Increase the Magic Level....?

[Threefold]

It's going to be controversial to suggest such, but would it be considered?

The disparity between a Cleric and a Fighter would be significantly lessened if the Fighter could get +3 Fullplate, Sword and Tower Shield, with the slight possibility of +4 ones at level 20. We could expect to see small disadvantages on +3 weapons (-2 to a save or skill) and significant ones on +4 ones (-2 Con, significantly reduced saves), but overall it would be a buff to magic item values.

This would then allow the entire servers power level to be bought up to the point where it challenged Clerics nearly as much as everyone else (which, in all honesty, we know isn't really the case right now).

It's a true irony in every NWN server I've seen, that the ones claiming to be 'Low Magic', end up having a disproportionate amount of Clerics and casters taking advantage of their being overpowered in such worlds. Ravenloft was never meant to have terrible items, they were supposed to be rarer than usual and not purchasable openly. Enforcing this ICly (Making an IC announcement that Vallaki no longer wants witch-stores on it's doorstep and having a DM send a batallion of guards to confiscate anything magic from the outskirts shops) would mean such items had to be hunted down and procured in the shadows, which would make for more RP and enforce the low-magic feel.

At the moment, we have:

A higher than normal amount of mages and clerics due to the imbalance.
Stalls flogging all kinds of magic weapons openly, something you'd expect in a high-magic setting
Terrible magic items everywhere.

What I'm suggesting is:

More fighters and more mundane classes due to restored balance
Good magic items, hard to find and not publicly traded. ( Allowing the Vardo to do more shady dealings than be Vallaki eBay ) ( Side bonus is that dedicated RP helps with getting items, rather than just stacks of grinded cash )
Overall less visible magic, helping the feel of the setting whilst increasing the power of magic items.


This would, hopefully, solve the dilemma of the Low-Magic Irony, and aid non-magic classes, whilst improving the feel of the setting to where all magic is hidden.

Thoughts?

[Telkar]

My first thoughts are...players farm the loot tables. Maybe you don't, but there'll always be farmers to make the stuff in the loot tables become more commonplace.

Thus, I don't think they should be in the loot tables.

However, I'm of the opinion that DMs can be more generous in giving special magic items after or in events 'if' they're well earned with cool RP and such. Also when a DM is overseeing a dungeon run and participates in making things more challenging and immersive and then let them find something special to reward them for both RP and for overcoming the challenge.

The DMs could easily set some rules amongst themselves in what they reward and what is an appropriate reward. They could set similar guidelines as you suggested, lvl 1-7(+1), lvl 8-12(+2), lvl 13 - 17 (+3), lvl 18-20(+4) or the like.

..but then again, arguments may follow regarding DMs' favoritism and such, which might make such not worth it. But I can't see myself arguing over it.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

One word: Enchanting.

Systems are ready for testing, we just need the areas in. At least, I would urge any in depth evaluation to wait until after we've experimented with that.

Alternatively, magical varnishes allows you to accomplish much the same as cleric and mage spells in terms of weapon and armour enhancement.

[Jay]

..but then again, arguments may follow regarding DMs' favoritism and such, which might make such not worth it. But I can't see myself arguing over it.

That is pretty much why they don't do it any more, I've heard plenty of OOC horror stories of DM favourates getting all sorts of exclusive gear. And while i do thin that Good RP and dedication to a character should be rewarded, it's easy for someone to point fingers and scream "Favouritism!" so it saves on the headaches if GM drops only happen once in a blue moon, and then only if a very clear understanding OOC is reached between the DM and the player, on how the item is to be used.
 I've only been on the server a Year but i am sure if Grevis stays alive long enough he'll probably end up with something very nice from his (mis)adventures. But i am not going out my way to try and find one. The server -is- weighted to favour casters, and the server population reflects this. But the important thing to remember that Barovia -hates- casters, so the RP penalty for being one is enforced to try and balance this out. Sadly, it's not seen that often because it ruffles a lot of OOC feathers when NPC's or PC's attack verbally or otherwise casters who openly practice magic. Like i said, sometimes it just isn't worth the headaches.

For what it's worth i don't think +3 weapons should be included (outside of legendary circumstances) mostly because I recognise that the server will never be Fair, and trying to balance it will just lead to a creeping power-gain that will eventually mean all classes can do everything.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

To make it perfectly clear.

We've always had a policy of not handing out DM items any more powerful than what can be found in the loot (e.g. following same standards). If it has happened anyway, we've reacted on it, sometimes very firmly - more than once have a DM been disbanded because of it.

[Springer]

Perhaps magic varnishes ( and only them) should stay longer on the weapons and armor? Considering that +1 weapons are available and most of the people never saw +3 or +5 varnishes I doubt that will affect balance too much.

[Sewerprince]

One thing that I've always dreamed of, and tried to put together but....

Spoiler: show

WITCH-HUNTS

 

[dutchy]

i agree this place is nothing near low magic, we got tons of mages  only with items we are low magic and thats not reflected as there is a huge playerbase that loots and sells.

so i agree and disagree  cant make up my mind atm.

[Anarcoplayba]

One word: Enchanting.

Systems are ready for testing, we just need the areas in. At least, I would urge any in depth evaluation to wait until after we've experimented with that.

Alternatively, magical varnishes allows you to accomplish much the same as cleric and mage spells in terms of weapon and armour enhancement.

That's great!

(Besides, the varnishes probably solve the question by now...)

[The Prophet of Misinformation]

Although the disparity between the character archetypes is a touch bit evident, the server's atmosphere and scripts do render it abnormally difficult in many circumstances for the former to preform as it is intended. I do feel that the majority of these discussions originate or, in the least, are significantly influenced by the capacity of one class to "solo" over the other and so forth. It is a design flaw in the engine which permits this to transpire but one that really cannot be undone unless the magnitude of all encounters absolutely requires the presence of multiple individuals. It is a question of static power versus potential power.

Which do you prefer?

[Shadowthrone]

For my part, I hardly ever solo so I don't really care. Non-magical classes will always be required for a balanced party, though admitedly considering how rare it is for any spawn to be high (and therefore both challenging and rewarding), balanced parties are not often necessary.

[Vespertilio]

However, I'm of the opinion that DMs can be more generous in giving special magic items after or in events 'if' they're well earned with cool RP and such. Also when a DM is overseeing a dungeon run and participates in making things more challenging and immersive and then let them find something special to reward them for both RP and for overcoming the challenge.

Favoritism exists, and always has, but a system like enchanting will allow any player the same theoretical access to rewards.  There are players who rarely see DMs due to time zone or other factors but a system in place similar to crafting would allow far more opportunities for a character, either through actively doing enchanting or finding a character who is skilled in it.  It also encourages more pc based trade dynamics.

I'm all for alternatives to reliance upon DMs for rewards.  The script which allows any player to gain role play xp being a prime example of how such things can be far superior to a DM noticing a few players and rewarding them.

[WildPirate13]

One word: Enchanting.

Great way to enhance rp and even corrupt.. an item

I have seen enchanted items by Haustfer for Rali Stern.

I would love to see it!

Ingredients.. rp of emotions.. hell even a process that is a bugger..

You must bath the metal in the pools of tser for 5 nights.
You must pray to the god of uber items for 5 nights after the full moon.
The tears of a virgin obtained during a state of happiness or sadness.
The blood of haustfer!

Spellcraft check! Lore check! etc etc.

Opps. during that process my ledger sheet shows you had 5 dark powers checks during this process and you have created a cursed item!
Enjoy!

[arrmuth]

i agree this place is nothing near low magic, we got tons of mages  only with items we are low magic and thats not reflected as there is a huge playerbase that loots and sells.

so i agree and disagree  cant make up my mind atm.

Well keep in mind its a low magic setting due to the attitudes of the inhabitants. Magic is there your just not going to see floating castles,unicorns,mage advisors and such. 

[Threefold]

i agree this place is nothing near low magic, we got tons of mages  only with items we are low magic and thats not reflected as there is a huge playerbase that loots and sells.

so i agree and disagree  cant make up my mind atm.

Well keep in mind its a low magic setting due to the attitudes of the inhabitants. Magic is there your just not going to see floating castles,unicorns,mage advisors and such. 

A staple of a high-magic world would be open free shops of magic lying about. We have this.

Another staple would be 50%+ of people you see having significant spellcasting ability. We have this.

Adding powerful magic items and significantly pushing the angle of the guards confiscating open magic sales would counter this, since more powerful magic items = more powerful mundane classes = more of them about.

But I'm going to hold back on further thinking based on Soren's mention of Enchanting. Sounds good!

[The Prophet of Misinformation]

Non-magical classes will always be required for a balanced party, though admitedly considering how rare it is for any spawn to be high (and therefore both challenging and rewarding), balanced parties are not often necessary.

Har'Akir murdered my father, raped my mother, and brought ruin upon my noble house. Balance is everything. There is always the possibility that these trends cease to exist at apex levels but I have yet to be given the chance to ascertain such.

You must bath the metal in the pools of tser for 5 nights.
You must pray to the god of uber items for 5 nights after the full moon.
The tears of a virgin obtained during a state of happiness or sadness.
The blood of haustfer!

THENNE WAS FORGED THE SWERD EXCALIBUR.

[Bluebomber4evr]

i agree this place is nothing near low magic, we got tons of mages  only with items we are low magic and thats not reflected as there is a huge playerbase that loots and sells.

so i agree and disagree  cant make up my mind atm.

Well keep in mind its a low magic setting due to the attitudes of the inhabitants. Magic is there your just not going to see floating castles,unicorns,mage advisors and such. 

A staple of a high-magic world would be open free shops of magic lying about. We have this.

Another staple would be 50%+ of people you see having significant spellcasting ability. We have this.

You're basing this on the PC population, which is never factored into whether a world is high- or low-magic.

[Telkar]

I'm so excited about the enchanting system. I'd really like some teaser about what you guys have in mind for it and what possibilities you're looking at at the moment, if you care to share some. 

[Threefold]

In PnP, I totally agree without a shadow of doubt, but in a persistent world where we have around 35 players on at one time, probably at least three times that in active players, and with most players having more than one active character, the PC population reaches into hundreds, and therefore does become a significant portion of the world. Even if only 25% of all those 300+ active character are magically able, that's still 60+ casters. Forgotten Realms tends to have less than that in a city.

The PC's are everything from adventurers to guards to leatherworkers to preachers to beggars. They (we) ARE part of the world, and that isn't really a bad thing for a PW to have achieved. But it does mean we need to be factored into what the setting is.

And I know for a fact several NPC Barovians are magicians of some kind, judging by one who will remain unnamed summoning a Dire Wolf when a wererat chased me into a building!

Disclaimer: All the numbers here are made up, and hence are the third kind of lie.

Still, the point sort-of holds, even with less numbers. Daggerford, a city on the Sword Coast of comparable size to Vallaki, likely has about five able casters (Of level 10+, usually head priests, castle mages, and so on), and about ten or twenty less able ones acting under the higher level ones. Even if your party of PnP adventurers contains 3 casters, you're still not tipping the balance massively staying there. But if your PW of hundreds of adventurers was centered there, and there was suddenly 100 more Clerics/Wizards of varying levels, it would be like being dropped into Thay's annual mage-party.

Not suggesting anything outlandish like applications for casters, or massive restrictions, just encouragement for other classes based on the fact that a good chunk of folks, admit it or not (and myself somewhat included) like to have powerful characters. I bet if the tables were turned and Fighters were soloing dungeons Clerics couldn't do until five levels after them, the CC would be swamped with applications for Weaponmaster.

Veering off my own topic now. Bleh.

[Emomina]

Another staple would be 50%+ of people you see having significant spellcasting ability. We have this.

The ratio of what player character classes exist in what numbers is actually neither different in a low magic setting or an indicator of  of a settings magic level.

The things being sold in stalls is true, but its the nature of a persistent world more than a intentional setup. Its to allow a playerbased economy.

[Anarcoplayba]

Well... As a Feedback:

Since the varnishes applied to weapons and armors came to help non casters, it could be easier to meet the +3 Magic Potions since clerics gain access to +3 enchantment sooner.

[HellsPanda]

its not very hard to get the strong varnishes, if the spawns are there, and people will sell. But from my experience people dont wait for spawns to build up to a level where they are more common

[Geiger]

People should just play clerics, bards, wizards, druids, etc, how they should be. Buffers. That way when you're friends with them you survive. I will not name what, but friends and I have cleared spawns of CR 13 things with level 7s. Group dynamic is key.

But I think what would make people more likely to buff and play real characters with RP and religion behind their super powers would be to grandfather all current spellcasters and require applications for them due to their 'received nature' in this setting. And this especially is for characters that are religious like Clerics, Druids, Rangers, and Paladins, and even in some cases sorcerers or wizards - they get their power from a God yet noone really seems to be all about their religion except a few people.. you mostly see people casting haste and then improved invisibility. /rant


Anywho - play with people who know how to buff you, and not themselves. Those people are idiots.

[Emomina]

Making changes to make each class have access to the same things, so that each class has a solution to most problems is not a goal in DnD, Its more along what they do in games like WoW.
The classes don't have the same skills and they will need each other.  A cleric may be able to take some feats and cross class to open the locks, and he may be able to jump on the trap and then heal himself but he can never do the damage a rogue can, even with his amazing 5 minutes of self buffed glory.

We hardly have parity at all. The reason people play casters is because they don't want to have to be reliant upon group based dungeoning and don't want to be item and crafting dependent.

There is no inherent weakness for a non caster that is enough to make a player that wants to play one to not do so.

[dutchy]

how gladly i would like to enforce the magic weapon thing, with the guards confescating and destroying the (visable) magic weapons with that i mean the ones with flames and what not  barovians SHOULD be scared of it and piss their pants even comming near it , alas i dont rp my barovian that way anymore as its just not dooable.

doesnt mean i would love to be more in your faces beside hoodchecks