Crafting customization - an element of fun removed from the game

[ethinos]

Why not just make the examine tool give the class of armor that someone is wearing? 
Something like examining my Marijan would state 'Banded Mail or equivalent' or my Reiko 'leather armor or equivalent' ?

I would like to see the Examine Tool do this and other things.

I understand the point made about armor appearance, but much like other things, I feel its petty. or making a mountain out of a molehill.  There is limited variation between different characters as it is, i feel to lessen the amount of variation due to wanting such realism is being close minded to the detriment of the wider scheme of things. Its like creating an issue where there didn't need to be.

As I mentioned before, it seems like everyone wants to wear armor 24/7. Some folks want a pretty RP appearance though, and will craft their armor to look like everyday clothes. I think this is pretty cheesy and lazy. Buy some clothes and wear them when you aren't dungeoning. All my characters have clothes, and even have winter clothes to try and be true to the server. They don't cost much and weigh almost nothing.

I do think customization is pretty important though in one aspect. Personalization is great at making your character look unique and properly reflect himself in visual appearance. While I think that plate armor should look like plate armor, there can be thousands of variations out there. If every warrior and cleric wore plate armor though, I don't want to hear that they think everyone looks the same. After all, you are all wearing the same type of armor. You have hundreds of dyes, and probably a million visual variations available because of all the different parts that you can individually modify. If you want to be unique, wear lighter armor and put points in Dex to compensate. Full plate only allows 1 point of Dex bonus, and half plate 2 points. Someone with 16-18 Dex can get the same protection with lighter armor and truly be different.

As far as Monk robes, if folks don't like the current selection, head over to the Item Request thread and take a few minutes out of your life to suggest some. Include a screen cap and the item appearance numbers, and you might actually see that item in game. I've already had at least 4 items I've suggested get implemented.

[Miuo]

Full plate armor only has a small amount of torso options. I use two similar outfits in Miuo's RP her normal cloths that have no bonus, and then when she is getting ready to head out i put on my full plate armor that has the full plate chest piece and some arm pieces but has my gown/dress bottom. And not all the clothes are light, winter clothes are 6lbs a piece, same with quite a few Demu clothes. And there really isn't a lot of variations for color most the server has black incorporated into their armor in someway. Even now with all the freedom you have a handful of colors that are the most preferred ones used.

[ethinos]

I've done a lot of smithing/leatherworking and have noticed that most armors have at least a dozen torso variations, in addition to tabards, so I'd hardly call that "small". Wearing full plate but showing only the chest + arm pieces is probably equivalent to D&D's breastplate (which includes greaves for the legs) and only provides a AC+5. You can see why this could be misleading to the whole What You See Is What You Get.

I only have one set of winter clothes per character, but the regular stuff is still light enough that you can have one or more sets. Torgan has a set of regular clothes, a set of winters, his blacksmith apron for crafting, plus his armor. Wirth has his armor, and about 8 different stylish suit/clothes. Neither of them are inconvenienced by having this flexibility.

There are well over a hundred colors available for cloth, leather, and metal. If the majority of the folks wear black or a similar drab, dark color, don't blame the Devs for not allowing more customization. It's the players themselves that are choosing to be alike.

Edit: I guess what I and others are trying to say is this: Making full plate look like a dress, or something similarly grossly different from its actually properties, is an abuse of the system. I have a canteen that I had DM renamed to a silver flask. I can live with a small fudging of the item. But some things go too far.

[Miuo]

Think the topic will remain split and it wont get any where, i think all should just rp it as they see fit, you want such then rp it, someone wants something else let them RP that and deal with it. There are already several systems in place to enforce realism, i don't really see this worth the time or the complaints to follow to make it so. Is someone crafting their armor, spending the money to do it, letting them actually enjoy their char and offer help for them to put more depth into their char really ruining the server that much so that we need to have all armors changed so things can only look this way or that way?

Eventually it will get to the point where if you don't look like you are wearing enough clothes you should suffer more cold dmg, or if you are wearing this fabric it is more constricting and you suffer a reflex/dex penalty and etc etc.

If it must come down to it though, why not just toss up a month long vote or such and let people vote on it? Then judge from there, seems fair i think?

[Threefold]

If I remember right, the original problem was people crafting fullplate into dresses / shirt and coat / underwear / etc.

The new system has stopped certain themed items being changeable, and done nothing about the above problem, leading to aforementioned Andy Warhol effects.

I honestly think we were better off before, and I'm still kind of in the camp that thinks dressplate is silly.

Perhaps extending the original NWN system of only allowing certain armour pieces with certain AC values, and applying it to Robes, as well, would solve the 'cheesing' thing. (Allowing for massive variation in how your fullplate can look, but stopping it looking like it's just clothing)

But that seems overly complicated and time consuming. In all honesty, I'd rather the people involved in making such did other fun things rather than worrying about how people look.

[ethinos]

Think the topic will remain split and it wont get any where, i think all should just rp it as they see fit, you want such then rp it, someone wants something else let them RP that and deal with it. There are already several systems in place to enforce realism, i don't really see this worth the time or the complaints to follow to make it so. Is someone crafting their armor, spending the money to do it, letting them actually enjoy their char and offer help for them to put more depth into their char really ruining the server that much so that we need to have all armors changed so things can only look this way or that way?

Eventually it will get to the point where if you don't look like you are wearing enough clothes you should suffer more cold dmg, or if you are wearing this fabric it is more constricting and you suffer a reflex/dex penalty and etc etc.

If it must come down to it though, why not just toss up a month long vote or such and let people vote on it? Then judge from there, seems fair i think?

No. I think the customization system needs to be tweaked to not allow armor to look like dresses and vice versa. This isn't a simple aesthetic issue. This actually changes the WYSIWYG dynamic and is, in my opinion, an abuse of the customization system. You might simply want to make your clothes more interesting looking, but someone could game the system purposely to take advantage of the fact that they can appear to be unarmored when they aren't. Helmets don't look like hoods, dresses don't look like armor, etc. A non-magic dress doesn't provide the protection of full plate. That's NWN and D&D. The customization system currently allows TOO MUCH flexibility in these kinds of scenarios.

Polls? Votes? This isn't a democracy. The players don't make the rules here.

Edit: Basically, this is an exploit, and I think it needs to be fixed.

[Aahz]

Edit: Basically, this is an exploit, and I think it needs to be fixed.

I disagree. I do not even remotely consider it an exploit and I think it should be left as it is. As far as I can see the only possible way you can compare the items statics vs its appearance is when an altered item ends up in a merchants store. Instead of reducing everyone's free choice perhaps instead make it so that altered items cannot be sold to NPC merchants. Then players will not happen to encounter them and thus spare them the aggravation.

[ethinos]

My coming across altered items has nothing to do with this thread or my argument, nor would changing what NPC merchants purchase have any effect with the problem at hand.

Full plate should look like full plate. I don't see why full plate should ever look like anything else. It shouldn't look like a bikini, leather armor, a dress, a flower, or anything else. Your "free choice" is called to question when the power of customization wasn't used responsibly.

[Aahz]

My coming across altered items has nothing to do with this thread or my argument, nor would changing what NPC merchants purchase have any effect with the problem at hand.

Full plate should look like full plate. I don't see why full plate should ever look like anything else. It shouldn't look like a bikini, leather armor, a dress, a flower, or anything else. Your "free choice" is called to question when the power of customization wasn't used responsibly.

Looking at a character, you should have no idea what an item their wearing actually is. Just how do you know OOC that character X is waring armor crafted to an appearance that you do not approve of?  Also I believe that the free choice of character appearances is more important than some hardcore opinion about what armor should and should not look like.  This is a fantasy RPG game with Gothic horror elements, not the Society for Creative Anachronism authenticity hit squad.

[ethinos]

Looking at a character, you should have no idea what an item their wearing actually is. Just how do you know OOC that character X is waring armor crafted to an appearance that you do not approve of?  Also I believe that the free choice of character appearances is more important than some hardcore opinion about what armor should and should not look like.  This is a fantasy RPG game with Gothic horror elements, not the Society for Creative Anachronism authenticity hit squad.

Actually, I should have an in-character idea of what they are basically wearing. Full plate armor looks like plate armor, and my character knows what that looks like. That's been my argument from the start. By making your full plate look like a dress or something else that doesn't look like armor, you are giving yourself a tactical advantage and are cheating the system. Customizing your appearance is well and dandy, and I approve of it wholeheartedly. I spend a lot of money modifying everything. However, I make sure that when I do change something that it still resembles the item that it is. Armor looks like armor, clothes look like clothes, etc. I'd be just as annoyed if someone crafted a bastard sword into a flower, or a shield into a torch. If you want to wear a dress, wear a dress. If you want to wear full plate, wear full plate. It's an easy thing to do.

The server and Devs gave us the ability to modify appearances in the manner that we do. It's not a part of NWN, or D&D. You don't have any "right" or "freedom of choice" to customize equipment that is inherently granted to you, and I think modifications need to be made to prevent customization that results in an item being converted into something wholly different. I also think DM's should enforce this issue too, but I know they would rather be busy storytelling and I wouldn't have it any other way.

[Aahz]

Looking at a character, you should have no idea what an item their wearing actually is. Just how do you know OOC that character X is waring armor crafted to an appearance that you do not approve of?  Also I believe that the free choice of character appearances is more important than some hardcore opinion about what armor should and should not look like.  This is a fantasy RPG game with Gothic horror elements, not the Society for Creative Anachronism authenticity hit squad.

Actually, I should have an in-character idea of what they are basically wearing. Full plate armor looks like plate armor, and my character knows what that looks like. That's been my argument from the start.  By making your full plate look like a dress or something else that doesn't look like armor, you are giving yourself a tactical advantage and are cheating the system.

Tactical advantage? Cheating the system? I think that is quite a large stretch. The only way I could see this being an issue is if this were a heavy PVP server.

The server and Devs gave us the ability to modify appearances in the manner that we do. It's not a part of NWN, or D&D. You don't have any "right" or "freedom of choice" to customize equipment that is inherently granted to you, and I think modifications need to be made to prevent customization that results in an item being converted into something wholly different. I also think DM's should enforce this issue too, but I know they would rather be busy storytelling and I wouldn't have it any other way.

I actually do think I have a "right" to decide what my own character's appearance looks like.  There is no way you are going to convince me otherwise.
Fun > realism.  More options > limited options. Its really simple as that. Yeah there are things that are annoying that you have to deal with when you actually have freedom. However there will always be things you don't like and have to deal with anyway. In my mind its better to just deal with them myself and move on to the having fun part.

[ethinos]

Of course there is a tactical advantage in PvP, and while this isn't a heavy PvP server, it still happens and should be taken into consideration.

And yeah, it's cheating the system. I doubt the customization system was intended to allow full plate to look like a dress.

I also think it ruins immersion when I know that someone is wearing heavy armor but looks like they are dressed for a picnic.

As for your "right", you only have whatever rights the DMs, Devs, and Moderators allow you to have. They can be restricted or revoked entirely. We just play here, by their rules.

[Miuo]

So far it seems only few have voiced their thoughts for either side while most have said nothing? Why not agree to disagree go you're own way and leave it at that. At the moment it seems only a select few have a issue with it, while a few care about having the options and everyone just really doesn't care? There will always be things not everyone can agree to, this is likely one of them Creativity over appearance vs Realty. Mostly it seems like a personal pet peeve to you that you cant tell who is wearing what, i don't believe i am cheesing or cheating the rules. My char has a chest piece on so it isn't like you cant tell she has some armor on.  

If you begin forcing every aspect of what should be realism, then elven full plate should be far lighter then human, and hin full plate should be even lighter, clothing should have penalties against fire, there should be enforced sizes on items so a hin cant just suddenly give a set of boots they were wearing to some human, we should be able to wear five or more rings and countless amulets if we want, and other such things i stated before.

The issue i keep hearing about all this is "I should be able to see what you are wearing", well i should be able to tell what bracer's and gloves you're wearing, what rings you are wearing when you're hands are exposed as well. But i am not complaining about such because it is silly and petty, i could be spending my time rp'ing rather then judging what everyone is wearing, or what they should and shouldn't be wearing.

//Edited: Well currently it seems it is not against the rules, it seems the people that have chosen to craft their armor into what ever form they have are perfectly with in their rights to do so. This is not a PVP server, it is a RP one, as well it seems like a OOC personal issue.

[HellsPanda]

I suspect most people agree we should have more customisation than currently, but not as much as you can craft anything into anything.

As it is an RP server and not a PvP server, creating an image that best resembles the char you have in mind with the gear it is wearing is more sensible.
If not we turn clothing into just numbers, where what it is is completely irrelevant, so why make a Chainmail wearing char, when you could wear a Full Plate and make it look like a Chainmail

[Vissitude]

I'll voice my thoughts, though its pro and con.

The Cons: I agree, that Plate/Scale/Chain shouldn't look like dresses and coats (The one coat with the chain inside being the exception for chainmail). It does not fit the setting and wanting that unique or not, you won't find in any setting Darkages, Medieval or whatever a man or woman wearing full plate having plate that looks like a cloth outfit. Sure, maybe someone throws a robe over their armor, but no one actually ROLEPLAYS the clanging that full plate would make if its on.

The Pros: I think some customization would be nice, for leathers and clothing to say the least. I often considered playing a monk for example, but the style of clothing just doesn't fit the setting to me. This is Ravenloft. Horror/Macabre/Dark, not Anime so the whole Street Fighter and Anime theme really never made sense to me. Not to mention, what person is going to wear something in the Core that barely covers the body, especially with the cold scripts that are in. Who runs around in a bikini or shirtless pants when its freezing outside. So yes, I think in these instances, it would be nice to allow some customization if only slightly limited, cause even in Kara-tur I've seen some of the art, and their outfits are suffice it to say not Anime looking


That's my thoughts. Take them or leave them. My bard carries at least four dresses, and her armor in another bag, lol. Who fights in a dress anyways? That's just silly.

[Thoraion]

Actually, I should have an in-character idea of what they are basically wearing. Full plate armor looks like plate armor, and my character knows what that looks like. That's been my argument from the start. By making your full plate look like a dress or something else that doesn't look like armor, you are giving yourself a tactical advantage and are cheating the system. Customizing your appearance is well and dandy, and I approve of it wholeheartedly. I spend a lot of money modifying everything. However, I make sure that when I do change something that it still resembles the item that it is. Armor looks like armor, clothes look like clothes, etc. I'd be just as annoyed if someone crafted a bastard sword into a flower, or a shield into a torch. If you want to wear a dress, wear a dress. If you want to wear full plate, wear full plate. It's an easy thing to do.

I have nothing to add so far, so just:

+1

Oh, and to Vissitude:
again, +1

[ethinos]

Why not agree to disagree go you're own way and leave it at that.

Because I would like to see changes made to prevent this kind of thing. I am not against customization. Just customization that completely and unreasonably changes one item into something completely unrelated.

If you begin forcing every aspect of what should be realism, then elven full plate should be far lighter then human, and hin full plate should be even lighter, clothing should have penalties against fire, there should be enforced sizes on items so a hin cant just suddenly give a set of boots they were wearing to some human, we should be able to wear five or more rings and countless amulets if we want, and other such things i stated before.

Actually, I lobby a lot for these kinds of changes. You can probably find my comments going all the way back to 2007 about making things less generic, and more appropriate for the server and atmosphere.

The issue i keep hearing about all this is "I should be able to see what you are wearing", well i should be able to tell what bracer's and gloves you're wearing, what rings you are wearing when you're hands are exposed as well. But i am not complaining about such because it is silly and petty, i could be spending my time rp'ing rather then judging what everyone is wearing, or what they should and shouldn't be wearing.

If you look, I made a thread about trying to get more weapon placeables for your character. I would love to see everything worn by your character to be displayed on your avatar. Unfortunately, I don't think thats going to happen. I am not judging, so get that out of your head. I want plate mail to look like plate mail. Not a breastplate, not a robe, etc., etc. Its pretty simple and easy to comprehend.

//Edited: Well currently it seems it is not against the rules, it seems the people that have chosen to craft their armor into what ever form they have are perfectly with in their rights to do so. This is not a PVP server, it is a RP one, as well it seems like a OOC personal issue.

1. “Play how you like as long as you don’t impair the roleplay experience of others.”
2. “Be authentic to your character and the setting.”

Obviously, you can tell that it impairs my roleplaying. I also don't think you are being authentic to the setting. There is no such thing as a full plate dress in Ravenloft, NWN, or D&D. Besides, most rules are only put in place after an issue has come to light. Just because there isn't a rule about it now, doesn't mean there won't be in the future. Classifying this as an issue thats related to RP, PVP, OOC, or personal, does not mean that it isn't an issue.

[Aahz]

Why not agree to disagree go you're own way and leave it at that.

Because I would like to see changes made to prevent this kind of thing. I am not against customization. Just customization that completely and unreasonably changes one item into something completely unrelated.

The developers will implement the systems they want, and are not likely to do so if they do not see an actual need from a majority of players. Believe me, the same thing being said over and over by the same person is not going to get you anywhere.

I disagree with you on almost every point you have. Here is the thing though, my opinions do not force a game mechanic change on you while your opinions would do so to me. You obviously enjoy a level of hardcore rules that would make me want to burn all my skin off. Its a moot point however, They may change things they might not.  However my gaming preferences are just as important as yours are. This is a shared space and compromises must be made by everyone.

[Miuo]

It can be said you're wanting of everyone to follow hardcore rules and conform to what pleases you to be be impairing the roleplay of others as well.

[DM Tarokka]

I will just add that in the server as common sensical rule we enforce the "You get what you see", thus using a cloth-appearance for something in metal is technically cheesing. Told this, you are free to craft however you like a cloth in another cloth, a piece of metal in another similar piece of metal. The rest is cheesing: the fact we are not enforcing it is because we cannot really spend (waste) our time to check any single inventory. We definitely confide in common sense here.

For the rest, please, stay on topic, avoid personal attacks to each others, otherwise I will need to lock this thread until the heads are "cooler". Cheers

[ethinos]

It can be said you're wanting of everyone to follow hardcore rules and conform to what pleases you to be be impairing the roleplay of others as well.

No, it can't. Because my wishes and wants don't constitute "play", whereas your roleplaying does.

I will just add that in the server as common sensical rule we enforce the "You get what you see", thus using a cloth-appearance for something in metal is technically cheesing. Told this, you are free to craft however you like a cloth in another cloth, a piece of metal in another similar piece of metal. The rest is cheesing: the fact we are not enforcing it is because we cannot really spend (waste) our time to check any single inventory. We definitely confide in common sense here.

For the rest, please, stay on topic, avoid personal attacks to each others, otherwise I will need to lock this thread until the heads are "cooler". Cheers

[Badelaire]

Ethinos, no. Just no. No, no no NO NO!

If I want to have my fighter parade around in an altered set of full plate to look like a pink tutu then I should! It's not fair I tells ya!

[ethinos]

Ethinos, no. Just no. No, no no NO NO!

If I want to have my fighter parade around in an altered set of full plate to look like a pink tutu then I should! It's not fair I tells ya!

Ok, to bring it slightly back on topic, and to prevent some of the problem the OP came across, but if an item is to be non-customizable, is there some way we can put that in the description? Would be nice to know before spending your money or making a trade if a robe, armor, clothes, etc. was "locked" from being customized.

[Aahz]

Ok, to bring it slightly back on topic, and to prevent some of the problem the OP came across, but if an item is to be non-customizable, is there some way we can put that in the description? Would be nice to know before spending your money or making a trade if a robe, armor, clothes, etc. was "locked" from being customized.

Yeah, I agree with this.

[respawnaholic]

I will just add that in the server as common sensical rule we enforce the "You get what you see", thus using a cloth-appearance for something in metal is technically cheesing. Told this, you are free to craft however you like a cloth in another cloth, a piece of metal in another similar piece of metal. The rest is cheesing: the fact we are not enforcing it is because we cannot really spend (waste) our time to check any single inventory. We definitely confide in common sense here.

For the rest, please, stay on topic, avoid personal attacks to each others, otherwise I will need to lock this thread until the heads are "cooler". Cheers

I agree with this in theory, but in practical application I wouldnt call it cheezing in PVP because I just automatically assume the 'toon' is wearing the heaviest armor possible regardless of their toons costume. I think any reasonable person would. As for the topic itself I dont care either way. The only cheese on the server that routinely gets to me are the fatigue rules. THOSE I can do without.