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Author Topic: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self  (Read 7111 times)

Budly

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #25 on: May 27, 2011, 11:55:09 AM »
What are we aiming for her? Making mages totally useless?

Rather leave them be and toss in a application if they are so overpowered I say. Won't happen but it's less of an issue then changing every single spell and making the script more complicated!

ethinos

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #26 on: May 27, 2011, 12:05:13 PM »
When you polymorph, you are just morphing yourself into the shape of something. You aren't becoming it. I think you need to understand that there is a significant difference. You don't gain special innate abilities because you change your shape. It is a completely physical change that just makes you a poor copy of another creature.

Also, in PnP you can't morph into a zombie or any other kind of undead.
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Kagetora

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #27 on: May 27, 2011, 03:10:31 PM »
When you polymorph, you are just morphing yourself into the shape of something. You aren't becoming it. I think you need to understand that there is a significant difference. You don't gain special innate abilities because you change your shape. It is a completely physical change that just makes you a poor copy of another creature.

Also, in PnP you can't morph into a zombie or any other kind of undead.

I tend to agree with this.  You end up with the basic physical shape, and as a result of that, changed stats (in the same way that, say Bull's Strength or Cat's Grace changes you stats, i.e. magically), some new "natural" attacks, and perhaps some AC bonus due to natural armor.

You don't actually BECOME the creature.  Or gain any of what could be considered "super-normal" abilities it possesses.  I.e. Regeneration, for example.

Thats what Shapechange is for.

What WOULD be nice, though, is a spell between the two of them...say, around 7th level, that WAS a better type of Polymorph Self.  Granting you the actual abilities and such, ala Shapechange, but not into Balors, Red Dragons, and the like.  A toned-down Shapechange/souped-up Polymorph.

ethinos

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #28 on: May 27, 2011, 03:42:38 PM »
I want a polymorph spell that will allow my caliban to morph into a Barovian so he can enter Vallaki and the Village of Barovia at will. :shifty:

You'd think polymorph self would be perfect for that.
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Ophie Kitty

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #29 on: May 27, 2011, 03:54:58 PM »
I want a polymorph spell that will allow my caliban to morph into a Barovian so he can enter Vallaki and the Village of Barovia at will. :shifty:

You'd think polymorph self would be perfect for that.

I'd really like to see these sort of aspects to Poly self, rather than its combative shapes currently.

ethinos

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #30 on: May 27, 2011, 03:59:21 PM »
In PnP, I always used Polymorph Self as a utility spell. I had spells for combat. But one spell allowed me to fly, swim, pass off as another race, etc. Being an Odo wannabe made it much more useful in a tactical sense.
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Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #31 on: May 27, 2011, 04:10:08 PM »
You guys, we made this change over two years ago. Why are you bringing it up now?

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ethinos

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #32 on: May 27, 2011, 04:15:11 PM »
Maybe the better question would be why the original poster cares when the poster doesn't even play a wizard?

PS. I still want my Barovian form. Please?? 8)
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Romar Notten

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #33 on: May 27, 2011, 09:21:14 PM »
Maybe the better question would be why the original poster cares when the poster doesn't even play a wizard?

PS. I still want my Barovian form. Please?? 8)

Polymorph Mink!  :ohnoes:

High_Priestess_of_Tinsel

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #34 on: May 28, 2011, 03:44:21 AM »
Maybe the better question would be why the original poster cares when the poster doesn't even play a wizard?

Why is that an issue, prey tell?

You guys, we made this change over two years ago. Why are you bringing it up now?
I must have misread the date on the post as a recent one when I clicked on the thread to see what new change had been made, my apologies. The change was made before I even started playing here. Don't I feel like a total dumbass now.  :oops:

Guess we could change the topic to changing the forms of the morphs since that seems to be a popular idea and one I agree with, also removing zombies from the spell since they are a template.

dark_majico

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #35 on: May 29, 2011, 04:52:58 AM »
I want a polymorph spell that will allow my caliban to morph into a Barovian so he can enter Vallaki and the Village of Barovia at will. :shifty:

You'd think polymorph self would be perfect for that.

I'd really like to see these sort of aspects to Poly self, rather than its combative shapes currently.

Couldnt you use this spell instead?

Quote
Alter Self


Transmutation


Level:
Asn 2, Brd 2, Sor/Wiz 2

Components:
V, S


Casting time:
1 standard action


Range:
Personal


Target:
You


Duration:
10 min./level (D)


You assume the form of a creature of the same type as your normal form. The new form must be within one size category of your normal size. The maximum HD of an assumed form is equal to your caster level, to a maximum of 5 HD at 5th level. You can change into a member of your own kind or even into yourself.
 
You retain your own ability scores. Your class and level, hit points, alignment, base attack bonus, and base save bonuses all remain the same. You retain all supernatural and spell-like special attacks and qualities of your normal form, except for those requiring a body part that the new form does not have (such as a mouth for a breath weapon or eyes for a gaze attack).
 
You keep all extraordinary special attacks and qualities derived from class levels, but you lose any from your normal form that are not derived from class levels.
 
If the new form is capable of speech, you can communicate normally. You retain any spellcasting ability you had in your original form, but the new form must be able to speak intelligibly (that is, speak a language) to use verbal components and must have limbs capable of fine manipulation to use somatic or material components.
 
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
 
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
 
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.
 
You can freely designate the new form’s minor physical qualities (such as hair color, hair texture, and skin color) within the normal ranges for a creature of that kind. The new form’s significant physical qualities (such as height, weight, and gender) are also under your control, but they must fall within the norms for the new form’s kind. You are effectively disguised as an average member of the new form’s race. If you use this spell to create a disguise, you get a +10 bonus on your Disguise check.
 
When the change occurs, your equipment, if any, either remains worn or held by the new form (if it is capable of wearing or holding the item), or melds into the new form and becomes nonfunctional. When you revert to your true form, any objects previously melded into the new form reappear in the same location on your body they previously occupied and are once again functional. Any new items you wore in the assumed form and can’t wear in your normal form fall off and land at your feet; any that you could wear in either form or carry in a body part common to both forms at the time of reversion are still held in the same way. Any part of the body or piece of equipment that is separated from the whole reverts to its true form.
 

It would be great if we could have a small handful of spells that are really useful for RP potential that are not possible with our current spell list, added, the best way would probably require another hak to be added to avoid head aches, and I understand the DEV team want to keep custom haks to a minimum but maybe one extra small hak wouldnt be unreasonable, or perhaps merging an exsisting one if thats possible, I dont actualy know.

Kagetora

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #36 on: May 29, 2011, 01:09:05 PM »
I think that is the longest spell description I have ever seen.   :shock:

Meriana

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #37 on: December 31, 2011, 07:49:02 AM »
I am very much in favour of RP-oriented spells quite unusable for combat.
I would also download any custom hak without any second thoughts.

RP RP RP RP RP RP RP RP

I might be hyperactive from lack of sleep. I blame RP.

LackofCertainty

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #38 on: January 03, 2012, 05:41:30 AM »
I played on a server where they implemented alter self, and made it temporarily change your pc's head/race/body-type etc.   It was a nifty rp spell, although a bit buggy.

As I understand it, Polymorph was nerfed:
a) to bring it more in line with pnp 
b) because the nwn implementation was way to strong for a low magic setting.

There was a bit of a stink about it when it first got nerfed (because this is the internet, and there's a big stink about any change that the devs make ever) but then people realized that it didn't really matter that much to anyone other than the people abusing the overpowered spell.  Oddly enough giving a wizard combat buffs and 5 regeneration for turns/level from a level 4 spell wasn't really balanced on this server.


This entire spoiler is a large rant about summon creature spells so ignore it unless you want to read a rant.
Spoiler: show

I tried to appeal to much the same sensibilities regarding the duration of summons spells that are otherwise useless in combat once. However it would seem that because you can take advantage of them, they were shortened to a duration exclusively useful in combat and not much so at that
Is proven time and time again that if it can be exploited, then its removed and altered.  The behavior behind the problems is never addressed, the mechanics are altered instead.


I really get tired of people complaining about the change in duration for the summon spells, but it seems like some people will never drop it.  It's gotten to the point where I feel like I'm a repeating record in every thread that pops up mentioning them, but I guess I'll say it one more time.

I made a Conjurer on this server.  I played her to level 14.  She was super uber strong and awesome, because she was a wizard.  She used summon spells extensively. I'm not saying "oh, she prepared two uses of summon monster 3 and used it as a tank" no. at her peak I was preparing 2 uses of summon 7, 2 uses of summon six (plus one extended summon 6, and a fair mixture of the other summons on down to summon 1.  (lower level summons were used as bait for aoe spells [Badgers are excellent at leading enemies into an empowered Evard's] mid level summons my fodder army for weaker fights so that fighters/tanks in our party weren't surrounded and overwhelmed, and I busted out the dire-bear/elementals when I either was fighting something really tough.... or was trying to scare the pants off of some bad guy. :P  They are good.  People undervalue them.  People complain about duration, but if you really think the duration is too short you can always *gasp* use extend spell, or prepare two of said spell.  Not every spell has to last forever.  Haste is one of the most powerful spells in the game, even with a short duration.  Summons are good, even with a short duration.  Also, a wizard that focuses on summoning is still stronger than nearly any other class on this server. (notable exceptions being cleric)

The change made summons way more interesting for me, because it was a tactical choice of when to bust one out.  Summons that last for 24 hours just become another buff to throw out.  Set it and forget it.  Not to mention that if you bust out an appropriate level summon and buff it, it eliminates nearly all of the need to party with any fighter/barbarian/paladin/[insert tank].  God forbid you run into a cleric with the animal domain.   The only reason why summons lasted 24 hours, was so that when playing through NwN as a single player game wizards would have access to a solid tank no matter what.  When you turn NwN into a multi-player game it is a natural conclusion that those spells should be tweaked down so that everyone has a role in the party.

But since this is an online game that has a forum, any decision that makes anything weaker is bad.  Gameplay balance be damned.  Party encouragement be damned.  Y'know what, lets just give wizards an "I win" spell.  If they cast it, it empties out an entire dungeon and unlocks and detraps everything in a 15 foot aura around the wizard.

The -only- duration based issue that I have with summons are specifically summon monster 1, and summon monster 2.  Because the summons are used as a combat spell, instead of a "I don't need a fighter, because I have an elemental that follows me everywhere, and is more durable than a fighter" the fact that the dire badger and the dire boar waste a round using rage and frenzy respectively, it can be a little frustrating to use them.  The only change that I could see being okay would be if those abilities became free actions on them. (because watchign a badger/boar dawddle while using their first round to buff is annoying when you're a level 3 wizard who has an angry monster forcibly removing your innards.



P.S. Here are the stats of a dire wolf as compared to a level 3 tank for those who are curious:
54 hp (more hp than any level 3 tank could have unbuffed)
20 ac (= to a 12 dex fighter with splint mail and a tower shield[which is a very common starting loadout for heavy armor tanks fresh in the mist])
+9 ab (= to a 20 str weapon focused person lvl 3 tank)
2d6+7 damage 19-20/x2 crits(= to a greatsword user with 20 str)

Basically for one spell slot a level 3 animal domain cleric summons something that is slightly stronger than a level 3 half-orc Greatsword using fighter.  You want them to have that as a perma-spell?  That is silly.  One spell to replace an entire person from a party is not a good idea.  It is the opposite of a good idea, infact.

Overall the Dire wolf summon is a CR: 5, which means it will be a moderately difficult fight for a team or 4 level 5 pcs. (although with the AI that everyone complains about I'd knock it down to a CR4)