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Author Topic: XP  (Read 28080 times)

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: XP
« Reply #175 on: February 18, 2011, 03:31:28 AM »
Well it actually does to some degree.

Thoraion

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Re: XP
« Reply #176 on: February 18, 2011, 05:34:43 AM »
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I assume the essential question remains why we do not reward the soloer more when the effective challenge is greater on his own.
No, the central question is what can be done to reduce soloing - and that requires an understanding on why soloing happens, so these are the things to be adressed.

Oh, I thought this topic was about XP. My bad, the title was a bit confusing. ;)
Yes, it is... but the two topics are so much mingled that they are hard to discuss separately.
And yes, discussing the XP-gain of soloers (and small groups) should be given some more attention. But since i am aware of your attitude, i concentrated on the question on how to solve the problem of players who solo. So if a way can be found that reduces soloing in the first place or significantly changes the motivation to solo, that adresses XP-issues as well.

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Imagine that you know a certain dungeon has a good spawn and you know that you are reasonable well able to handle it on your own. If two others then present themselves and inquire whether they can tag along, you would be left in the dilemma of choosing between the roleplay and the XP. Partially, what we want to do is avoid this dilemma.
antithesis: what you do is not necessarily encouraging teaming up for that dungeon. The XP-gain is the same then, the loot is divided. And if i am right here, in a dungeon that one player can handle alone, the XP-gain is close to zero. So taking more players along leads to even more players getting close to zero XPs. Can you follow me on this?

Then they could go to another harder dungeon or they could go further in. That's how it usually works I reckon, but even if it doesn't no one would have lost anything in comparison to each going there (or similar places on their own).
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Now we are back to the time-issue. And i found "going to a harder dungeon" is sometimes not that easily done as it is said. As for no one losing anything in comparison...
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The XP-gain is the same then, the loot is divided.But granted, teaming can be more fun and reduces the challenge (which is not always intended...)
XP gain is near zero still.
Soloing is not the REAL problem, it is a way for some to solve another problem.

But shouldn't we try to solve the real problem then rather than having even more soloing that now? That what was the point I tried to make in the prior post if you didn't notice.
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That's what i have been preaching here all the time in this thread... i just point it out at every occassion to discourage the usual mor... that does not notice and turns the threat in a rant over the evils of soloing.

The mechanism that punishes soloing beats soloers just as it beats small groups - and the latter even harder.

How? With all presented to you about the systems, I cannot see how you could reach that conclusion. In fact, from what I've observed, everyone who can just manage to gather three people in group (sometimes two is well enough) has little difficulty gaining enough XP to sate what the XP soft cap allows.[/quote]
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The XP-gain is the same then, the loot is divided.
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I'd say that the XP mechanism only discourage low level area farming, since otherwise, you might actually be able to gain some XP there on your own while you couldn't as a group.
Theory: Soloing occurs there, where the soloer expects a challenge that matches his own skills and where he expects the highest reward (XP and/or loot, or just fun). So these areas tend to be about 4 levels below where you want them to go. But on the other side, if a small group teams up, chances are high that they go to that very same area, because of...
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The proximity issue you mention is relevant, but it is only there if you insist on being a high level character residing in a low level zone. From the Mist Camp, for one, there's a short travel distance to most high level areas. Perhaps we should do more to make other places attractive to use as base of operation for that point? Again, the XP mechanism isn't the culprit here.
Well, since the XP-system multiplies the reason to go to high level areas in the first place (besides a few other reasons...), the connection is there.
But you adress the next core question. High level areas are most of the time something where you need to go first. You do not play there all the time because most of the time you are alone there... or you always meet the same three characters there. That's a start you may say... but i still prefer the outskirts with newbies that i can help.

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The server was built with roleplay in mind. Quite many manage to both go see the more exotic places and do more non-fight roleplay too. [...] Since we are primarily here to provide a scene for roleplay, I don't see that as stupid nor necessarily a problem - just as much effort has been put into facilitating roleplay in general, and it would be equally a loss if people missed out on that.
All of a sudden i realize that creating the areas may at first glance be more impressive, but that implementing the several systems and finetuning them may in fact be much more work... (no matter what one may think of some systems and their impact on role playing). But it is true - the mass of customizing in terms of additional or altered systems is something very special.
Well, you HAVE a point there, but i believe my argument is still valid. There is still much work invested in the higher level areas, i am sure - and who will see those areas? I Know the answer.
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Darktide18

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Re: XP
« Reply #177 on: February 19, 2011, 09:17:07 AM »
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Revised XP generation to increase effective CR of a creature based on encounter group size.

Soren you are the freakin man!   :rock: :fonzie:

Kenkaku

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Re: XP
« Reply #178 on: February 19, 2011, 09:54:57 AM »
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Revised XP generation to increase effective CR of a creature based on encounter group size.

Soren you are the freakin man!   :rock: :fonzie:

Might it be possible to get a little insight as to how exactly this new system works?
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DM Tarokka

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Re: XP
« Reply #179 on: February 19, 2011, 10:58:05 AM »
CAIN: "You told him! I told you not to and you TOLD him! It was a mystery, and you gave it away."

ABEL: "Buhbut CAIN, it's not one of the BIG secrets. It's not important.

CAIN {bludgeoning}: "THAT'S. NOT. THE. POINT!"
CAIN: "I keep TELLING you: It's the MYSTERY that endures, NOT the explanation. "
CAIN: "A good mystery can last for EVER. The mysterious corpse has a magic all its own."
CAIN: "Nobody really CARES who-done-it. The'll peck you to pieces if you tell them, little brother...it's for your own good..."
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Norture

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Re: XP
« Reply #180 on: February 19, 2011, 05:11:41 PM »
CAIN: "You told him! I told you not to and you TOLD him! It was a mystery, and you gave it away."

ABEL: "Buhbut CAIN, it's not one of the BIG secrets. It's not important.

CAIN {bludgeoning}: "THAT'S. NOT. THE. POINT!"
CAIN: "I keep TELLING you: It's the MYSTERY that endures, NOT the explanation. "
CAIN: "A good mystery can last for EVER. The mysterious corpse has a magic all its own."
CAIN: "Nobody really CARES who-done-it. The'll peck you to pieces if you tell them, little brother...it's for your own good..."

So what you're saying is I should start a rumor that you're more likely to succeed with crafting if you're well fed?

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: XP
« Reply #181 on: February 19, 2011, 06:40:23 PM »
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Revised XP generation to increase effective CR of a creature based on encounter group size.

Soren you are the freakin man!   :rock: :fonzie:

Might it be possible to get a little insight as to how exactly this new system works?

To avoid people speculating in ways to exploit/gain advantage of it, I'll only explain in somewhat generic terms. Essentially, what it does is to calculate the amount of creatures in an encounter and the average strength. Each creature in the encounter is then given a small increase in CR based on those factors - thus resulting in a slightly larger XP reward. This is to reflect that it is considerably harder to fight a creature if it is fighting along with allies compared to meeting it on it's own.

Norture

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Re: XP
« Reply #182 on: February 19, 2011, 09:23:07 PM »
Oh, I thought it meant that fighting in a group of players would increase the CR (and thus xp) of the encounter.

Kenkaku

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Re: XP
« Reply #183 on: February 19, 2011, 09:32:57 PM »
>> That'd be a little excessive, imo. Though, I do like the idea to implement that system. I always enjoyed it more than throwing one giant enemy at people.
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Thoraion

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Re: XP
« Reply #184 on: February 20, 2011, 05:19:08 AM »
To avoid people speculating in ways to exploit/gain advantage of it, I'll only explain in somewhat generic terms. Essentially, what it does is to calculate the amount of creatures in an encounter and the average strength. Each creature in the encounter is then given a small increase in CR based on those factors - thus resulting in a slightly larger XP reward. This is to reflect that it is considerably harder to fight a creature if it is fighting along with allies compared to meeting it on it's own.

The word "slight" makes me hesitate... but:  :thumbup:
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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: XP
« Reply #185 on: February 20, 2011, 06:41:37 AM »
Well, in general, I always feel it's better to start with the 'slight' and scale up as deemed necessary through experience. Slight is of course a very generic word though and doesn't say much - the ultimately aim is that it should largely match the increase in challenge, so I'll be around looking at the numbers.

Threefold

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Re: XP
« Reply #186 on: February 20, 2011, 07:11:17 AM »
In general, more XP for fighting harder groups?

As an idiot who dosen't think a dungeon was worth it if he hasn't hit Near Death twice, I approve.

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: XP
« Reply #187 on: February 20, 2011, 07:38:48 AM »
In general, more XP for fighting harder groups?

Yeah, you could say. Let me give an example, though the numbers are only illustrative and not at all precise.

A shadow on it's own has a CR of 3. When killing it, you get the XP based on that CR.

With this new system, a shadow encountered among 5 other creatures may be considered as having CR 4 instead. The reasoning is that a creature fighting in a group is much harder to fight that on it's own, not only because there's more to hack through, but because the presence of others effectively increase the individual challenge. One on one, you can focus all your prowess and defence on that creature, but when fightiing multiple foes, you need to direct it at multiple targets, diminishing the opposition you can give to each.

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Re: XP
« Reply #188 on: February 20, 2011, 08:43:24 AM »
So, out of interest, which would be more profitable in XP?

A group of level 8's fighting a CR 10 Clay Golem

Same group of level 8's fighting five CR 6 Loup-Garoux's?

From my experiences, one hard enemy is always a lot tougher than lots of easier enemies, and should be rewarded appropriately. If you can easily beat one creature, you can likely beat ten of them without much hassle (once you get to the point where they need 19 or 20 to hit you, and such).

Thoraion

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Re: XP
« Reply #189 on: February 20, 2011, 08:58:38 AM »
From my experiences, one hard enemy is always a lot tougher than lots of easier enemies, and should be rewarded appropriately. If you can easily beat one creature, you can likely beat ten of them without much hassle (once you get to the point where they need 19 or 20 to hit you, and such).
That depends on the creatures CR as a rule, but there are many exceptions to that. Think of spiders and shadows in large numbers - they can bring down a level 10 faster than a single CR 8 monster
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Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: XP
« Reply #190 on: February 20, 2011, 09:24:21 AM »
So, out of interest, which would be more profitable in XP?

A group of level 8's fighting a CR 10 Clay Golem

Same group of level 8's fighting five CR 6 Loup-Garoux's?

From my experiences, one hard enemy is always a lot tougher than lots of easier enemies, and should be rewarded appropriately. If you can easily beat one creature, you can likely beat ten of them without much hassle (once you get to the point where they need 19 or 20 to hit you, and such).

You'll still gain more XP from the clay golem by far. The system factors all this into it's logics.

From my experiences, one hard enemy is always a lot tougher than lots of easier enemies, and should be rewarded appropriately. If you can easily beat one creature, you can likely beat ten of them without much hassle (once you get to the point where they need 19 or 20 to hit you, and such).
That depends on the creatures CR as a rule, but there are many exceptions to that. Think of spiders and shadows in large numbers - they can bring down a level 10 faster than a single CR 8 monster

Creatures that poison and similar are usually hard to estimate fairly CR wise, since it tends to be a situation where being immune makes all the difference. I think the current system leaves it a fair compromise though.


Axel

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Re: XP
« Reply #191 on: February 20, 2011, 09:41:42 AM »
So, out of interest, which would be more profitable in XP?

A group of level 8's fighting a CR 10 Clay Golem

Same group of level 8's fighting five CR 6 Loup-Garoux's?

From my experiences, one hard enemy is always a lot tougher than lots of easier enemies, and should be rewarded appropriately. If you can easily beat one creature, you can likely beat ten of them without much hassle (once you get to the point where they need 19 or 20 to hit you, and such).

You'll still gain more XP from the clay golem by far. The system factors all this into it's logics.

From my experiences, one hard enemy is always a lot tougher than lots of easier enemies, and should be rewarded appropriately. If you can easily beat one creature, you can likely beat ten of them without much hassle (once you get to the point where they need 19 or 20 to hit you, and such).
That depends on the creatures CR as a rule, but there are many exceptions to that. Think of spiders and shadows in large numbers - they can bring down a level 10 faster than a single CR 8 monster

Creatures that poison and similar are usually hard to estimate fairly CR wise, since it tends to be a situation where being immune makes all the difference. I think the current system leaves it a fair compromise though.



For comparison, using the DMG 3.5:
Five CR 6 monsters would give a bit more XP than one CR 10 monster, since they have an EL of a bit above 10. (4 CR 6 is EL 10)

Threefold

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Re: XP
« Reply #192 on: February 20, 2011, 11:51:09 AM »
Good good. Didn't want my efforts in fighting things that take a third of my health bar off in one punch to be in vain. :P

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Re: XP
« Reply #193 on: April 14, 2011, 03:51:08 PM »
Sorry if this is the wrong thread, I couldn;t find a recent discussion on the topic. Why was rp xp reduced so drastically ? Not a complaint, just a simple question.

~Taty~

Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: XP
« Reply #194 on: April 14, 2011, 06:43:07 PM »
Besides the replies given in this topic, also check those given in this:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=21267.15

It is addressed numerous times in both topics.