Author Topic: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self  (Read 7113 times)

High_Priestess_of_Tinsel

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Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« on: May 26, 2011, 07:52:09 AM »
Quote from: Spell Changes
Polymorph Self

Change: When polymorphing, the caster only gains the attacks of the shape, and not the special qualities.

Is there anyone else that objects to this? I do, strongly.
I don't play a wizard so I can't do this regularly, but if I polymorph I want to do it to gain the attributes of that creature, not just the attacks, infact I'd do it very rarely for the attacks. For example, if I need strength to dig someone out of a landslide, I'll go Umberhulk. If I want to gain extra dex to pick a lock, I'll go pixie.
The whole point in that spell is that you become that creature yet retain your own mind and sense of self which is why the mental statistics don't change by the physical ones do.
I would like very much if this change could be reversed.

Ophie Kitty

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2011, 08:02:08 AM »
The current selection of shapes seem to be rather worthless, even in an RP frame of mind, because they are so limited to a spell that has endless possibilities in PnP. While I agree with the nerf some of the shapes had some power issues. (Zombies DR, Trolls Regen) I still think that they should have some flavor to the shapes- If there isn't any possibility of allowing other shapes.

I've done limited scripting, and never with hakpaks. I understand how to add new shapes via 2da editting, but I assume the server has to do the same thing through hakpaks?



dark_majico

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2011, 08:23:33 AM »
The bonuses you get with this spell in NWN make it a really powerful 4th level spell, you get access to true seeing, big ability score increases, more attacks, higher AC, regeneration. I'm OK with the changes to be honest, but it would be nice of you retained any AC bonuses for the forms, as its not unreasonable to keep your hardend chitinous shell for the spider or the umber hulk, once everything else is stripped out.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2011, 08:34:28 AM »
Immunity against will and death effects for zombies would be nice.
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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2011, 08:36:45 AM »
Immunity against will and death effects for zombies would be nice.
Zombie polymorph is a fail of NWN in my opinion- Its a template, not a creature.

I'll say it again- It'd be nice to see more ravenlofty forms rather than the five we currently have.

High_Priestess_of_Tinsel

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2011, 10:27:53 AM »
What's the point in the spell at all then? Why not just make a new one where we can change our cosmetic appearance just for the hell of it and get rid of Polymorph all together?
I was coming from a more RP angled point of view when I made my origional post, not a mechanical one. I'm not big on mechanics so I don't know how 'broken' Polymorph can be or if it even is, I just think it's a nice little rp-able spell that should never have been altered.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2011, 10:36:01 AM »
What's the point in the spell at all then? Why not just make a new one where we can change our cosmetic appearance just for the hell of it and get rid of Polymorph all together?
I was coming from a more RP angled point of view when I made my origional post, not a mechanical one. I'm not big on mechanics so I don't know how 'broken' Polymorph can be or if it even is, I just think it's a nice little rp-able spell that should never have been altered.

Because it would be more or less cheesing. Because it is not an ILUSION, its a transmutation. Because wizards and rangers are supposed to have this power. Because NWN already cut off a hell of spells, because we have an engine that makes it impossible to make anything a PnP RPG sould allow (like, for instance, flying away from danger).

And because one day the Nerf Crusade shall come to an end. And I hope it is soon.
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High_Priestess_of_Tinsel

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2011, 10:39:13 AM »
What's the point in the spell at all then? Why not just make a new one where we can change our cosmetic appearance just for the hell of it and get rid of Polymorph all together?
I was coming from a more RP angled point of view when I made my origional post, not a mechanical one. I'm not big on mechanics so I don't know how 'broken' Polymorph can be or if it even is, I just think it's a nice little rp-able spell that should never have been altered.

Because it is not an ILUSION, its a transmutation. Because wizards and rangers are supposed to have this power.

That was kind of what I was getting at. I don't want to be massively negative but I think far too much nerfing goes on as a solution to problems that could be solved in other ways.
Also, it's a cool spell and I don't agree with the change that's been made to it.

HellsPanda

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #8 on: May 26, 2011, 12:00:48 PM »
This is one of those changes made to bring it closer to its PnP version,  and not changed for mechanical reasons

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2011, 12:27:59 PM »
This is one of those changes made to bring it closer to its PnP version,  and not changed for mechanical reasons

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/polymorph.htm

Quote
The subject gains the Strength, Dexterity, and Constitution scores of the new form but retains its own Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. It also gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form or any supernatural or spell-like abilities.

As to what extraordinary special abilities are: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/specialAbilities.htm#extraordinaryAbilities


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Romar Notten

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #10 on: May 26, 2011, 12:31:05 PM »
I think polymorph self should remain how it is, only memorize the spell when your needing to pack corpses about all it's good for.

High_Priestess_of_Tinsel

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2011, 04:01:57 AM »
This is one of those changes made to bring it closer to its PnP version,  and not changed for mechanical reasons

But it's now nothing like it's PnP version, as proved by Anarcoplayba. Besides, this is NWN, not PnP, if you want to cast PnP Polymorph then get together a group and play PnP.
It's good for far more than lugging coprses or vast ammounts of treasure about, if you ask me. It's a great enhancment to rp. It can serve to increase the ammount of fear and unease felt towards magic on this server, how scary would it be if a completely normal seeming person suddenly turned into a ten foot bug right infront of you!?
It dissapoints and saddens me that many here seem to be more focussed on the mechanics of things, rather than the rp aspects and enhancments in the game. This is after all a role play server, not a Word of Warcraft imitation isn't it?

ethinos

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2011, 04:11:03 AM »
But it's now nothing like it's PnP version, as proved by Anarcoplayba.

Uh, no. Read again what he said. The spell gives you the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con), the special attacks, and the appearance of the creature. That's it. Extraordinary special qualities, or supernatural/spell-like abilties are not gained. This would include open lock, true seeing, damage resistance/immunity, etc.

Quote
Besides, this is NWN, not PnP, if you want to cast PnP Polymorph then get together a group and play PnP.

Many of the spells, items, etc. have been modified to align with the PnP version of D&D.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 04:14:22 AM by ethinos »
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Emomina

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2011, 04:13:19 AM »
I tried to appeal to much the same sensibilities regarding the duration of summons spells that are otherwise useless in combat once. However it would seem that because you can take advantage of them, they were shortened to a duration exclusively useful in combat and not much so at that
Is proven time and time again that if it can be exploited, then its removed and altered.  The behavior behind the problems is never addressed, the mechanics are altered instead.
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Budly

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #14 on: May 27, 2011, 05:14:51 AM »
What a witch hunt it has become!  :shock:

Badelaire

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #15 on: May 27, 2011, 05:39:34 AM »
I tried to appeal to much the same sensibilities regarding the duration of summons spells that are otherwise useless in combat once. However it would seem that because you can take advantage of them, they were shortened to a duration exclusively useful in combat and not much so at that
Is proven time and time again that if it can be exploited, then its removed and altered.  The behavior behind the problems is never addressed, the mechanics are altered instead.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

dark_majico

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #16 on: May 27, 2011, 06:12:17 AM »
OH ok you get to keep STR, CON, and DEX bonuses, attacks, you increase in HP, great! What about AC? As I have never had the chance to cast this spell in the module yet. The spell does have uses, its full of RP potential, and its usefull if your a wizard who has ran out of his spells and wants to dispatch of a tiresome group of goblins, a couple of wolves, those annoying mid level threats that seem to surround you and pawn your squishy wizardly self, it even better if your a Sorcerer!

I retract my previouse posts.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2011, 08:44:17 AM »
But it's now nothing like it's PnP version, as proved by Anarcoplayba.

Uh, no. Read again what he said. The spell gives you the physical stats (Str, Dex, Con), the special attacks, and the appearance of the creature. That's it. Extraordinary special qualities, or supernatural/spell-like abilties are not gained. This would include open lock, true seeing, damage resistance/immunity, etc.

Quote
Besides, this is NWN, not PnP, if you want to cast PnP Polymorph then get together a group and play PnP.

Many of the spells, items, etc. have been modified to align with the PnP version of D&D.

True seeing is the tremor sense, which is not supernatural.

Neither is open lock.

Neither is damage resistance or immunity.

Extraordinary
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High_Priestess_of_Tinsel

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2011, 09:10:00 AM »
I'm aware of what the spell does. Or rather, what it did. Now all you get is the bonus attacks? No stat bonuses, no true seeing? That is what's been done to the spell now, right?

I tried to appeal to much the same sensibilities regarding the duration of summons spells that are otherwise useless in combat once. However it would seem that because you can take advantage of them, they were shortened to a duration exclusively useful in combat and not much so at that
Is proven time and time again that if it can be exploited, then its removed and altered.  The behavior behind the problems is never addressed, the mechanics are altered instead.

Pretty much hit the nail on the head there.

And this too.

HellsPanda

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2011, 09:20:49 AM »
You get the stats of the form, you dø not get things like true seeing and regen

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #20 on: May 27, 2011, 09:22:29 AM »
You get the stats of the form, you dø not get things like true seeing and regen

That's the point: those thing's ain't magic: they are natural for the form. The true seeing is the way the engine found to emulate tremor sense.
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tzaeru

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #21 on: May 27, 2011, 09:29:33 AM »
Personally I feel the polymorph spell as it was was too powerful, much too powerful in fact for a low-magic item setting.

Troll form has 5 regeneration, whilst zombie form has 10 resistance to bludgeoning, slashing and piercing. Back in the days of being level 11, my wizard could go to Demonologists, round up all Aberrations and Fanatics and just stand there with Ethereal Visage, Zombie Form and Acid Sheath whilst the monsters promptly killed themselves at me. It was free and very fast XP. Same could be repeated at then much more powerful Scrags and for loads of other monsters.

And troll form with it's 5 regeneration was a quick way to heal up free without having to bother with heal skill or going to an inn. Not all useless in combat either.

At the level you get Ethereal Visage, pretty much no monster ever hits you for over 30 damage, and even when you only have Polymorph Self, you can still get good XP by picking monsters that mostly hit under 10.

Personally I feel that 10 damage resistance for turns/level against all physical attacks is too much for something a level 7 wizard gets, even that it stops her from casting other spells.

EDIT: Thinking of it, it'd be nice if forms like Troll and Zombie weren't now useless for all but RP purposes. Perhaps +1 or +2 regeneration for Troll and say, 3 damage reduction for zombie?
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 09:34:20 AM by tzaeru »

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #22 on: May 27, 2011, 09:33:20 AM »
Personally I feel the polymorph spell as it was was too powerful, much too powerful in fact for a low-magic item setting.

Troll form has 5 regeneration, whilst zombie form has 10 resistance to bludgeoning, slashing and piercing. Back in the days of being level 11, my wizard could go to Demonologists, round up all Aberrations and Fanatics and just stand there with Ethereal Visage, Zombie Form and Acid Sheath whilst the monsters promptly killed themselves at me. It was free and very fast XP. Same could be repeated at then much more powerful Scrags and for loads of other monsters. It also was possible to separately kill the Demonologists once they were alone with a few well-placed spells.

And troll form with it's 5 regeneration was a quick way to heal up free without having to bother with heal skill or going to an inn. Not all useless in combat either.

At the level you get Ethereal Visage, pretty much no monster ever hits you for over 30 damage, and even when you only have Polymorph Self, you can still get good XP by picking monsters that mostly hit under 10.

NOW we are addressing the question from another angle: NERF.

Not adequating to PNP, but nerfing.

And then, let's change the question: the spell should be nerfed?
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tzaeru

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2011, 09:38:04 AM »
Well, PnP is not the best source of balancing for Neverwinter Nights due to very vast differences, I'm also pretty sure PnP doesn't give stuff like regeneration or damage reductions?

Doesn't the alternated Polymorph Self still give you the form's dex and str, so the forms are usable to OP's purposes?

Actually:

Quote
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
You do not gain any extraordinary special attacks or special qualities not noted above under physical qualities, such as darkvision, low-light vision, blindsense, blindsight, fast healing, regeneration, scent, and so forth.
You do not gain any supernatural special attacks, special qualities, or spell-like abilities of the new form. Your creature type and subtype (if any) remain the same regardless of your new form. You cannot take the form of any creature with a template, even if that template doesn’t change the creature type or subtype.

Yeah! I think in PnP you can't even polymorph to a zombie so.

EDIT: Let me add, that if in PnP it was possible to get regenerations and damage reductions and other such abilities, you could easily Polymorph into a form with vastly overpowered damage reductions or regenerations or similar, and fix up some of the vulnerabilities of the said form with buffs, or by the fact the monster in PnP has some other weakness you obviously lack in your party, or a weakness that almost no other monster has a counter-measure against but your party is supposed to have.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2011, 09:48:48 AM by tzaeru »

tzaeru

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Re: Spell Changes: Polymorph Self
« Reply #24 on: May 27, 2011, 09:54:51 AM »
I'm aware of what the spell does. Or rather, what it did. Now all you get is the bonus attacks? No stat bonuses, no true seeing? That is what's been done to the spell now, right?

No, you get ability bonuses and extra HPs. Very likely also natural AC bonuses, albeit I didn't check this last one - spawned accidentally to no-free-rest area.  :roll: