Negative will saves and the effect of fear.

[Metal_ash]

I can start by saying i have never ever been a fan of how the effect of fear works in NWN so this is one of the reasons i bring this topic up.

This most concerns none casters classes except rogues as they can use firepipes and scrolls ( if they have the luck to find them or money to buy them that is ), yes i know there is dream-catchers and potions of clarity around but to use them and also gather them is not always easy.

I have always thought the effect of fear to be a bit harsh as it totally makes you lose controll of you character and that he becomes totally suicidal and runs in random directions.
I have been thinking of this and maybe it can be overlooked if there is any other options for it. A major negative effect on AB maybe or making it impossible to attack or cast spells or anything really when effected of fear but you at least keep the controll of your character and can make an option to what way he runs?

Consider many places also have a negative effect on will saves it is really really hard to play a group of none casters ( and i do hope we not HAVE to bring casters with us at all times ) as many places do have some kind of fear causing creature in them or other mind effecting creatures. Yes we can use them items around to boost our will and make us immune, but they not last long and sometimes is really hard to get your hands on. The bonus of barbarian rage against fear and also will is a nice addition though.
But to have like 10 will save on a pure fighter class is rather good, then you enter a certain area and is hit with -2 to -4 will save and then are to face an enemies with a fear aura of lets say 12 you rather soon will find your self fail a roll against that fear, and in certain areas and also depending on group of course it can mean certain death, specially if the most part of the group all the sudden is effected by fear and runs all over the map in panic.
Is the negative effect on will really something that is needed? Fear is dangerous enough allready with out suffer that to on your all ready low to medium will saves as fighter classes most often have.

We have so many good systems here at PoTM so maybe we can find a better system to handle fear to? If not it is fine as it have always worked this way but to come up with something better and more realistic would be goodie
Anyways, it is not to be negative but only my opinions upon this and thought i wanted to share them and hear what others thinks, DMs and players alike.
//Cheers

[Khornite]

I have been saying for a LONG time that fear saves need to be handled differently here. A few people have given me the response of "This is a horror setting"...No, I'm afraid that is not a justification for the ponderous amount of fear saves. The 'horror' that is supposed to be felt here is supposed to be derived from the RP and the atmosphere, not some numbers and an effect that makes your character run around like a chicken with it's head cut off. The negative saves only worsen this.

Once when traveling into the abandoned monastery south of Vallaki, my evil cleric (Who is supposed to not be so badly effective by the negatives to saves as bad as other alignments) went from an 11 will save to a 2? He spent the next HOUR running around running from three Visages and I eventually just logged off during the fight. the problem here also is that some of the fear effects are auras, this becomes a problem because you have to make an additional save every time you get close enough. So while running around like a moron, you have to keep making these saves. This has forced me to just log off during fights from the ridiculous amount of time I would spend feared. How many times can someone run in fear from the same monster? Also, there seem to be times where the fear auras go through the Clarities form potions and dream-catchers, ever Mind Blanks a few times. What's up with that? A level 12 fighter back by a mage and a giant Worg shouldn't run away from an overgrown glowing bat.

Why not just focus on the actual descriptions and what really cause horror, like DMing smaller events, not just full blown plots and more possessing of bosses in dungeons. Very effective and don't require a lot of time.

[HellsPanda]

the thing with the glowing bone bats, is they aren't evil. So PfE that is what most rely on to safeguard from it, doesn't have much effect. Why mind blank doesn't work, I have no idea, are you sure it was mind blank and not PfE?

[Telkar]

A change to fear would be nice. Then we could change PfA too, since fear effect is a major obstacle in that.

[Metal_ash]

the thing with the glowing bone bats, is they aren't evil. So PfE that is what most rely on to safeguard from it, doesn't have much effect. Why mind blank doesn't work, I have no idea, are you sure it was mind blank and not PfE?

Yeah...a bit of the topic here but i do HAVE to share this one as i did learn that the bone bats are neutral the hard way.
This was back when Fabius was around maybe level 10 or 11 and was with two others in about the same levels as he was, one fighter and one rogue. We was to hit the Elkith tower and was well prepared though Fabius blessings ( PfE one of them of course ). We entered the tower and was met on the first floor by greater broken ones and behold...a bone bat! We all failed our saves against the fear of the bone bat and Fabius ended up caught in a jail cell there and was hacked to death by the greater broken ones, same happend to our poor rogue that ran straight in to the corridor with greater broken ones...the fighter actually manage to get out but died outside to the cold I still have a screenshot somewhere on this as i could not help to find it rather funny that we all actually died because of that single bone bat.

If we do use this as one example how nasty one single fear aura can be... If it now had worked so that i could controll my character still i sure would not have run in to a jail cell and stand there banging my head towards the wall while the greater broken ones killed me but i would if i could have run towards the exit door of the tower to try get away from the nasty bone bat.

[Metal_ash]

Thought i should add this link to this topic.

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=11766.0

[The Prophet of Misinformation]

A level 12 fighter back by a mage and a giant Worg shouldn't run away from an overgrown glowing bat.

Those skeletal bats will get you. Get you good.

Provided that said creatures are animated by negative energies, it follows that their "fear" aura is supernatural in natural. Consequently, it becomes a matter of succumbing to an abrupt traumatic episode as opposed to having one's morale falter. It is "magic!"

the thing with the glowing bone bats, is they aren't evil. So PfE that is what most rely on to safeguard from it, doesn't have much effect. Why mind blank doesn't work, I have no idea, are you sure it was mind blank and not PfE?

Oddly enough, mind blank's rendering in the game engine (which I am too complacent to examine) appears to ignore radial effects, such as auras and emanations.

[Strigoi]

i think its important that players separate "magical Fear" from emotional fear. they are two different things all together. i seen these post before and usually this gets overlooked.

i play both characters who are subject to fear (spell), and a character that can cast it. i honestly like Fear, and the risk of losing control of the character. the direction you run is random, sometimes to your benefit, sometimes not, but isnt that the point of taking the risk without being prepared against fear (spell)?

if this was considered for change there are other things that would need to be changed as well, like the Confuse spell, or the Turn undead ability (as it is also a form of fear or loss of control). but i think its more work than its worth really.

considering its "magical", i dont see anything wrong with the spell really.


 

[Metal_ash]

Biggest problem is that you get hit be fear over and over again if it is an aura, specially if multiple enemies with such auras and you never ever gets a chance to recover from it.

[The Prophet of Misinformation]

Bleh.

considering its "magical", i dont see anything wrong with the spell really.

Despite the vast "nerfing" which spellcasters have suffered, I imagine some players still envision a discrepancy between otherwise incomparable mechanisms of "power." Indeed. Unprepared brutes will dedicate quite a bit of their adventuring to aimlessly scattering into corners as pitifully low HD minions harass them. If something must be done, "correct" the function of the ceaseless periphery of magics which grant immunity to mind-affecting. Why not annull the dump schools?

Biggest problem is that you get hit be fear over and over again if it is an aura, specially if multiple enemies with such auras and you never ever gets a chance to recover from it.

Utilise ranged implements and if this fails, I advise getting a good book.

[Metal_ash]

i have no idea what can be scripted or not but this is just a few ideas on this that i have...

-First would be to consider the massive negative effect on will saves in certain areas to be slightly more friendly  

-second Maybe to let you still keep the controll over you character when effected by fear...and whit that i only mean with his movement.

-Third could be to maybe grant the character effected by fear a good boost to will saves ( VS Fear that is ) for a bit of time so he not have to be effected by the same fear aura over and over again.

-Forth maybe it somehow can be scripted so if you have lets say five more HP dice then the creature with fear you will not even be effected by it, or maybe double HP dice to not be effected at all and a few more HP dice gives you a boost on your fear save.

Only my suggestions this far and thoughts on it.

From my point of view and from what i have heard most players that is not happy how fear works is because of the loop hole you gets dragged in to when you be forced to take fear checks over and over again by the same fear aura as that have left some characters actually running around for over 10 IRL minutes as the creatures that caused the fear could not hurt him but they was many so he was effected by fear over and over again as he continue to enter their fear auras.

Again suggestions on how to make this better would be great to have here...if not most of us are happy in how it allready

can also add that it is not really the spell fear that is that bothersome even if i not a fan on how fear plays out in NWN it is the fear auras that is troublesome in my opinion because of reasons allready mentioned here.

//Cheers!

[Khornite]

-Forth maybe it somehow can be scripted so if you have lets say five more HP dice then the creature with fear you will not even be effected by it, or maybe double HP dice to not be effected at all and a few more HP dice gives you a boost on your fear save.

Why get a bonus if you're already immune?

I do think HD should have a play in it, but would have to see how it'd be scripted. Think it would be pretty taxing on the server.

[shadymerchant]

Fear, as a tool of roleplaying, sucks. I don't mean it's overpowered. It's just extremely limiting, to the point where people don't want to RP it, and it's more of a frustrating system that yanks you out of the scene. You no longer have control so you may as well take your hands off the keyboard, sit back, and roll your eyes as your character acts retarded for an extended period of time and then dies.

I actually like how it works on my mummy and its tie-in to a radius via the fear aura. Things that cross into it are sent running, but they immediately recover once outside. It's enough to tell a player "this is the direction you should take" without forcing their hand. Once its worn off, they can turn around and take regard of the situation and start roleplaying.

The floaty skull things also look absurd. It's all around the ugliest spell in the game in my opinion.

[harlock]

I find setting fine as they are now. It's a choice you make on character creation, make a fighter with 20 str and 8 wis, and you have problem with you will saves, wear the -4 vs mind effecting abilities cloak and you will never success a will roll. On the other hand PFE cancels fear auras and spells, there are rings +1 will, necklace +1 universal, cloak +1 will, helm +1 vs fear, falcovnian bracers +2 will, robe +1 universal ,only for wizards and sorcerers but rogues and bards can wear it with use magic devise. Four feats that can be taken only in 1st lvl will improve your saving throws as well and three more available at any time. Nurfing dc of saving throws will make server even easier than it is.

[Metal_ash]

I find setting fine as they are now. It's a choice you make on character creation, make a fighter with 20 str and 8 wis, and you have problem with you will saves, wear the -4 vs mind effecting abilities cloak and you will never success a will roll. On the other hand PFE cancels fear auras and spells, there are rings +1 will, necklace +1 universal, cloak +1 will, helm +1 vs fear, falcovnian bracers +2 will, robe +1 universal ,only for wizards and sorcerers but rogues and bards can wear it with use magic devise. Four feats that can be taken only in 1st lvl will improve your saving throws as well and three more available at any time. Nurfing dc of saving throws will make server even easier than it is.

Even easier than it allready is? You must play a cleric, wizard or sorceress to make a comment like that... and i not say that in anyway to be rude or unpolite but for me that comment makes no sense at all.

And about character creation, yes you can make a few choices and you can even if you play a fighter focus to try get okay saves in will...but even if you do you will never ever be truly good in it, whatever items or feats you pick. The add the fact that many places on this server in rather many areas give you a negative effect on will..so much as up to 10 i think is the most i have seen. What is the problem here and i say this again is the fear auras as IF you fail a will save against them you can be hit by the same fear aura over and over again and that is the biggest problem as i see it.

Futher i see no point in keeping this thread open any more, so DMs please close this thread. Thanks.
//Cheers

[harlock]

 i) I guess having control of your character when in fear effect is acceptable but then again i won't accept if i see anyone going back to the creture after effect runs out thinking i rolled one on will save, you once got afraid you went back and got afraid again. How many times do you need this to happen that you can't do anything against that thing or you need to change the strategy, almost the same as pvp in other words. I hate to see the same people trying to kill vampires over and over again after getting their @ss kicked, there is a time you need to understand that is stronger than you or you need another way to do it.

  ii)People tend to think, "i have greatsword and improve critical (greatsword) and daggers to make it keen so with 15+ i critical, 50 ac, 20/- damage reduction, so i can kill everything in a round". No you don't, you'll roll five on will against triloch, you'll kill your party and then you'll die after killing the triloch.

 iii)So preparations before dungeoning is important matter and a nice source of rp, also brings different classes together,
-"why do i need a wizard since i can make my weapon +5 with varnishes?"
-"cause he has a nice spell called deathward and you wont die by the triloch i said above"
or you can simply buy the potion etc
 

-off topic
I think most people are getting my point and still i find settings easy, when i'll see zobies taking less damage from bludgeonic weapons, undead in desecrated areas having +2 on rolls and much more HP, every round rolling fortitude vs daze in sewers, outcast rating increased with every visually noticeable buff, natives truly hate outlanders and don't want to even breath the same air with them and all people getting in their characters position to think what a normal man would do if he somehow returned to life after dying, or how they would react if they see a werewolf i'll accept that the settings are normal.

[Threefold]

Server is neither easy nor hard. It is as challenging as you make it.

A party of five level 8-ishes I was with last night tackled the Alhoon lair at a low spawn, and struggled through it, chipping away at Clay Golems whilst getting a third of our HP punched out of us every time it hit, slamming at Doom Knights, chugging endure elements potions to take the bite off being blasted by Fire Minions... Etc. That was hard, I can tell you, and many times we reached near death and had a few fall face-first, to be raised up. We used a lot of consumables, went through slowly and with strategy and tactics.

The reward in loot wasn't great, I don't think, but the XP was fantastic, and the challenge was a real satisfaction to have overcome.

We could have, instead, popped to the morninglord temple and rolled through it without a care in the world, even on high spawn, and probably got better loot. Meh.

[The Prophet of Misinformation]

Even easier than it allready is? You must play a cleric, wizard or sorceress to make a comment like that... and i not say that in anyway to be rude or unpolite but for me that comment makes no sense at all.

I certainly enjoy having inferior Fortitude and Reflex saves.

I certainly enjoy being incapable of facing CR 6 Werewolves in melee whilst being unbuffed.

I certainly enjoy having an unmodified AC of 12.

All mechanical choices have consequence.