Author Topic: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.  (Read 7457 times)

Aduial

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #25 on: March 01, 2011, 11:49:16 AM »
If you want to solve this situation, my opinion is that probably everyone should make a step back and listen to the other part and perhaps even thinking to change some of his own ideas.

Heretic said this thing...
 ...anyone not agreeing or accepting this server culture, will have a hard time fitting in and finding fulfillment out of a gaming session.

And well i agree this is understandable really, but the problem here from what i see is not the culture of the server but HOW this culture is reached.

The introduction of a new system is not something directly  integrated in the culture of the server, it is something that should help players to feel more close to it, however there is no absolute truth that  says that all systems introduced are always right.
This is why i believe some players (including me) sometimes posted in this forum saying: " ehy guys perhaps this new system doesn t help much perhaps we should think to change it and so on....."; and from what i saw the people that generally post those things are constructive and good players, so why should one not listen to them?

I Want to add just one last thing, nothing personal but i believe that the point of view of a player of this server is surely more objective and well founded
than the one of a person who doesn t play or play only in certain particular events, this because playing give you a complete perception of what is happening to the server,and when a changment happens you see very well what changes around you, without playing you can only  "imagine" what is happening in game, as i said nothing personal , just a matter of fact.

Zarathustra217

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #26 on: March 01, 2011, 12:58:19 PM »
This is why i believe some players (including me) sometimes posted in this forum saying: " ehy guys perhaps this new system doesn t help much perhaps we should think to change it and so on....."; and from what i saw the people that generally post those things are constructive and good players, so why should one not listen to them?

Everyone who've been constructive about their posts have been well listened to. Even a lot who haven't been, have been listened to, their opinions weighted and addressed. What has led to some frustration is that some tend to restate the same arguments over and over, far beyond when they've been addressed in depth. And even after that, some of these people consistently claim to have been ignored.

In that extend, certain cases of what may have seemed as genuine attempts at constructive discussions could perhaps seem as being disregarded - but that has solely been when it's people just starting an ongoing discussion all over again in a new topic, rolling every argument back a step. It may have seemed off - which is unfortunate - but you have to know the full context to understand to properly assess it.

Further, regarding the entire "love it or leave it" sentiment, allow me to attempt clearing out some misunderstandings there might be lingering regarding it and what it is. No one has simply put up a "love it or leave it" sign to anyone who've just put in question the validity of the changes implemented. But at some point, when all arguments have been presented and it turns out to be a matter of fundamental disagreement on what works and what makes for a good experience, it will inevitably be a matter of either liking what we do and what we want this place to be about - or not. Further arguments down the same line will just have us going in circles that'll lead us nowhere and just be a great waste energy for everyone. At times, when it has become evident that certain individuals simply do not like what we do, and spend every occasion they can voicing this same opinion in an acidic, bitter or derogatory way, we may then ask people to learn to accept it or move on. It may seem harsh, but if people persist without cease, I cannot see what else we can do. I would really appreciate hearing alternatives though (here or in PMs).

Please also keep in mind that we - as designers - have our inspirations and aspirations, our aims and ambitions. That is what keeps us going, that is what made us build this place in the first place. At times, we may need to be told that something isn't working as we intend, that the reality just didn't absorb our ideas as we had imagined - in that sense, feedback is essential to us. But when it turns out to be a disagreement about what our work should be about and what ideals we should set, there is little room for compromise, because compromise on that account would dissolve our motivation, our very being. This notion is from where all the sentiments of "love it or leave it" at it's core stem.

DM Strigoi

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #27 on: March 01, 2011, 02:03:38 PM »


ill be honest when i see those loooooong posts about "fear spell mechanic" for example, i just skip it and dont bother reading lol. honestly its a game, play it and enjoy it, or find another game that does that for you. a game by definition is supposed to be fun, if your not having fun play another game! sometimes i get frustrated here and take breaks, because i dont want to play here if im frustrated and upset. playing here frustrated will effect your play style, and your attitude on the forums (and i learned that the hard way :cry:)

i think some of the players here are due for a break. take some time off POTM, and try out some other servers/games. once you see whats out there, i think you will appreciate this server 100x more and be thankful for it even existing.
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Taty

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #28 on: March 02, 2011, 08:01:12 AM »
Interesting thread.

People do overreact to changes on this server and its usually the same ones condemning every change. It is natural that this would become a point of frustration for the staff. It is also natural to not like change.

In turn the staff do not take criticism well (ironically the reason they gave me to exclude me from MPC's) and will over time hold it against a player. They also don't usually give much, if any , warning about significant system changes. It can be disappointing when your build concept is flushed down the toilet after investing a year in it (like some felt when listen items became common making stealth useless).

If one wants a happy POTM existence it is best to keep your mouth shut. It is amazing how quickly being critical can morph your persona into someone you aren't even similar to (apparently I'm a meta gaming, tag teamer who cannot be trusted despite never breaking a rule or ever having a complaint that the ruling found me at fault).

The Dev team isn't perfect but they try very hard and are more responsive to cold clinical data than to emotional responses. If a system totally ruins your time here express the facts and why you do not like it without going into a personal argument that steps outside of the topic (POTM ruined forever blah blah) .

Lastly, people have long been rude and unkind on these forums, but I have always attributed that to their strong attachment to the server (myself included). When people get emotional and possessive about things then they tend to forget their manners. Also keep in mind you do not know what is going on in their lives and if their reactions are not perhaps stimulated by real life events (heretic for example is always less kind when he has been rejected by a woman, which is why he is always so grumpy :P ).

Don't make my mistake, do not be critical to the point of hurting feelings, you will find you can easily upset people with long lasting consequences. It simply isn't worth it over a game.

~Taty~


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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #29 on: March 02, 2011, 08:43:16 AM »
If by this:

In turn the staff do not take criticism well (ironically the reason they gave me to exclude me from MPC's) and will over time hold it against a player.

you refer to this:

The Dev team isn't perfect but they try very hard and are more responsive to cold clinical data than to emotional responses. If a system totally ruins your time here express the facts and why you do not like it without going into a personal argument that steps outside of the topic (POTM ruined forever blah blah) .
...
Don't make my mistake, do not be critical to the point of hurting feelings, you will find you can easily upset people with long lasting consequences. It simply isn't worth it over a game.

I don't feel it warrants saying we don't take criticism well. At times, there might have been long lasting consequences, but only when there's been long lasting tendencies and many (to some too many) chances given.

Also, your entire post seems a bit self-contradicting to me - you manage to several times insinuate various derogatory accusations and yet impose that you are here to advocate people not getting personal.

Lighten up, Tats. You need it too. :icecream:
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 08:47:02 AM by Zarathustra217 »

Taty

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2011, 08:51:15 AM »
Simply trying to illustrate how continued criticism can result in distorting the staffs ( or any one else's) perception of a person. It was not intended to hurt anyones feelings. I accept that I am treated differently by the staff because of my attitude toward them and take full responsibility. Not exactly sure what chances you refer to.

~Taty~

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #31 on: March 02, 2011, 09:10:38 AM »
Okay, since I'm partially responsible for this post, I'd like to give my two cents of opinion (which converted from my currency to yours should be worth 1 cent).

I'm a kinda conservative guy. I dislike being surprised. Thus, when one system changes, or a DM takes off the exit of some dungeon I get VERY pissed off.

For instance: When the raise system was implemented, I got pissed off. Then  soren added the 100 gp diamonds. Then made the diamonds 100, 500 and 2000 gp. Then he made the diamonds not being consumed if the raise/ressurrection fails.

Well, NOW, I truly don't care about the raise system. Seems ok. No problem. There's no reason to grant a clerics friend more benefits that the ordinary player.

All the "ruined forever" thread could be avoided (at least partially) if the system were announced with, say, one week of precedence.

What I think is: Players have it's share of guilt, Staff too.

When we see a series of system being implemented without forewarning and without consideration to feedback, we get upset. If our complains are met with sarcasm, cynism, irony, or sheer agressiveness, we may STFU untill the server cease to meet our needs. Then we have players who dedicated months of their spare time in the construction of a PC simply moving away and leaving the server.

If we (players and staff) don't try to have a flexible posting policy, sooner or later there will be more agressive discussions culminating with players (and maybe Staff members) leaving.

Thanks for your attention.
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EO

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #32 on: March 02, 2011, 09:23:42 AM »
Quote
I'm a kinda conservative guy. I dislike being surprised. Thus, when one system changes, or a DM takes off the exit of some dungeon I get VERY pissed off.

It's good that you're self-aware. A lot of people unfortunately never realize their flaws. That being said, if you know you get very pissed off, what about cooling down and not posting about new systems? If you are very pissed off, chances are your posts will reflect that and your feedback will be negative and filled with hurt feelings. That, in turn, will just agitate people who receive your feedback, leading to more negativity.

Instead, what I'd suggest is to try the system, a week or two, give it a real chance, then post your feedback. Show restrain initially even if it angers you, especially since you know that change is something that upsets you. If you still dislike it after trying it, you'll have arguments to present and things you see don't work. And we're open to that when we notice problems with things we implement. We tend to make a -lot- of adjustments to our systems (something that is also very time-consuming) and anyone who's seen systems being implemented know that we refine them over time. It's normal that we don't get it right the first time, we learn by making mistakes.

It's unfortunate that, as players, you are impacted by these initial mishaps, but that's how we've always worked here for as long as I can remember (and I can remember bitching a lot about the weather system back when I was a player and it would be 100 degrees outside or minus 100).

Quote
All the "ruined forever" thread could be avoided (at least partially) if the system were announced with, say, one week of precedence.

We've actually tried that approach and the "ruined forever" people posted it would be terrible before the system was even implemented.: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=22756.0. You posted in there as well. Some of the points raised initially are things we then noticed afterwards when people used it and corrected (your suggestion not to use diamonds for failed attempts and toning down the badly impaired system), so it was good hindsight, but it was overshadowed by dozens of posts of people saying it would ruin the server forever (including yours ;)).
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 09:25:50 AM by EO »

dutchy

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #33 on: March 02, 2011, 09:41:15 AM »
Someone made a good one liner.

The community starts to think they own this place wich is untrue it belongs to the staff

Ps/ woot taty posted     

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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #34 on: March 02, 2011, 09:55:49 AM »

Quote
All the "ruined forever" thread could be avoided (at least partially) if the system were announced with, say, one week of precedence.

We've actually tried that approach and the "ruined forever" people posted it would be terrible before the system was even implemented.: http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=22756.0. You posted in there as well. Some of the points raised initially are things we then noticed afterwards when people used it and corrected (your suggestion not to use diamonds for failed attempts and toning down the badly impaired system), so it was good hindsight, but it was overshadowed by dozens of posts of people saying it would ruin the server forever (including yours ;)).

Wait... when I say "forewarns" I'm saying "In 15 days", "In two weeks", etc., no "Next Update we will".

In fact, taking this thread as example, the system was implemented and one day later tiny diamonds were added and the small diamonds were updated. And weeks later the failed attempt stopped to claim diamonds.

Maybe with a discussion a little bit larger we would have avoided the discussion. Maybe not, but let's face it: there is a big difference between "next update" and "next week".
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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #35 on: March 02, 2011, 10:10:58 AM »
You are right there, but EO is in part right too, although the example was not the best. The general practice we have origins from much earlier in the servers history, where we tried both ways. Discussing it in prior tended to yield an even sterner resilience toward experimenting with changes, having many people make up their mind even before trying it out. When we say we implement things as an experiment though, we do mean it, because one of the surest thing we've learned through the long history of the server is that we (and the players) cannot fully predict how things will add up without putting it in to practice, at least for a period.

dutchy

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #36 on: March 02, 2011, 11:28:24 AM »
true soren you are forcing people to try it out wich is the best option as people are like little kids if they see somthing weird on their dinner plate they refuse to eat it.

BUT are there any systems taken out that where implemented even after folks didnt like it?

we all learned to adapt and live with the systems some great some well il refrain from saying it lol

so that some are frustrated and post that way makes sense  and for the staff to return that behaviour is normal aswell  you can only take so much complaints befor you trow in the towl and bark back.

*waves the neutral flag*

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #37 on: March 02, 2011, 12:33:26 PM »
BUT are there any systems taken out that where implemented even after folks didnt like it?

Many incarnations of the death system have. Also, a bit minor, but the system that segmented feedback messages was too.

Aahz

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #38 on: March 02, 2011, 12:53:38 PM »
Many incarnations of the death system have.

How long ago was that?
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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #39 on: March 02, 2011, 01:55:58 PM »
Many incarnations of the death system have.

How long ago was that?
the original version of the death system required you to wait in the near ethereal a number of minutes equal to your level before they could return to the gameworld, resulting in people being bored to tears standing around in the death area for long amounts of time (up to 30+ minutes for a high level character), so we changed it

At one time, dying made you drop all equipped items, which other players could loot. People hated it, so we changed it.

We added a respawn option a few years ago based on feedback

the chances of a corpse becoming impaired have been reduced significantly from the initial version, based on feedback

And just this week we've made it so a "zombie raise" doesn't consume the diamonds used to cast a spell, again based on feedback.

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Aahz

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #40 on: March 02, 2011, 02:28:13 PM »
Many incarnations of the death system have.

How long ago was that?
the original version of the death system required you to wait in the near ethereal a number of minutes equal to your level before they could return to the gameworld, resulting in people being bored to tears standing around in the death area for long amounts of time (up to 30+ minutes for a high level character), so we changed it

At one time, dying made you drop all equipped items, which other players could loot. People hated it, so we changed it.

We added a respawn option a few years ago based on feedback


I see, that was before my time here.

the chances of a corpse becoming impaired have been reduced significantly from the initial version, based on feedback

And just this week we've made it so a "zombie raise" doesn't consume the diamonds used to cast a spell, again based on feedback.

Point of fact. Those are changes to things that were added and not removals.
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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #41 on: March 02, 2011, 03:11:50 PM »
Many incarnations of the death system have.

How long ago was that?
the original version of the death system required you to wait in the near ethereal a number of minutes equal to your level before they could return to the gameworld, resulting in people being bored to tears standing around in the death area for long amounts of time (up to 30+ minutes for a high level character), so we changed it

At one time, dying made you drop all equipped items, which other players could loot. People hated it, so we changed it.

We added a respawn option a few years ago based on feedback


I see, that was before my time here.

the chances of a corpse becoming impaired have been reduced significantly from the initial version, based on feedback

And just this week we've made it so a "zombie raise" doesn't consume the diamonds used to cast a spell, again based on feedback.

Point of fact. Those are changes to things that were added and not removals.
what difference does that make?

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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #42 on: March 02, 2011, 03:20:53 PM »
Once upon a time, there was a jail with room for only 20 people. The twenty people were there, living as prisoners, when the sheriff tossed another 5 people.

The prisoners complained, but accepted.

Then the Sheriff tossed more five. The prisoners complained more, for more time, but accepted.

Then the Sheriff tossed more ten people. Unable to sleep properly the prisoners complained a lot, for a long time, unhappy, complaining everyday.

The Sheriff then tossed one dead skunk inside the cell. The prisoners started to complain, asking please to at least take the dead skunk out.

The Sheriff agreed and took the dead skunk out.

The the prisoners said thanks to the Sheriff and never complained again.

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Aahz

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #43 on: March 02, 2011, 03:23:43 PM »
Point of fact. Those are changes to things that were added and not removals.
what difference does that make?

BUT are there any systems taken out that where implemented even after folks didnt like it?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2011, 03:25:51 PM by Aahz »
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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #44 on: March 02, 2011, 03:31:59 PM »
Aahz, Blue said several systems where removed after people said they didn't like them. The fact this was mostly 4+ years ago doesn't matter, he also stated that most systems where modified. And one of the reasons we have this server, and why it will keep surviving for ages, is because our Devs like playing with various scripts, if they never tried new things, they could grow bored, and stop working on it at all. And then we wouldn't have a server

dutchy

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #45 on: March 02, 2011, 04:27:48 PM »
the reason i asked is people wonder it and assume it has never happend, soren i think knew what my intention with the question was and indeed awnsered that not all systems survive.

(or some rez themzelves like the swarm system lol) 

point is everyone goes on about everything while only those from day 1 know how it was and how it is now those know all there is to know  the rest of us came by later and miss a few puzzle pieces for the complete picture.

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Aahz

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #46 on: March 02, 2011, 04:52:23 PM »
Aahz, Blue said several systems where removed after people said they didn't like them. The fact this was mostly 4+ years ago doesn't matter, he also stated that most systems where modified.

I'm just making sure I understand the facts.
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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #47 on: March 02, 2011, 05:12:56 PM »
Aahz, Blue said several systems where removed after people said they didn't like them. The fact this was mostly 4+ years ago doesn't matter, he also stated that most systems where modified.

I'm just making sure I understand the facts.
It seems more like you were nit-picking over semantics because then you wouldn't have to admit that you've been wrong that we don't change/remove things based on feedback.

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #48 on: March 02, 2011, 05:42:58 PM »
Well, let's not argue over it any further at least. It's not the topic...

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Re: Forums - DMs, CC & Devs Hostile Posting.
« Reply #49 on: March 02, 2011, 06:15:42 PM »
Interesting thread.

People do overreact to changes on this server and its usually the same ones condemning every change. It is natural that this would become a point of frustration for the staff. It is also natural to not like change.

In turn the staff do not take criticism well (ironically the reason they gave me to exclude me from MPC's) and will over time hold it against a player. They also don't usually give much, if any , warning about significant system changes. It can be disappointing when your build concept is flushed down the toilet after investing a year in it (like some felt when listen items became common making stealth useless).

If one wants a happy POTM existence it is best to keep your mouth shut. It is amazing how quickly being critical can morph your persona into someone you aren't even similar to (apparently I'm a meta gaming, tag teamer who cannot be trusted despite never breaking a rule or ever having a complaint that the ruling found me at fault).

The Dev team isn't perfect but they try very hard and are more responsive to cold clinical data than to emotional responses. If a system totally ruins your time here express the facts and why you do not like it without going into a personal argument that steps outside of the topic (POTM ruined forever blah blah) .

Lastly, people have long been rude and unkind on these forums, but I have always attributed that to their strong attachment to the server (myself included). When people get emotional and possessive about things then they tend to forget their manners. Also keep in mind you do not know what is going on in their lives and if their reactions are not perhaps stimulated by real life events (heretic for example is always less kind when he has been rejected by a woman, which is why he is always so grumpy :P ).

Don't make my mistake, do not be critical to the point of hurting feelings, you will find you can easily upset people with long lasting consequences. It simply isn't worth it over a game.

~Taty~



This ^

P.S.  We miss you Taty and hope your RL is going well!


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