buy.

[ethinos]

It is a shame for me to have to start responding in multi-quote style, because I think breaking down each sentence detracts from the use of common sense and seeing the big picture, but here I am.

Think what you wish, but this is the easiest and clearest way to debate a specific point. It has nothing to do with common sense or a big picture.

Sometimes I think you just reply for the sake of replying, without stopping to think about what you're really saying.  The rarest of items.  You're arguing that because you can't use gold to buy the rarest item in the game, that gold "doesn't have much purchasing power."  Money doesn't buy everything, not even in the real world.  This economy isn't "hyperinflated" because I can't buy a +3 amulet or +2 gi.

I'm at work. I have a lot of time on my hands, and debating on the forum is my way of staying sane. Seriously though... Money can buy everything in a real world economy. That's why things sell for millions, billions, and trillions of dollars. There may be some folks that will hold out for a trade, but that's usually only in a case where they know the other person has no where else to turn to for getting that particular item. The value of gold on the server has been watered down from an overabundance. Now, not everyone has a crap ton of it, but that's not the issue of this thread, nor does it disprove that we are suffering from hyperinflation. The fact is that you can't buy said amulet or gi because of hyperinflation. Money has become less useful and folks want a more valuable commodity in exchange for rare items.

People will say any economy isn't functioning for them if they don't have everything they could ever possibly want.  I thought you were hardcore.  People shouldn't be catered to because they think their thousand gold doesn't buy as much as it should.

I am hardcore, and not catering to anyone. I want to see more realistic sytems and simulations, especially those affected by our playerbase's influences. I am also saying our economy isn't functioning properly.

You argue my point for me.  How would it be a punishment or a burden on anybody if gold held no value?

I am not saying the gold had no value. Whether it was 1 fang, or 1 million fangs, I would use the dead character's money for the raise. It's the principle of the matter, not the expense.

I don't think you understand how this works.

When we talk about players who have insurmountable amounts of gold, we're talking about players that sell.  Those rich players are rich because of other players, not because there's a ton of gold everywhere and it's easy to farm.  That's about as effective as a video game economy can get.

What do you think players are doing standing outside in the outskirts all day with items on the ground?  As long as players are selling items in exchange for gold, gold has value.  If I know I can buy a stack of true seeing potions for 2000 gold, 2000 gold has a specific value to me.

I understand quite well. The problem isn't the fact that rich characters are getting rich selling things. The problem is that they have little to spend it on. (Casters even less so, because they need less consumables.) Merchants should make money, though, and I don't argue that. I made a lot of money with Torgan selling crafted goods. I earned it. I spent weeks grinding away at smithing and gilding to get to that point. I felt like my time was worth something.

But the economy is messed up. I wouldn't be surprised if on an average day that 50,000 gold pieces are brought into circulation from dungeoning, questing, etc. If we had a stable economy, we'd be sinking just as much every day through expenditures like NPC raises, item customizing, NPC purchases, etc. But that's not the case. Arguing that our current system is "as effective as a video game economy can get" is rediculous when we have Soren and the other Devs that can tinker with the economic systems we have in place.

Sounds like your characters are self-sufficient, but that's a personal problem.  Taking an arbitrary amount of gold from everyone by adding a gold sink isn't going to make gold have any more value to you, because with what little you would still have, you still wouldn't have anything you'd want to buy.

At this point, it seems you are only offering opinions, and not actually debating anything. You also seem ignorant of economics, so there is no point in me debating with you further.

[Vespertilio]

I think this already proves that gold isn't of much value, as it doesn't have much purchasing power. This is further reinforced by the fact that rare items are only traded for others. When money has no purchasing power, it's usually a result of too much currency in circulation.

The primary reason my character prefers to trade rare items for rare is because they are just that, rare.   It also helps to perpetuate a cycle of trade in rarities rp rather than an item is sold for coin one time and done with.  Certain items will always have a value beyond gold face value as I see it because they are limited in number whereas gold can be gotten from a multitude of opportunities in game limited only by player time and drive.  No matter how much a character might pay as a fee for something to be found, it still has to be found and that takes time. Often these rare items are the sort of items put up for auction eventually because demand will always far outweigh supply and it gives more characters a chance/opportunity to own something rare.

Based on the recent auction bidding; players are either far, far less wealthy than in times past right now or far, far more tight with their coins, perhaps both.  Neither of those are indications gold has no value.  The last auction held in game didn't even bring in 40,000 total  which is nothing compared to what auctions two years ago were bringing in, where single items were being sold for upwards of 40,000.  I've seen a lot more low level pcs and pcs of higher level but without large amounts of coin walk away from auctions with an item.  Again, this was something I never saw at auctions two years ago.  

Most potions sold by crafters/merchants are being sold for less than the prices they were before removal from npc merchants.  Certain potions retain value based on the fact that demand is never going to be satisfied by the supply and they require more components/time/resources to gather and skill to make.  I've always been supportive of barter systems or an exchange of skills and resources because they give options to characters who don't have large gold reserves.  Many characters have arrangements where they pick the herbs needed to make the potions they want, then pay a much smaller fee for the brewer to make them.

 Time is a factor in this.  Some characters have more gold or resources because they have spent more time playing or have played for a longer period of time. Some because they are very old characters from a time when gold was far easier to come by than it is currently.  Some players have many alts and split their playtime between more than one pc and those characters have less gold individually for example than a player who focuses on one pc.  These will always be variables, but I don't see variables as inherently being problems.



A lot of players seem to enjoy custom named weapons or items, there have been many suggestions in the past from players wanting an in game system that allowed for this without asking Dms.  It could be turned into an additional and optional pc expense in game if there was an npc who did engraving (name change)at a high price on weapons for example.  

The jeweler's in Port au Lucine, a shop which sells mundane but high priced jewelry such as emerald necklaces, could offer engraving (name and description changes) on rings and necklaces sold by that shop (non magical) at an additional price.  

[LivingWasteland]

Death is a punishment. Huh. Kinda feel sorry for the PCs that mind their own business, during the day, and get offed by some bored evil PC. Punished for minding their own business. Shame on them.