Magic Vestment

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

This is to discuss an obvious nerf of a spell, but one that is so forward that experimenting with it hardly is warranted. Rather, we figured we could just discuss it with the playerbase openly to get views.

The spell in question is Magic Vestment, a 3rd level cleric spell. At current, it grants a +1/3 level AC bonus to a target armour or shield. This bonus does not stack with current enchantments placed on these items.

In effect, a level 15+ cleric can make both her shield and armour +5 AC, totalling +10 AC. In a typical FR setting this may not unbalanced, but on a server as POTM where enchanted armours and shields beyond +1 are exceptionally rare, and beyond +2 almost entirely unavailable, this provides a substantial advantage.

The question is however if you consider it imbalanced, and whether a change of the spell is relevant.

Please share your thoughts and comments as civilly as possible, and vote in the above poll.

[kyoung2200]

Is there a way to maybe not mess with the progression (keep it at +1/3), but cap it at +3 (so it maxes out at 9th level), and boost it up to hours/level?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Is there a way to maybe not mess with the progression (keep it at +1/3), but cap it at +3 (so it maxes out at 9th level), and boost it up to hours/level?

That is entirely possible, yes. If people feel in favour of that (or any other) approach, please post that.

[Shadowthrone]

I think the progression should be the same as GMW currently is. There's no reason to remove the +5 capability entirely considering we also have varnishes capable of doing that.

[GunzNrosZ]

I believe its progression should be as GWM as well.

[tzaeru]

If I could, I'd vote both +1 / 5 levels and disallow casting on a shield.

Cleric buffs are silly, seen level 13 cleric go solo against Guardians of Anubis which are around CR 20, whilst level 12 can easily clear max spawn lich tower.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Added new options.

[Anarcoplayba]

We will nerf Varnishes too?

Seriously: With the varnishes AND the enchanting system there is no reason to keep nerfing MORE cleric spells. Maybe it is time to go the other way and Un-Nerf Darkfire and flame weapon.

Seriously: I don't know why a class who already has a lower AB progression, HP progression, Feat Progression and has to spend feats in weapon proficiency should lose its only advantage.

And regarding the Guardians of Anubis, No-No: I have a level 14 cleric and we SWEATED over them with a level 14 fighter, 12 Mage, 14 Cleric and 9 Paladin.

[Miuo]

Seriously: With the varnishes AND the enchanting system there is no reason to keep nerfing MORE cleric spells. Maybe it is time to go the other way and Un-Nerf Darkfire and flame weapon.

Seriously: I don't know why a class who already has a lower AB progression, HP progression, Feat Progression and has to spend feats in weapon proficiency should lose its only advantage.

And regarding the Guardians of Anubis, No-No: I have a level 14 cleric and we SWEATED over them with a level 14 fighter, 12 Mage, 14 Cleric and 9 Paladin.

+1

And it is not like this spell is only usable on Clerics, we are able to use it to buff others up which helps creating a tank for the party. Most of our spell times are tweaked as is, creating spells that only last for brief moments which make them utterly useless most the time.

Cleric buffs are silly, seen level 13 cleric go solo against Guardians of Anubis which are around CR 20, whilst level 12 can easily clear max spawn lich tower.

I wish i could do that. . .i'm level 12 and even when i went with a fighter/cleric we were forced to flee when we encountered Greater Broken ones on just the second floor. Yes there are some elite builders out there that know how to use the class just right to get a power houses, but there are also quite a few who don't and end up being squishy, or those who build a class with RP in mind. Seems a bit unfair to make everyone suffer because of a select elite few.

[Kenkaku]

I vote for NOT taking away the possibility to enchant/enhance shields as that would make dual-wielding characters have the highest possible AC of anyone, full buffed.

As for the progression, As much as I like Clerics of my level being able to jump my AC up 3-4 points, it is a little... Excessive, imo. Perhaps something more along the lines of Shield of Faith would be better? Same maximum effect, but it caps out at 18th level instead of 15 (as current) or 20 (in the case of 1/4 level progression).

Removing the possibility of +5 would, I assume, be somewhat annoying to Clerics as there are varnishes that can be used for that purpose, even if they are extremely difficult to acquire now. (hehe, brains...)

[Emomina]

For the record, this spell does not need a nerf, in my opinion.

If the change is inevitable  then keep the enchantment levels, lower progression.

[HellsPanda]

I would also suggest a change of Divine Favour, giving it a slower progression

[Emomina]

Divine Favour, does indeed.    In general, any cleric spell that is only usable on self could use with the progression being slowed down. 
I hate to see the one spell that clerics can provide a party that items can't (vestment) be nerfed.  To promote clerics being less solo and more team, i think starting with Divine Favour is a much better option than vestment.

Clerics have that spell because honestly more clerics were actual 'vestments' than armor,  its not portrayed this way in PotM because militant armor wearing clerics are more action oriented and fun to play.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

I vote for NOT taking away the possibility to enchant/enhance shields as that would make dual-wielding characters have the highest possible AC of anyone, full buffed.

But is it more suiting that the highest possible AC (by a fair bit) is attainable by clerics and not melee specialists?

I must say that personally, removing the option of casting the spell on a shield is my favoured choice, since otherwise, you make the advantage of carrying a shield rather than a two-handed weapon as much as +8 AC, greatly outdoing whatever appeal holding a two handed weapon might have.

I would also suggest a change of Divine Favour, giving it a slower progression

We can make that poll next - if running this one doesn't cause a riot

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Oh, and another appeal of the option of removing the applicability to shields - instead of a cleric using the spell twice on herself then, she might decide to use the spare on someone else.

[HellsPanda]

the Difference would be


Two Hander - Parry 2 AC
Two Hander with Imp Parry - Parry 4 AC
Two Weapons - Parry 4 AC
Two weapons with two weapon defense - Parry 5 AC
Two Weapons with imp two weapon defense - Parry 6 AC
1 Hander with Tower Shield - Shield 4 AC
1 Hander with Tower Shield [with full Magice Vestment] - 8 AC

The 1 hander has the lowest DPS, so it should have the highest potential AC in my eyes

[Anarcoplayba]

the Difference would be


Two Hander - Parry 2 AC
Two Hander with Imp Parry - Parry 4 AC
Two Weapons - Parry 4 AC
Two weapons with two weapon defense - Parry 5 AC
Two Weapons with imp two weapon defense - Parry 6 AC
1 Hander with Tower Shield - Shield 4 AC
1 Hander with Tower Shield [with full Magice Vestment] - 8 AC

The 1 hander has the lowest DPS, so it should have the highest potential AC in my eyes

Of course! If I want to play a 2 weapon fighter, I'll have more attacks (usually 2x or 2x+1). If I want to play with a two handed weapon, I'll have the advantage of the damage (and sometimes the parry bonus).

And again: why should I nerf one spell that has a non-class restriction alternative?

And again: we have herbalism, we have enchanting, we have alchemy: is it REALLY an absurd that a cleric has access to a +5 AC enchantment (that won't stack with other bonuses) and anyone has access to varnishes?

There's NO imbalance, why nerf?

[HellsPanda]

there is an imbalance actually, it is not because clerics can cast Magic Vestment on shields, but from their total number of buffs, especially the Self Buff spells

[Anarcoplayba]

there is an imbalance actually, it is not because clerics can cast Magic Vestment on shields, but from their total number of buffs, especially the Self Buff spells

So one more nerf? Added to the nerf in duration of all the buffs AND the nerf in duration of the summons AND the nerf in progression of the Magic Weapons, darkfire and flame weapons?

Why don't make spellcasters a class you need to apply before chosing?

[Delete Me]

So now any individual warrior with a varnish can stomp a cleric.

I think people merely complain to much because they pissed a cleric off in the past. A cleric is only useful after casting an exhausting number of spells, the majority of which are already nerfed.  

Frankly, I use the spell on others more than I do myself, when partying.

I think clerics and mages are good at where they've been put at.

[Delete Me]

If this change takes into effect, please remove +5 varnishes for both armor and weapons.

[Shadowthrone]

I don't know why anyone would claim clerics have been nerfed too much already when they have barely been touched at all; mages have certainly taken a greater beating and they are at a fairly good level of power in my opinion. Regardless, clerics are ludicrously powerful and altering Magic Vestment will barely make a dent in that. Frankly, the fact that they are so powerful is probably why there are so many people that play them without ever bothering to roleplay deity worship.

Simply having the spell progress at +1/4, the same progression as we have for GMW, will put a minor dent in the power of the class without damaging their party buffing potential overmuch. If the intention is to decrease the power of the class so that they don't totally outmatch every other class at doing pretty much everything then there are other spells that I would suggest targeting alongside Magic Vestment: Shield of Faith and Divine Favour being foremost given that Divine Power has already been altered.

[Kagetora]

But is it more suiting that the highest possible AC (by a fair bit) is attainable by clerics and not melee specialists?

Hmmm...why not?  Why should the Cleric not be the best DEFENSIVE character out there?  It is their job, after all, to stand on the front lines supporting others, healing, and carrying the fight to the unbelievers/demons/undead/whatever.

They will never match a well-thought out melee class for offense...always points lower in AB, fewer attacks, need tons of feats to dual-wield, more points in WIS than in STR or CON, fewer HP, no Weapon Specialization, etc.

So, let the Melees be second-best in AC and best in Offense.  Let the Clerics stand in the thick of things with them and survive.

Or, nerf the spell, and others that you feel like, lower everyone's AC...but how about we go back to a real random-number generator where the monsters don't roll 15+ 50-60% of the time?

[Emomina]

+1 to Sheltatha, was going to make just that point myself.

[Shadowthrone]

I must say that personally, removing the option of casting the spell on a shield is my favoured choice, since otherwise, you make the advantage of carrying a shield rather than a two-handed weapon as much as +8 AC, greatly outdoing whatever appeal holding a two handed weapon might have.

It works both ways, though. If shields can't be buffed then there's no reason to use one over a two-handed weapon with improved parry.

I don't think removing the ability to cast Magic Vestment on shields is a sound idea. Using either a two-handed weapon or a weapon and shield both have distinct advantages, one deals significant damage whilst the other offers significant protection. The best fighter I know has taken feats in both a one-handed weapon and a two-handed weapon so that he can use either as the situation requires.