Author Topic: Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls  (Read 1804 times)

Thoraion

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Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls
« on: May 22, 2011, 02:51:57 PM »
Whoever knows the D20 system is also aware of circumstance modifiers and whatever else. Those, however, usually are not used in NWN. We have a system for rolls and emotes in place... so why not allow modifiers as well?
The command that fires the roll can be seen in the dialogue box, so adding the modifier to the command would be transparent enough.

So why would i want that?
Take a disarm attempt which usually comes with a -6 (?) modifer on the attack roll. Or an influence roll for a quite ovious lie or a unlikely claim. Or...

Yes, the height of the modifier may sometimes be questionable... but still better than an unmodified roll, right?

So how could that look like?
[disarm -6]
[touch attack -8]

Exploitable? Yes, by applying a positive modifier. So what? Have a good laugh and walk away like you do anyway with a torrent of rolls.


And now the usual sidenote:
Some of you utterly confuse me with your rolls.
Log excerpt:
Player 1: *tries to punch P2 straight in the face* [touch attack]
Player 1: Touch attack: 25
Player 2: [dodge]
Player 2: Dodge: 12
Player 2: *receives a punch on the nose*
Player 1: [Str]
Player 1: Strength: 17
Player 2: [Str]
Player 2: Strength: 4
Player 2: [discipline]
Player 2: Discipline: 12
Player 2: [con]
Player 2: Constitution: 14

This is where you usually loose me.
First... a lost roll is a lost roll, so using yet another roll does... nothing
Second... now let's assume that what happens there follows a certain logic - what speaks against sharing that logic? Maybe the example above means:
*punch* Ouch...
str failed... *gets knocked back*
discipline failed... *falls backward*
constitution failed... *passes out*
That makes much more sense with a few comments, right?

Alas... player B walks away at this point.
 :stars:

After the fourth incident in a week i think i might mention it...



... my sincerest apologies for the double-post... :facepalm:
« Last Edit: May 22, 2011, 02:53:53 PM by Thoraion »
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ethinos

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Re: Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2011, 03:23:07 PM »
Combat like that should be left to the NWN game engine, with subdual mode. A thrown punch is not a touch attack. Anything else should be done with care and reason, and to further the roleplaying experience.
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Eagle882

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Re: Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2011, 03:31:23 PM »
Yeah, seriously, send an OOC message to activate subdual and punch it out...
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DM Nocturne

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Re: Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2011, 02:47:43 AM »
In my experience on another server, regulating role-played fights or encounters rarely work very well...

Thoraion

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Re: Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2011, 03:05:26 AM »
In my experience on another server, regulating role-played fights or encounters rarely work very well...
Did anyone mention anything about regulation?

The first part was about a system addition that allows to volountarily apply the modifiers from the SRD for actions that are harder than just the basic roll. I think you are all aware that a good deal of fights is played via emotes and that this won't change, since the combat system is ok if the goal is to beat the opponent in the ground, but fails utterly f something else is intended that just includes actions that are covered by the DnD combat system

Neither was the second part... it is annoying if someone rolls through his whole character sheet until he finally gets a result that he considers a result, but that won't change soon. But IF that (and even fewer rolls) happens, at least describing what is supposed to happen. 10 lines of rolls are kind of hard to interpret... So it is just again a reminder to consider fellow players.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2011, 03:10:28 AM by Thoraion »
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Re: Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2011, 03:45:16 AM »
Modifiers are indeed essential to realistically portraying situations in DnD. However - why not just apply the simple math yourself? If someone rolls a spot check vs anothers move silently, you just agree on a modifier and work it out that way? Or is it too inconvenient?

Thoraion

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Re: Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2011, 05:20:49 AM »
Modifiers are indeed essential to realistically portraying situations in DnD. However - why not just apply the simple math yourself? If someone rolls a spot check vs anothers move silently, you just agree on a modifier and work it out that way? Or is it too inconvenient?
Sometimes. Spot versus Hide is not so critical, but the basic problem stays the same... Explanation follows,

First, you need some way to agree on applying modifiers, which can get quite nifty when action is progressing at some pace. I found the most efficient way to be firing the altered results after the dice roll, but it is still far from being an optimum. The more time you have, the better.
An example of that manual version might look like this (Don't discuss if i applied the right modifiers in the example and whether it is all handled according to SRD... please...):
Code: [Select]
#1  Player 1: *tries to poke P2 with a pointy stick in the belly* [touch attack]
#2  Player 1: Touch attack: 15
#3  Player 2: *tries to seize the stick* [touch attack] -6
#4  Player 2: Touch attack: 22
#5  Player 2: //modified: 16
#6  Player 2: *grabs the stick and holds it fast*
#7  Player 2: [Str]
#8  Player 2: Strength: 17
#9  Player 1: [Str]
#10 Player 1: Strength: 4
#11 Player 1: Heh! Let go! That's my stick!

This example goes quite well - but the rouble lies in line 3-6 - that's where usually a reflex kicks in to answer a roll with another roll immediately. So before P2 has typed line 6, P1 has in many cases already launched a [dodge]. Now this is usually no real problem, but the reult often looks like this:
Code: [Select]
#1  Player 1: *tries to poke P2 with a pointy stick in the belly* [touch attack]
#2  Player 1: Touch attack: 15
#3  Player 2: *tries to seize the stick* [touch attack] -6
#4  Player 2: Touch attack: 22
#5  Player 1: [dodge]
#6  Player 1: Dodge: 18
#7  Player 2: //modified: 16
#8  Player 1: // ??? WTF??
Should the players give more time for the other to type more lines when they already have typed one... or two..? No, that's no solution. It is the combination of automated results and manual corrections that make following the process sometimes difficult to a degree that makes it useless. It gets quite hard in such situations to make the connection between a roll and its modified result. Yes, you could just as well type:
Code: [Select]
#7  Player 2: //modified touch attack: 16
Hm... for me, that's almost 2 seconds more, and as you see, timing is essential here.

The example is not the best, but just imagine how the lines would look like with a few other special attacks.
Trip, Bullrush, Disarm, Grapple... and so on. But same goes for Hide, Move silently, Antagonize, Influence and so on.

Those last examples may also be a key to increase acceptance for those a bit.
The most common argument against those is that it is sometimes just ridiculous to attempt to persuade a garda that this staff does only appear to glow due to sunshine and good polishing.
But what if the influencer tells the gardas player that he is aware of the chance being dim by applying the modifer straight to the roll? The result is similar, though... but the point is that the player beginning with a social skill shows that he is aware that his attempt is a bit far-fetched.
But... i agree that for this we do not necessarily need an automated syntax for modifiers. It is just way more helpfull in fast-paced situations.
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dutchy

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Re: Rolls and modifiers... and even more rolls
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2011, 02:17:39 PM »
if i wanted to play DnD i would have looked for a group and sat down at some table and roll dice.
no
i'm playing nwn wich is not a full DnD thing and i like that thats why i play nwn.
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