Magic Vestment

[HellsPanda]

Your assuming a cleric should be as great in a melee as a fighter.
A Cleric should be slightly worse, but the fact is its nearly impossible to make a mechanically usefull Cleric, unless you actually tried.

[Anarcoplayba]

Your assuming a cleric should be as great in a melee as a fighter.
A Cleric should be slightly worse, but the fact is its nearly impossible to make a mechanically usefull Cleric, unless you actually tried.

No, I'm not assuming a cleric should be as great in a melee as a fighter: I'm assuming a cleric needs all his spells to go toe to toe with a fighter, has to plan carefully and take MUCH care when meleeing.

Anyone who plays a cleric knows what a well placed dispell makes: all of a suddne you lost your protection AND probably is encumbered.

[Delete Me]

I'm slack jawed at this, now.  You cannot balance a cleric with melee fighters. Period.   Clerics have a wide range of stats that are vital to them.


Fighter wins with AB
Fighter wins with HP
Fighter wins with most saves (cept for will. lol)
Fighter can get their whole 4 attacks

And Its a bit off in my book to make one match the other, especially since it'd be invalidating the cleric entirely. A cleric is only useful after 10 minutes of buffing.

An unprepared cleric has 0 chance of survival. None.

Because they're like a retarded rogue trying to run with an ogre's greatsword. Ghastly results.


A cleric needs -everything- in able to survive a melee fight with a top notch fighter, and then some.  Even then, half the time, with a single knock down, its game over.
The nerf crusade needs to end eventually.

[Jay]

In the interests of idle curiosity I recently tested this theory with my Level 15 Paladin (Fully buffed including Holy Sword) against a Level 12 clereic who had also fully buffed himself.
I was down in 3 rounds.

There is no doubt in my mind that a combination of Divine Might, Divine Favour, and Divine Power are the source of these testimonials. Its not that you can not hit them because of their AC (vestment) its because they nearly unerringly hit you and all that damage stacks (along with GMW and Dark Fire).

This is why i don't bother contributing to these threads any more, people just belive what they want to belive.

[HellsPanda]

I would guess he is assuming it was those spells, and Battletide since you say 3 rounds.
If it was just the AC, the fight would have lasted longer

[Anarcoplayba]

I would guess he is assuming it was those spells, and Battletide since you say 3 rounds.
If it was just the AC, the fight would have lasted longer

What makes me think in a fun way to deal with those meat grinding machines: keep running until the buffs wear out.

[tzaeru]

But comparing with other meleers Clerics lose on other sides: hit points and attack base.

Besides, clerics are usually dexterity impaired end inteligence impaired, what limits even more their feat choices, makin them spell reliable.

And, more than that: because many clerics have no consideration to the party, the solutiom is crippling everyone because "the clerics will suffer more"?

Saying that everyone is getting crippled is a major exaggeration. Let's assume a level 12 fighter and a level 12 cleric with War domain (you can change it to strength or protection or travel or trickery if you want) and some other less useful one.

12 Cleric solo AC for PvM: 10 (base) + 1 (Cat's Grace) + 12 (Full Plate + Magic Vestment) + 7 (Tower Shield + Magic Vestment) + 4 (Shield of Faith) + 1 (Tumble) + 3 (Barkskin potion) + 1 (Enchanted Plated Boots/Rusty Chain Boots) + 4 (Divine Shield w/ Empowered Eagle's Splendor)= 43, with armor-only 1/4 magic vestment: 39

12 Fighter solo AC for PvM: 10 (base) + 1 (Dex 13) + 9 (Steel Full Plate) + 4 (Enchanted Ironwood Shield) + 4 (Brooch of Shielding) + 3 (Barkskin potion) + 1 (Enchanted Plated Boots) + 10 (Imp. Expertise) + 1 (Tumble) = 43

12 Fighter AC w/ Cleric w/o Expertise for PvM: 10 (base) + 1 (Dex 13) + 12 (Full Plate + Magic Vestment) + 7 (Tower Shield + Magic Vestment) + 4 (Brooch of Shielding) + 3 (Barkskin potion) + 1 (Enchanted Plated Boots)  + 1 (Tumble) = 39, with armor-only 1/4 magic vestment: 35

Right. Cleric still has more AC than a non-expertising fighter, and on top of that 35 AC is certainly solid for level 12? Just thinkin'. On top of that solo cleric in the hands of a solid NWN-player has always more AB and damage in dungeons than a solo fighter on this server.

Please show me a solo or cleric or wizard buffed level 13 fighter taking Guardians of Anubis. I know for sure they are takeable by a level 13 cleric. Naturally Magic Vestment isn't the only thing that makes clerics such uber killer machines. There's also Divine Favor, Divine Power and Divine Feats, on top of a pile of other buffs like Bull's Str, GMW, Darkfire, Aid, Bless, Battletide, list goes on and on..

I'm slack jawed at this, now.  You cannot balance a cleric with melee fighters. Period.   Clerics have a wide range of stats that are vital to them.

Fighter wins with AB
Fighter wins with HP
Fighter wins with most saves (cept for will. lol)
Fighter can get their whole 4 attacks

Since we're talking of a buff nerf, I don't think we should compare unbuffed fighter and cleric. I can guarantee you that I can roll a level 12 cleric who beats a level 20 fighter.

Buffed cleric at level 12 to 20 has more AB, damage, will, fortitude, a little less HP (not by much) and more AC than a wizard buffed fighter; A cleric-buffed fighter has often (albeit not always) less AB and Damage than a self-buffed cleric, sometimes less AC depending on build.

An unprepared cleric has 0 chance of survival. None.

An unprepared cleric needs to only do a single level 6 buff to kick his survival chances up to the ninety plus percents. Very affordable considering that clerics have 2nd most spells per day of all caster classes.

[Anarcoplayba]

But comparing with other meleers Clerics lose on other sides: hit points and attack base.

Besides, clerics are usually dexterity impaired end inteligence impaired, what limits even more their feat choices, makin them spell reliable.

And, more than that: because many clerics have no consideration to the party, the solutiom is crippling everyone because "the clerics will suffer more"?

Saying that everyone is getting crippled is a major exaggeration. Let's assume a level 12 fighter and a level 12 cleric with War domain (you can change it to strength or protection or travel or trickery if you want) and some other less useful one.

12 Cleric solo AC for PvM: 10 (base) + 1 (Cat's Grace) + 12 (Full Plate + Magic Vestment) + 7 (Tower Shield + Magic Vestment) + 4 (Shield of Faith) + 1 (Tumble) + 3 (Barkskin potion) + 1 (Enchanted Plated Boots/Rusty Chain Boots) + 4 (Divine Shield w/ Empowered Eagle's Splendor)= 43, with armor-only 1/4 magic vestment: 39

12 Fighter solo AC for PvM: 10 (base) + 1 (Dex 13) + 9 (Steel Full Plate) + 4 (Enchanted Ironwood Shield) + 4 (Brooch of Shielding) + 3 (Barkskin potion) + 1 (Enchanted Plated Boots) + 10 (Imp. Expertise) + 1 (Tumble) = 43

12 Fighter AC w/ Cleric w/o Expertise for PvM: 10 (base) + 1 (Dex 13) + 12 (Full Plate + Magic Vestment) + 7 (Tower Shield + Magic Vestment) + 4 (Brooch of Shielding) + 3 (Barkskin potion) + 1 (Enchanted Plated Boots)  + 1 (Tumble) = 39, with armor-only 1/4 magic vestment: 35

Right. Cleric still has more AC, and on top of that 35 AC is certainly solid for level 12? Just thinkin'. On top of that solo cleric in the hands of a solid NWN-player has always more AB and damage in dungeons than a solo fighter on this server.

Please show me a solo or cleric or wizard buffed level 13 fighter taking Guardians of Anubis. I know for sure they are takeable by a level 13 cleric. Naturally Magic Vestment isn't the only thing that makes clerics such uber killer machines. There's also Divine Favor, Divine Power and Divine Feats, on top of a pile of other buffs like Bull's Str, GMW, Darkfire, Aid, Bless, Battletide, list goes on and on..

I'm slack jawed at this, now.  You cannot balance a cleric with melee fighters. Period.   Clerics have a wide range of stats that are vital to them.

Fighter wins with AB
Fighter wins with HP
Fighter wins with most saves (cept for will. lol)
Fighter can get their whole 4 attacks

Since we're talking of a buff nerf, I don't think we should compare unbuffed fighter and cleric. I can guarantee you that I can roll a level 12 cleric who beats a level 20 fighter.

Buffed cleric at level 12 to 20 has more AB, damage, will, fortitude, a little less HP (not by much) and more AC than a wizard buffed cleric; A cleric-buffed fighter has often (albeit not always) less AB and Damage than a self-buffed cleric.

An unprepared cleric has 0 chance of survival. None.

An unprepared cleric needs to only do a single level 6 buff to kick his survival chances up to the ninety plus percents. Very affordable considering that clerics have 2nd most spells per day of all caster classes.

Problems: remember that Divine Shield won't last long, and that Shield of faith doesn't stack all it's way... Also, to have divine shield you will have to have at least 13 charisma, what will cost in some other place (maybe dex, maybe con)... 5 points in tumble also means that HALF of your skill points will be spent in tumble... a quite complicated assumption... Also, to gain +1 AC from Dex, you'll need a roll of 4 or more in cat's grace, which is animal domain spell, or use a cat's grace potion, something a fighter can use too... And you're not counting on dodge bonus.

I have a level 14 cleric and my AC full buffed is 37. High? Indeed high, but I sacrifice offensive spells to get it. And when I'm partying I usually memorize twice the defensive and offensive buffs to at least more one fighter.

The cleric's role is surviving and healing the party: a cleric with less AC is less useful to the whole party, especially when you have to walk into the middle of the fight to heal the frontliners.

[HellsPanda]

the clerics role isnt to survive and raise, it changes based on the dogma of the char, but at its most basic, it is to stop others from dying

[Anarcoplayba]

the clerics role isnt to survive and raise, it changes based on the dogma of the char, but at its most basic, it is to stop others from dying

Survive and healing, not surviving and raising.

If people needs to be raised, you're doing it wrong.

[tzaeru]

Problems: remember that Divine Shield won't last long, and that Shield of faith doesn't stack all it's way... Also, to have divine shield you will have to have at least 13 charisma, what will cost in some other place (maybe dex, maybe con)... 5 points in tumble also means that HALF of your skill points will be spent in tumble... a quite complicated assumption... Also, to gain +1 AC from Dex, you'll need a roll of 4 or more in cat's grace, which is animal domain spell, or use a cat's grace potion, something a fighter can use too... And you're not counting on dodge bonus.

The assumptions I made behind the character was human base race (so tumble is actually 1/3 of total skill points, and often times it's raised to 5, then stopped, giving more extra skill points), charisma 13 and War domain (which gives Cat's Grace, essentially buffing your dex to 12 which is enough for full dex bonus, and cast empowered or maximized it's almost always enough to give 12 at least). I think I took all stackings into account, too.

Total duration for Divine Shield is generally 52 rounds for someone whose starting charisma was 13 to 15 and he cast empowered (or maximized) Eagle's Splendor - or just normal, 50% of time you roll 4 or 5 in total. That is generally enough to carry through hardest spawns before needing to rest.

The cleric's role is surviving and healing the party: a cleric with less AC is less useful to the whole party, especially when you have to walk into the middle of the fight to heal the frontliners.

That may be cleric's supposed role in original AD&D. On PoTM cleric is with no doubt the strongest class of choice for PvM.

[Emomina]

A Cleric with the war domain is a worshiper of a Militant religion, it is the one cleric build that is supposed to be able to stand toe-to-toe with a warrior. Its also one of the only cleric types that should be wearing full-plate. Not a good example.

I call BS on this example you continually throw out there where a high level fighter buffed loses to the cleric.  Let me buff Sedrik, with my level 12 cleric.

[Badelaire]

A Cleric with the war domain is a worshiper of a Militant religion, it is the one cleric build that is supposed to be able to stand toe-to-toe with a warrior. Its also one of the only cleric types that should be wearing full-plate. Not a good example.

I call BS on this example you continually throw out there where a high level fighter buffed loses to the cleric.  Let me buff Sedrik, with my level 12 cleric.

Quoting mechanics is bunk anyway. I've seen the most solid builds, regardless of class, drop because of the panic a melee can cause and how quickly group cohesion can disintergrate. Even with 55 ac and an excellent group I've had my ass handed to me by what's out there when you get swamped in seconds. Other times I've seen the lowly potion-buffed fighter walk out of situations where the fully buffed mages and clerics die horribly so it's not always a case of mechanics but the person behind the PC. All those stats might look good on paper but IG, anything goes.

[tzaeru]

A Cleric with the war domain is a worshiper of a Militant religion, it is the one cleric build that is supposed to be able to stand toe-to-toe with a warrior. Its also one of the only cleric types that should be wearing full-plate. Not a good example.

In this particular example I only used War domain's Cat's Grace. I could have picked Trickery for Imp Invis, or Travel for Haste, or Strength for the Domain power, or Plant for Barkskin with full progression, or Animal for Cat's Grace. Cat's Grace was only one I picked from War, and I picked War because of the amount of Banites and due to combat occurring most often with militaristic deities. Again, Cat's Grace was only one I used out of it in the AC scenario examples.

I call BS on this example you continually throw out there where a high level fighter buffed loses to the cleric.  Let me buff Sedrik, with my level 12 cleric.

I'm pretty guaranteed a cleric-buffed Sedrik still loses against self-buffed cleric of same or close to same level; Originally I implied that a level 12 cleric self-buffed beats a level 20 fighter who's alone, and I'm still betting my fangs on that. Probably a well-done cleric build at level 15-16 would beat Sedrik buffed by a level 12 to 16 cleric.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

First of all, let's not get upset over this, please.

Second, the entire discussion whether a buffed cleric can beat a fighter shouldn't be the focus here. I don't really think there's much question as to whether a fully buffed cleric can outmatch an fighter working on her own, but that isn't necessarily a problem, since we aspire to balance toward teamwork. The question is rather whether the magic vestment spell imbalanced compared to other buffs (both other cleric spells, but also, spells from other classes).

Bad_Bud made a good list that I would allow myself to reuse for some comparison:

Barkskin: +5 AC MAX - level 2 spell
A good spell, but it is also the only the druid have available for this purpose.

Shield: +4 AC - level 1 spell
This can only target self. I've always considered it to be something that compensates for the mage's inability to wear armour/shield.

Mage Armor: +4 AC MAX - level 1 spell
The major disadvantage of this spell is that it is just +1 AC of four various kinds. It is a great spell for low levels, but at higher levels it rarely yields more than +2 or +3 AC, sometimes less if used in combination with other spells.

Haste: +4 AC (does much more than this, though) - level 3 spell
There's no doubt that haste is a great spell and a key spell for mages. Compared to the other spells, it has a short duration though, and the +4 AC is dodge that will be negated when flat footed.

Shield of Faith: +5 AC MAX - level 1 spell
This is a cleric spell as magic vestment. It matches the benefits of magic vestment in many ways, but it does not allow for casting twice on a single target. On the other hand, it does stack with the two magic vestment.

Of course, this is simplifying things, but if you look at the list, you can compare each of these classes ability to buff others with AC.

A druid would only be able grant +5 AC total, using barkskin.

A mage would total at +8, some of it of course having the advantage of also providing haste, but then, the duration is much shorter, and 5 points of it is dodge AC which is negated under some circumstances.

A cleric would be able to grant +15.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

And add to that, of these classes, the cleric is the one with the best capability to melee herself.

[HellsPanda]

Mage Armour gives 1 Dodge AC also, and as Dodge always stacks even with other Dodge, it wont loose this bonus in combination with Haste

[Anarcoplayba]

Just adding a more technical note here:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Shield_of_faith

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Magic_vestment

Shield of faith  reachs it's top at level 18. Magic Vestment at level 15.

Shield of faith is Deflection, thus it doesn't stack with any other items that are usable for everyone.

Magic Vestment adds to the armor and shield enhancement bonus, however, doesn't stack with their own enhancement bonus.

Oh, and also: Let's not forget that the other classes have access to many other useful spells, like:

http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Death_armor
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Ghostly_visage
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Displacement
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Improved_invisibility
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Mestil%27s_acid_sheath
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Greater_stoneskin
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Ethereal_visage

And I'm not even touching the bard spell list...

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Mage Armour gives 1 Dodge AC also, and as Dodge always stacks even with other Dodge, it wont loose this bonus in combination with Haste

True, corrected that in the above post.

Shield of faith is Deflection, thus it doesn't stack with any other items that are usable for everyone.

Magic Vestment adds to the armor and shield enhancement bonus, however, doesn't stack with their own enhancement bonus.

Indeed, but same applies to mage armour though.

Also, something further. It was earlier argued too that mages have the ability to provide improved invisibility that effectively cause 25% of attacks to miss. If you however compare that to the extra 7 AC a cleric has (granted, under ideal circumstances), we can compare a situation where a monster now has to roll a 18 rather than a 11 to hit (random example, but should be relevant for a lot of situations). This reduce the chance of hitting you by 70%. Further, in PvP, see invisiblity or similar spells, negates the 25% miss chance, and the blind fighting feat also halves it.

And finally, yes, there are many other protective spells - both for mages, druids, bards and clerics. Many of those you list are only self-target though.

[Emomina]

The cleric is the protection buffer, it can raise the armor class can ward against all manner of various attacks, physical and otherwise. They've been that way since 1st edition, anyone who has ever played DnD has known the cleric is the source of augmentation.
Given the choice between taking one buffer, and I have to choose between mage and cleric, I will still choose mage though. I have since I first started playing here.  The mage is much much better array of buffs than a cleric, especially given that vestment is the only thing they can offer that either the mage or my items can't

[Anarcoplayba]

And finally, yes, there are many other protective spells - both for mages, druids, bards and clerics. Many of those you list are only self-target though.

Entropic Shield is more or less useless: http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Entropic_shield

There are other buffs for clerics, sure, but not anything else that would work in a defensive way like the other buffs of the arcane casters. Clerics are made for defense/melee. Fighters and Mages are quick damage dealers.

[Emomina]

I'd love to know how clerics solo places such as the Ivlis Marsh, want to know the limitations of a cleric, then try that place alone.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

I always thought the first and foremost role of the cleric in a party was being the healer.

[Romar Notten]

I always thought the first and foremost role of the cleric in a party was being the healer.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpPKgi-niI[/youtube]

[Ryltar/ Robert Archer]

I always thought the first and foremost role of the cleric in a party was being the healer.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DHpPKgi-niI[/youtube]

  that pretty much summed up my feelings even my own guilty self at times when i played hope lol