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Author Topic: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes  (Read 5206 times)

Jay

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #25 on: June 03, 2011, 02:40:07 PM »
Judging everything by the standards of Dark/Middle Age Europe is a very narrow point of view to take

That's what Civilisation ratings are for, all Major domains tend to have comparisons for European history. As such if you want to remain true to the setting factoring in things like the history and poulation of Dark/Middle age Europe is important.
Just by playing a nonhuman you're playing something unique and different in a world that is populated by over 95% humans, you don't need to be a 6ft beefcake or a stunning lithe and beautiful supermodel to stand out. Plus, in Barovia the nails that stand out get the hammer first.

Kagetora

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #26 on: June 03, 2011, 08:41:07 PM »
Judging everything by the standards of Dark/Middle Age Europe is a very narrow point of view to take

That's what Civilisation ratings are for, all Major domains tend to have comparisons for European history. As such if you want to remain true to the setting factoring in things like the history and poulation of Dark/Middle age Europe is important.
Just by playing a nonhuman you're playing something unique and different in a world that is populated by over 95% humans, you don't need to be a 6ft beefcake or a stunning lithe and beautiful supermodel to stand out. Plus, in Barovia the nails that stand out get the hammer first.

And not all PC's are from the Major Domains with comparisons to European History.  In fact, I would say Natives tend to be in the minority.  I guess the real question is, why do you care?  I pointed out how the PC's are the "exceptional," how the Mists pull in the "exceptional," how the natives who join them are also the "exceptional" (as opposed to some Port Fop or Barovian Farmer hiding in his hut), and also how the VAST majority of PC's don't even have a description or have one that mentions nothing about height, and so could be considered to constitute the "average.".

Are the dozen or so people wandering around claiming to be 6"8" or so "ruining your immersion?"

I mean, really.  Its a description someone typed.  It means something to them, and their enjoyment.  It has ZERO effect on the game.  Is this really an issue?

tzaeru

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #27 on: June 03, 2011, 10:12:52 PM »
Judging everything by the standards of Dark/Middle Age Europe is a very narrow point of view to take

That's what Civilisation ratings are for, all Major domains tend to have comparisons for European history. As such if you want to remain true to the setting factoring in things like the history and poulation of Dark/Middle age Europe is important.
Just by playing a nonhuman you're playing something unique and different in a world that is populated by over 95% humans, you don't need to be a 6ft beefcake or a stunning lithe and beautiful supermodel to stand out. Plus, in Barovia the nails that stand out get the hammer first.

And not all PC's are from the Major Domains with comparisons to European History.  In fact, I would say Natives tend to be in the minority.  I guess the real question is, why do you care?  I pointed out how the PC's are the "exceptional," how the Mists pull in the "exceptional," how the natives who join them are also the "exceptional" (as opposed to some Port Fop or Barovian Farmer hiding in his hut), and also how the VAST majority of PC's don't even have a description or have one that mentions nothing about height, and so could be considered to constitute the "average.".

Are the dozen or so people wandering around claiming to be 6"8" or so "ruining your immersion?"

I mean, really.  Its a description someone typed.  It means something to them, and their enjoyment.  It has ZERO effect on the game.  Is this really an issue?

I guess I could pretty safely say that no, it isn't an issue to any of us. We can still find it funny, though!
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ethinos

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #28 on: June 03, 2011, 10:19:33 PM »
Are the dozen or so people wandering around claiming to be 6"8" or so "ruining your immersion?"

I mean, really.  Its a description someone typed.  It means something to them, and their enjoyment.  It has ZERO effect on the game.  Is this really an issue?

Hmm. The only reason I mention this is because I'm sure the players are simply perpetuating the stereotype of the fighter being a larger than ordinary man. The problem comes in when everyone that is a fighter is suddenly 6'6". When everyone is 6'6", then no one is the biggest fighter. So, their next PC becomes 6'9". Then everyone needs to be 6'9. Repeat ad nauseum.

We'll have only half-giant fighters eventually! :lol:



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Jadow_Valroth

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #29 on: June 04, 2011, 03:04:53 AM »
I would simply love seeing this on the server. It would add just that much more life to it. If the task was somewhat simple, and could be explained and was only rather repitive, perhaps a team of players could volunteer to take on the task? Or, as was mentioned before, has anyone tried to contact the creator of the one that worked with CEP to see if there was an automated way to achieve it?

Average Height by Race, from the D&D 3.5 Players Handbook Descriptions.

Humans - 5ft - "a little over six feet tall"
Dwarves - 4ft - 4 1/2 ft.
Elves - 4 1/2 - 5 1/2 ft.
Gnomes - 3 - 3 1/2 ft.
Half-Elves - "From under five feet to about six feet tall".
Half Orcs - "Between six and seven feet all".
Halflings - "About 3 feet tall"
Jadow Valroth - Fighter/Rogue
Chanler Dermar - Cleric of Pelor
Ravish Yale - Wizard
Victor Malvaious - Paladin
Kaliev Valen - Druid
Jerrick Malas - Fighter/WM
Myth Valandil - Bard

Threefold

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #30 on: June 04, 2011, 03:14:20 AM »
Hmm. The only reason I mention this is because I'm sure the players are simply perpetuating the stereotype of the fighter being a larger than ordinary man. The problem comes in when everyone that is a fighter is suddenly 6'6". When everyone is 6'6", then no one is the biggest fighter. So, their next PC becomes 6'9". Then everyone needs to be 6'9. Repeat ad nauseum.

Height creep? XD

dark_majico

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #31 on: June 04, 2011, 04:07:54 AM »
I think its too much work. We've played this game long enough to accept that the engine has some flaws and limitations because of its age, models and heads are one of them. We all have good enough imaginations to picture people being different heights, its just the same as people using the same heads, we dont really imagine everyone looking like clones do we? I dont.
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Jay

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #32 on: June 04, 2011, 04:42:02 AM »
Judging everything by the standards of Dark/Middle Age Europe is a very narrow point of view to take

That's what Civilisation ratings are for, all Major domains tend to have comparisons for European history. As such if you want to remain true to the setting factoring in things like the history and poulation of Dark/Middle age Europe is important.
Just by playing a nonhuman you're playing something unique and different in a world that is populated by over 95% humans, you don't need to be a 6ft beefcake or a stunning lithe and beautiful supermodel to stand out. Plus, in Barovia the nails that stand out get the hammer first.

And not all PC's are from the Major Domains with comparisons to European History.  In fact, I would say Natives tend to be in the minority.  I guess the real question is, why do you care?  I pointed out how the PC's are the "exceptional," how the Mists pull in the "exceptional," how the natives who join them are also the "exceptional" (as opposed to some Port Fop or Barovian Farmer hiding in his hut), and also how the VAST majority of PC's don't even have a description or have one that mentions nothing about height, and so could be considered to constitute the "average.".

Are the dozen or so people wandering around claiming to be 6"8" or so "ruining your immersion?"

I mean, really.  Its a description someone typed.  It means something to them, and their enjoyment.  It has ZERO effect on the game.  Is this really an issue?

I guess I could pretty safely say that no, it isn't an issue to any of us. We can still find it funny, though!

Yup, pretty much. Also what Ethinos said.

Anon123

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #33 on: September 01, 2011, 02:31:55 PM »
If someway this could be done, it would be really immersive.

Nemien Callishan

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #34 on: September 02, 2011, 11:55:26 AM »
Plus every character would probably just be the largest phenotype, so everyone would still look the same.  :P

Not really. Nemien likes being 5'0". In fact her height is one of the few things she's not insecure about :).

Now if we were playing NWN2 where model scale can be adjusted (so you don't need 4 different sized versions of the same model) that'd be great but unfortunately we are not.

Every warrior type does seem that way doesn't it? Apparently, if you are under 6 foot, you can't be a warrior. However, I like options.

Durak's 3'8".
« Last Edit: September 02, 2011, 11:57:36 AM by Nemien Callishan »

Nemien Callishan

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #35 on: September 02, 2011, 12:02:55 PM »
and I would say 50% of them say nothing except "Uninjured/Neutral," and of the remaining 50% that I see less than 20% of those actually list a height.  Most are just simple physical descriptions, some are page-long narrative histories.  Yes, a lot of the people who put heights in their descriptions would be considered "abnormal," but the rest of the people WITHOUT a description or a height could easily be considered to fall within the average, yes?

Don't forget the swathe of default descriptions. I usualy get as far as "Your only hope of fame and f-" before wanting to shout "shut up!" at the screen. It makes me want to berrate people for not being creative but I don't :).

MistJumper

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #36 on: September 02, 2011, 02:34:09 PM »
with the sub-race system already in place, could a new sub-race for all races be added, that being the sub-race of _Human? If such a system was added, then you could have dwarf peno-typed humans, Elf sized humans, and huge half orc sized humans. It would take some scripting, as human bonus/feats and abilities would have to be scripted to override the game, but since the NWNX is being implemented, It is possible.

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #37 on: September 02, 2011, 02:39:33 PM »
Tinkering with phenotypes is complicated because it can break compatibility with armor/clothing appearances depending on the changes being made. Changes to height would be one of those changes that would mess things up, because you'd have to stretch/shrink the armor models to fit the new tall/short phenotypes.

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2011, 02:27:27 PM »
Only way around this is having a static phenotype like a human in the Toolset. Not sure, but I think their armor is stuck to their models. So if you can make a werewolf bigger, I'm sure those can be bigger too. Which would leave everyone with practically the same character models. Which of course would suck. It's one option, just not a pretty one.

I for one wouldn't want to give the developers such a hard time for such a little pay-off. There are exceptions to the norm in terms of height, but come on, weeks/months work for a few inches? Let's be a bit realistic there.

If a male human is truly so large, play a Half-Orc, give him human colored skin and a human-looking head. Done. (If that is allowed of course)

Winter83

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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #39 on: September 06, 2011, 11:32:22 AM »
I'm allright with the things we have currently, pretty much got used to it. About über-heights and immersion, if tend to react on heights mentioned in the description and a towering figures can be really demoralizing....neck hurts always looking up  :lol:

Not to mention falling in love to every super-model character....so yes actually these petty things have some effect on some of us roleplay....at least it has on mine. (side note: I usually just ignore unrealistic unhuman descriptions, like the unmatching eye colors, and 7' height or the beauty matched to a godess'.)

What might be able to solve the problems though and add to immersion, if we could use the human race with other races' models. So a half-orc model, human race, for a bulky man...just give him some normal human head, or a dwarf model if you really want to play a midget who's not a dwarf.
Extremities like such, would likely throw the character into the caliban faction. (Question: a 7 feet tall human is considered a caliban no? As it's just unnaturally huge!! )  :lol:


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Re: Adjusting the shape/size of PC phenotypes
« Reply #40 on: September 06, 2011, 12:05:45 PM »
(Question: a 7 feet tall human is considered a caliban no? As it's just unnaturally huge!! )  :lol:

I would think so - at least a native born. Half-Orc or rediculously large human from some other plane will still be treated as one. So it doesn't matter at all I'd say.

This got me a bit thinking though. There are ways to make a tiny, huge character by premaking him/her in the toolset, making it an NPC-like character then ingame change the phenotype to that NPC. A large problem is that you'll never be able to change clothes without DM help.