Rollplaying XP.

[jugnaut]

-Roleplay is its own reward as per the designers server philosophy - anyone not agreeing or accepting this server culture, will have a hard time fitting in and finding fulfillment out of a gaming session.
-Dungeoning & roleplay are not mutually exclusive - we see roleplay while dungeoning all the time, they are part of the role characters play in the world - the design of dungeons is made to promote and encourage this.
-The values of XP gain have been adjusted over time, these changes have also been made by listening to player feedback, this is what player community councillors do at times, to report player feedback on things like this - one of the ideas behind the gains is that someone that lounges in front of the Ladies Rest should not be progressing, honing skills, gaining combat experience as much as the dungeon crawler that trains and perfects his art. Of course, this varies depending the classes, one might argue that a wizard could only gain XP by talking & studying or counterspelling, but a decision and compromise must be made with systems or it would be an endless cycle of exceptions which would tire our limited scripters.

While I generally agree that all makes sense, I've just noticed that more and more players have been grinding more, myself included.  I don't even want to do it, but it seems the way all the systems are interacting that you become more inclined to grind.  I remember a time when folks would rp in the outskirts and it would be amazing.  You could level up through just talking and as a result people would interact with each other more rather than just solo dungeons for xp and loot.  I think that rp xp should be raised to be in balance with dungeoning xp. 

[EO]

Uhm, guys.

We're one of the few roleplay servers that actually gives out roleplay experience on an automatic basis. Of course, it should never be as much as adventuring since you don't actually take real risks when talking. If it was as good as adventuring, people would just sit there and talk their way to level 20.

We give XP, so you still progress by talking / roleplaying, but you'll never progress as fast. Anyway, if you never dungeon, what's the point in leveling up?

[Threefold]

Uhm, guys.

We're one of the few roleplay servers that actually gives out roleplay experience on an automatic basis. Of course, it should never be as much as adventuring since you don't actually take real risks when talking. If it was as good as adventuring, people would just sit there and talk their way to level 20.

We give XP, so you still progress by talking / roleplaying, but you'll never progress as fast. Anyway, if you never dungeon, what's the point in leveling up?

....You raise an exceptionally valid point.

[GunzNrosZ]

I think the entire situation and why Lofwyr fetti is dead is due to roleplay.

Fyi: She is dead and in Castle Ravenloft.

[The Prophet of Misinformation]

While I generally agree that all makes sense, I've just noticed that more and more players have been grinding more, myself included.  I don't even want to do it, but it seems the way all the systems are interacting that you become more inclined to grind.

The reciprocal has applied to myself. I find grinding to be a chore most of the time - 'Everyone' is up in arms about the "level race." If possible, I try to spend the majority of my time roleplaying and precipitating unconscionable acts of genocide concurrently.

Somewhere down the line, people began to neglect the "Dungeons" and the "Dragons" aspect of the game. Gallivanting about and murdering all kinds of nasty things is at the core of the system. Some people want Sim-Ravenloft. Go figure.

I needed an ambiguous reason a slip this in.

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_ekugPKqFw[/youtube]

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

In my personal, humble opinion, I don't feel roleplay you do mainly to attain some non-roleplay reward is going to be that great roleplay anyway. There's no point in buying people into roleplaying on that account. The focus should remain on the roleplay itself - the main reward should be the roleplay itself. It's one of our oldest principles.

[Threefold]

Ambiguous and excellent.

So what's our conclusion?

Do what you find fun, so long as it dosen't bugger with other peoples'?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Ambiguous and excellent.

So what's our conclusion?

Do what you find fun, so long as it dosen't bugger with other peoples'?

Exactly, it is our number one rule after all:

1. “Play how you like as long as you don’t impair the roleplay experience of others.”

[Thoraion]

-Roleplay is its own reward as per the designers server philosophy - anyone not agreeing or accepting this server culture, will have a hard time fitting in and finding fulfillment out of a gaming session.

Last time i checked roleplaying still gavve XPs, so that philosophy is softened down to a degree that makes it hard to use as an argument.
So now we have a situation where roleplaying is a source of XPs - as in any PnP round that is not only about hack&slay.
This is a good example for your (the devs and dms) most basic problem - there is a massive difference between your perception and expectations and reality - in the implemented systems (that sometimes and especially in combination with one another even work against your ideas) as well as player attitudes.
The latter you may turn away with "if you don't like it, just leave". The former, however, is a real problem, because it completely undermines your statements.

-The values of XP gain have been adjusted over time, these changes have also been made by listening to player feedback, this is what player community councillors do at times, to report player feedback on things like this - one of the ideas behind the gains is that someone that lounges in front of the Ladies Rest should not be progressing, honing skills, gaining combat experience as much as the dungeon crawler that trains and perfects his art. Of course, this varies depending the classes, one might argue that a wizard could only gain XP by talking & studying or counterspelling, but a decision and compromise must be made with systems or it would be an endless cycle of exceptions which would tire our limited scripters.

Consider this thread to be what it is then... as feedback from a majority of the participating players indicating that roleplaying XP should be higher. At least... a majority at the moment.

We give XP, so you still progress by talking / roleplaying, but you'll never progress as fast. Anyway, if you never dungeon, what's the point in leveling up?

....You raise an exceptionally valid point.

Any roleplaying related situation that requires rolls based on skills or saves. Those are not the exception, but the norm. It may depend on individual players and DMs, but it happens often enough to justify that point. Very typical are the following:
hide
spot
listen
will saves
lore
influence
antagonize
concentration

Mind, none of those are combat related in the given situations are are examples of the reality in the game - not what you may believe what should be used and what not.

In my personal, humble opinion, I don't feel roleplay you do mainly to attain some non-roleplay reward is going to be that great roleplay anyway. There's no point in buying people into roleplaying on that account. The focus should remain on the roleplay itself - the main reward should be the roleplay itself. It's one of our oldest principles.

Well, people react to rewards, and even though you might not like it - a level-up delivers more endorphine as does a three hour roleplaying session. From time to time, this game just requires a level up (i really pity and adore the level 20s on the server!).
You may believe that roleplaying is its own reward - but as long as there are other carrots lying around, you should not be surprised if the mules turn to those instead. That's how people work, after all. Bluntly said... your ideals my be valiant and noble, but that does not mean that everybody/anybody shares them or cares for them. Now don't you dare to imply that i just said that i do not care for roleplaying... that's not the point. The point is the usual difference between whishfull thinking and harsh player reality.
I have organized LARPs for many years and learned that lesson the hard way... ouch.

If you want to manipulate players to play the way you want (that is nothing negative from my perception), you need to motivate them to do so. And THAT requires a little more thinking as takes place now. That does not imply that the dev team is a bunch of sheep... but from my perception you seem to put too much effort in isolated systems and not in the interdependencies of a complex system of 10 to 20 individual systems. Yes, i am aware that PotM is THAT complex.

[Illy-Dan]

1. “Play how you like as long as you don’t impair the roleplay experience of others.”

Not to war-monger, but if that is the case, then why are there so many custom mechanics in-place to encourage Player Behaviour in one direction or another?

Going to a dungeon dosen't mean you aren't RPing. For some people it's an intrinsic part of RP.

Then why do people suddenly assume that somebody talking about the merits/demerits of Dungeoneering are of the stance that RP & Dungeoneering are separate items?  That is like those Feminists who proclaim women who emulate men to be "serving the noble cause": you are mimicking, not countering.

...should become a more skilled, richer man faster than someone who sits in the pub flapping their chin.

Hey!  I resemble that comment!

[Bluebomber4evr]

What the hell are you talking about? It is entirely possible to roleplay while dungeoning (in fact, that's what everyone should be doing). "RP" isn't just about sitting around and talking. It's serving a role and staying in character, which is not mutually exclusive from adventuring. Stop complaining for complaining's sake already. DT may be a tad on the verbose side, but he's entirely correct. Roleplay because it's fun, not because you're looking for a handout.

do you see your role more as a moderator or do you rather like to escalate a discussion until it needs to be locked again? Because that's what you are provoking here - you might notice the significant difference in DTs and your posting there.

Maybe I lost my temper a bit, but after 5+ years, I'm getting tired of walking on eggshells around people who are constantly negative and/or approach the server with a sense of entitlement. It's not like we want people to kiss our asses, but for Pete's sake, quit acting like we've committed an atrocity every time we tinker with something. Nobody's making you play here. Of course we want people to have fun and we'll listen to a point if they're not, but we can't possibly please every single person and every single style of play. It's like people who still complain about the changes Lucas made to the Star Wars movies 14 years ago--not everyone likes them, but at the end of the day they're still his movies to tinker with, for better or worse. And unlike Lucas, we're at least willing to listen to reasonable arguments to fix things that don't work out like we thought they would (which is why the death system's gone through numerous revamps).

i fully understand Aahz point - and it is a valid one. It may not be what you envision, but it is how most players minds work.
Yes, to some degree you can dungeoneer and roleplay at the same time - but it is just not the point. In fact, from MY experience, a rather pure rp session is much different in depth and quality from a combat session and a hybrid. You may prefer the hybrid, but that does not mean that many others do so as well. Besides that, it is not always the own decision if a dungeon crawl is accompanied by a desirable degree of role play.

The separation that some players have between "roleplay" and "adventure/dungeoning" is wrong. It's a flawed perception, an artificial dichotomy that they themselves created. Just because "most players" think this way, that doesn't make them right.

[Thoraion]

Maybe I lost my temper a bit, but after 5+ years, I'm getting tired of walking on eggshells around people who are constantly negative and/or approach the server with a sense of entitlement.

i know what you mean - and i see two sides to that. I may not have full 5 years experience in THIS forum, but 15 years with the same problems, the way of discussions, innovative ideas, complaining, whining, bashing and trolling.

What i see here for 3 years here (whow... already that long?) is usually the same pattern on behalf of devs and dms active in the forum. Someone complains for some reasons, sometimes valid, sometimes not so valid, about anything - and the reaction is nearly always the same. Most dms start trolling until the topics need to get locked (i suspect they do it on purpose), they lock them themselves and devs usually react as if any kind of criticism that shows a good deal of frustration is a personal offense.

Well, for some postings i can understand that.

But something i see as well is a wide-spread "shields-up" attitude. You should understand a few things about players posting here - i can tell because my mailbox is quite full of PMs on that topic, but maybe i just attract a certain kind of players 

Many players post only when they tried something for some time and finally got so frustrated that it affects the language. "Shields up" does not help here, though. Don't take it personal and just try to understand what bugs a player to that degree. Judging from the answers to those postings (and not only in this thread), the opposite occurs (with a few exceptions).

No, you can't please anyone - but answer this question: Are you sure that you really consider the feedback of a (still not representative) majority or do you just feel comforted by the occassional player that shares your opinion on a certain topic and discard the rest?

And unlike Lucas, we're at least willing to listen to reasonable arguments to fix things that don't work out like we thought they would (which is why the death system's gone through numerous revamps).

There starts another problem... what is reasonable?
An inflamed posting on a topic that is indeed troublesome for somebody, maybe others as well?
Deescalation does not take place in such cases, so the problem does not get solved and the player who complains gets even more frustrated.
Calmly described problems that just do not comply with your ideas? Well, see my last posting on this.

The largest problem in this forum you have generated yourselves. Uncertainty.
Most systems are not documented anywhere so players need to guess - and that is always bad, as you surely have noticed.
This leads to another psychological problem. Take a deep breath before reading on and remember that no one is attacking you.
The lack of documentation does not generate trust and essentially players are convinced that you have lost the overview over the many systems and especially their interdependencies. Typical reactions of DMs on that topic support that thesis. That is accompanied with the feeling that the systems do not really do what you intend. See the statement about the philosophy that RP should be its own reward as an example.

It all leads to an impression of a lacking roadmap and overall chaos - but still a degree of chaos that still somehow works. 

Speaking in business babble... communicating the mission statement and checking your entire strategy and operational measures to achieve your goals at a regular intervals will increase stakeholder acceptance.

Oh damn... alone for that sentence i deserve to be crucified...

But you just must not forget that players usually do not work the way you imagine. I don't say that i understand all of them or even a majority... but enough to see that there is a problem.

And no thanks - i do not candidate for the next community council elections. My current postings are only that long because i am on holiday at the moment and my wife is not, so no time to work in the council regularly.

[EO]

Speaking in business babble... communicating the mission statement and checking your entire strategy and operational measures to achieve your goals at a regular intervals will increase stakeholder acceptance.

Wrong analogy. You're not stakeholders, you're users, perhaps "clients", though you don't pay. I'll settle for users. A company does not share its mission statement and values with users or clients. It does usually with shareholders, employees, management, etc.

That being said, our vision and our "mission statement" are actually already posted and repeated often. It's not our fault you ignore it. Here, let me post the links to be sure you've read it:

Roleplay Manifest - Our beliefs in terms of roleplay (very good for this topic):
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=18624.0

Server Features and Systems - Here we present our systems and technical stuff (it may need some updating I agree):
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=16042.0

POTM Forum Rules - Along with rules, there is a clear definition of what we expect from people on the forums and our philosophy:
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=96.0

POTM Server Rules - The first few sections state our mission, our vision and our goals:
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=2863.0

ATT: New PvP rules - Our vision of PvP and the reasoning behind our rules:
http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=16666.0

I think that, after you've read this all, you'll see our vision. All our systems are implemented to achieve that. We take the philosophy of guiding roleplay, not enforcing it. Of course, at times, some of our systems will clash and we'll look into this after evaluation and proper feedback. Yesterday, at our meeting, we discussed death penalties and how different death penalties had a bad effect when mixed together and came to an agreement on how to best solve it.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Last time i checked roleplaying still gavve XPs, so that philosophy is softened down to a degree that makes it hard to use as an argument.

Not at all, we just like to portray the, albeit smaller, still present progression that exist through most forms of roleplay.

So now we have a situation where roleplaying is a source of XPs - as in any PnP round that is not only about hack&slay.
This is a good example for your (the devs and dms) most basic problem - there is a massive difference between your perception and expectations and reality - in the implemented systems (that sometimes and especially in combination with one another even work against your ideas) as well as player attitudes.
The latter you may turn away with "if you don't like it, just leave". The former, however, is a real problem, because it completely undermines your statements.

I don't think we're the only ones needing a reality check here then. There's a vast majority not expressing anything remotely like the frustration and upset you've crusaded for lately. The player numbers are as fine as ever too. Don't be so sure you have a better perspective and perception of things.

That said, I truly wish we could return to an atmosphere of constructive feedback, because the reality of things is that the late resilience by certain loud individuals has ruined our best means of getting in touch with base. No one is ruling out that adjustments are to be made to fit things in, but the late discussions have mainly revolved claims of a fundamental misguidedness, if not hostility, from our side. That's not a very good way to open a discussion, is it?

That, and what Blue said. We can't please all, and then perhaps not those to whom roleplay being it's own reward is not sufficient. But that doesn't mean not having it is futile or naive. The roleplay XP progression has been at it's curernt level for years (even the golden years of roleplay that some still yearn back to) - and was only much higher for a period because of a restructuring of the system causing an upward jump in the reward, which we've now revoked.

1. “Play how you like as long as you don’t impair the roleplay experience of others.”

Not to war-monger, but if that is the case, then why are there so many custom mechanics in-place to encourage Player Behaviour in one direction or another?

Simply to reduce tendencies that impair the roleplay experience of others. That, and to define the terms of the game. It doesn't follow from the quoted rule that we should abolish all rules and mechanisms.

[Illy-Dan]

Simply to reduce tendencies that impair the roleplay experience of others. That, and to define the terms of the game. It doesn't follow from the quoted rule that we should abolish all rules and mechanisms.

Good enough for me.

Not going to comment on the rest of your post as I've already discussed the topic to death.

[Thoraion]

Not at all, we just like to portray the, albeit smaller, still present progression that exist through most forms of roleplay.

the only point i tried to make is that the system itself is a contradiction to the philosophy on the level of logic - though that specific question is purely academic in nature. It is just an example for many exceptions to oversimplified statements.

I don't think we're the only ones needing a reality check here then. There's a vast majority not expressing anything remotely like the frustration and upset you've crusaded for lately. The player numbers are as fine as ever too. Don't be so sure you have a better perspective and perception of things.

Regular reality checks help everyone - including myself. But what makes it so difficult to assume that i may indeed have a valid point? As far as PotM is concerned, i acknowledge that what i see myself and what i am told may not be representative for the whole server, but it is still based on comments from somewhere between 15 and 25 players (sometimes difficult to say with multiple nicknames). I believe this is an amount to be considered, while the silent majority does not tell anything at all - neither satisfaction nor dissatisfaction. But maybe you get even more comments on channels other than this forum on those topics - how can i know?

I am somewhat irritated that you label my latest postings as a crusade, but to some degree it seems to have caused more attention than previous postings (not initiated by me) on the same topic. Though, if it leads to an reassessment of the XP-related systems and even to changes seems more and more unlikely considering the ongoing shift in atmosphere.

That said, I truly wish we could return to an atmosphere of constructive feedback, because the reality of things is that the late resilience by certain loud individuals has ruined our best means of getting in touch with base.

  now that sentence really left me speechless for a few moments...
i think you know quite well what you have written there - it reads like pressing the big red button in a political correct way.

No one is ruling out that adjustments are to be made to fit things in, but the late discussions have mainly revolved claims of a fundamental misguidedness, if not hostility, from our side. That's not a very good way to open a discussion, is it?

I am not aware that this reaches back to the beginning of the thread... But i think there is something more important to this paragraph. It may be due to a insufficiency of my english, but i tried to keep to a specific kind of wording - maybe i utterly failed there. What i intended to deliver, however, was not that i pretend to know THE TRUTH (TM) about your attitude (as staff), but to give you feedback on how your attitude is perceived by a concerningly large group.
...This is slowly beginning to sound stupid with me always referring to that mysterious number of players...  so if you still read here: post your comments here and stop spamming my mailbox! Cowards...

The roleplay XP progression has been at it's curernt level for years (even the golden years of roleplay that some still yearn back to) - and was only much higher for a period because of a restructuring of the system causing an upward jump in the reward, which we've now revoked.

Oh back in the golden age... those were glorious times, when milk and honey still ran in the rivers...
Related to the XPs here... back then it was perceived as quite high (though some players just loved that), though now it seems to be lower than some (many?) would like it. You have your feedback on that. On a sidenote: you may be aware of the confusion resulting from the XP-messages...?

As for Eos posting...
1. interesting insight on your attitude towards players.
2. concerning the links... that supports my own statements, though i should have written "incomplete documentation" instead of "no documentation" - which leads to the same result, but is not per se as wrong as the first wording.
3. concerning the paragraph introducing the links... maybe it is just the way i READ it... well, besides pointing out the connotation explaining why the demonstrated attitude is contra-productive will makes this already too long posting still longer... and most likely should be written by someone else.

[Threefold]

Yesterday, at our meeting, we discussed death penalties and how different death penalties had a bad effect when mixed together and came to an agreement on how to best solve it.

Interested in what'll come of this.

The triple-whammy of Badly Impaired corpses, zombie-raise chance, and diamond requirements culiminated in the hardest res system I'd seen since permadeath without a one-step aligned Cleric with 10k spare that I played.

Sort of glad to see some of these are being changed.

[EO]

The triple-whammy of Badly Impaired corpses, zombie-raise chance, and diamond requirements culiminated in the hardest res system I'd seen since permadeath without a one-step aligned Cleric with 10k spare that I played.

Indeed, it's feedback I got from players as well and we're reevaluating it. At the moment, we've decided that if your raise fails and the person turns into a zombie, it will not cost anything for the initial raise. Also, we'll try to see if it's possible not to lose a "raise" if you don't have enough diamonds, though that might not be feasible.

We already toned down the chances of getting an impaired corpse a lot a week or two ago since it was also really hard. Essentially, this is a case where different systems sort of culminated into something bigger than it should be. We're reviewing it and going to look at the impact in the future.

[dutchy]

isnt it hard to rp while you dungeon? i mean i dont see a mage type his spell out while a whole flock is comming at him.

but in the easyer parts or the way there theres always rp but the dungeon itself no the fight itself the rp cant be done unless your a real good multitasker and a quick typer.

i think thats what people want but thats not the lack of server skills thats a lack of persenal skill   

[Vaku]

So I just did a tally of everyone and their opinions on Roleplay Xp that have posted in this thread. I know that there are some of us who have not spoken up, but you all will get a better idea of who is saying what.

                                                                 Those for an increase to RP xp: 8
                                                                 Metal Ash, Thoraion, jugnaut, Aduial, Aahz, kvanio, Darktide, and myself Vaku

                                                                 Those for the RP xp to remain the same: 10
                                                                 K_moustakas, DT_Lordofdeath, Illy-Dan, Threefold, HellsPanda, GladeRune, Zarathustra217, Bluebomber4evr, Heretic and EO

                                                                 Ambiguous Post or in the middle: 2
                                                                 GunzNrosz and Dutchy

     As you can see this is a relatively evenly split problem. What this means is that it cannot in good conscience be ignored by those who have the ability to change it. With our current playerbase eight is a rather large number and is representative for people other than ourselves. I am doing this primarily to clear the fog of war so that you all can see who supports you without blindly saying, “Everyone.” That is just a bad blanket statement.

     Secondly I am posting to display my opinion and reasoning on the situation, first with a short story. As some of you are aware, I play Camay MacCay who is the twin of Castra MacCay. Our characters are a pair of wicked, power hungry witches. We mentally do not treat them as the typical adventurers that go into dungeons, however to progress we have been forced to do such. We would prefer our characters grow in power without going out of character and running the same dungeon over and over, but like jugnaut said, “I've just noticed that more and more players have been grinding more, myself included.” There deserves to be a change in pace for the players where RP xp makes sense.  Thoraion made the point that there are a number of skills whose application makes plenty of sense to grow out of combat, as well there are a number of classes that should become enlightened without stepping a foot into a place that clearly says, “Dungeon!”

     A monk is one class where it makes sense. Depending on the player prerogative and character background, it would make sense for a monk to talk and spar with another player at the top of a mountain and gain personal enlightenment (a level.) Another that makes sense is the bard. She does a performance every so often. She may even work hard to perform every day to please the crowd. She deserves a level by the end of the week. It does not stop there. Point being, a level is not for combat purposes only, it is for in character progression as to becoming a type of leader in their field.

     Take for example the bard who grinds their level in a dungeon and the bard that makes a career to entertain. As the system is now, the bard who grinds will progress more quickly than the one who makes the effort to role play. This does not seem fair that the bard with an occupation that makes in character sense is being left in the dust.
For the two MacCay sorcerers, they are not the ones to go out into the world and rid it of evil. They are not the types to slaughter more evil creatures than good aligned creatures, however because of the system in place we are forced to mix OOC trends to achieve enlightenment that could all be done inside a swamp as you all know is how witches should become more powerful (level).

     All in all I think there is too big a split of opinion in this discussion to ignore it. And I realize that it becomes very tense when there is an even split in any opposition. There needs to be some sort of give and take, and those who need the give are those in favor for an increase in RP xp since they have the short straw and those in favor of how it remains have the longer straw.

[Emomina]

Roleplay alone will get you levels. Seriously I do not understand what the fuss is about.

I have gotten multiple characters to level 8-9 with nothing more than roleplaying and minks. Its not as FAST, but it does not have near the risk either, so how is it not enough XP?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

So I just did a tally of everyone and their opinions on Roleplay Xp that have posted in this thread. I know that there are some of us who have not spoken up, but you all will get a better idea of who is saying what.

                                                                 Those for an increase to RP xp: 8
                                                                 Metal Ash, Thoraion, jugnaut, Aduial, Aahz, kvanio, Darktide, and myself Vaku

                                                                 Those for the RP xp to remain the same: 10
                                                                 K_moustakas, DT_Lordofdeath, Illy-Dan, Threefold, HellsPanda, GladeRune, Zarathustra217, Bluebomber4evr, Heretic and EO

                                                                 Ambiguous Post or in the middle: 2
                                                                 GunzNrosz and Dutchy

     As you can see this is a relatively evenly split problem. What this means is that it cannot in good conscience be ignored by those who have the ability to change it. With our current playerbase eight is a rather large number and is representative for people other than ourselves. I am doing this primarily to clear the fog of war so that you all can see who supports you without blindly saying, “Everyone.” That is just a bad blanket statement.

I don't think Darktide stated what he was in favour of, making it 7 on the nay side. There are about 300 unique CD keys logging on each week, so I'd say the number of frequent players is at least half of that. Finding seven players for more or less any cause wouldn't be difficult.

     Secondly I am posting to display my opinion and reasoning on the situation, first with a short story. As some of you are aware, I play Camay MacCay who is the twin of Castra MacCay. Our characters are a pair of wicked, power hungry witches. We mentally do not treat them as the typical adventurers that go into dungeons, however to progress we have been forced to do such. We would prefer our characters grow in power without going out of character and running the same dungeon over and over, but like jugnaut said, “I've just noticed that more and more players have been grinding more, myself included.” There deserves to be a change in pace for the players where RP xp makes sense.  Thoraion made the point that there are a number of skills whose application makes plenty of sense to grow out of combat, as well there are a number of classes that should become enlightened without stepping a foot into a place that clearly says, “Dungeon!”

     A monk is one class where it makes sense. Depending on the player prerogative and character background, it would make sense for a monk to talk and spar with another player at the top of a mountain and gain personal enlightenment (a level.) Another that makes sense is the bard. She does a performance every so often. She may even work hard to perform every day to please the crowd. She deserves a level by the end of the week. It does not stop there. Point being, a level is not for combat purposes only, it is for in character progression as to becoming a type of leader in their field.

     Take for example the bard who grinds their level in a dungeon and the bard that makes a career to entertain. As the system is now, the bard who grinds will progress more quickly than the one who makes the effort to role play. This does not seem fair that the bard with an occupation that makes in character sense is being left in the dust.
For the two MacCay sorcerers, they are not the ones to go out into the world and rid it of evil. They are not the types to slaughter more evil creatures than good aligned creatures, however because of the system in place we are forced to mix OOC trends to achieve enlightenment that could all be done inside a swamp as you all know is how witches should become more powerful (level).

I generally agree, though even a bard in DnD is much more than someone who makes a career of entertaining, especially as the bard attains higher levels. As has been argued already, there is some progression in doing more mundane things, but since levels is in fact - like it or not - mostly about combat prowess. To me, it then makes perfectly good sense that experiencing combat is the best way to improve your skill.

Second, the XP RP reward system is primitive, and rewards all forms of roleplay. Even if some classes have some activities that constitute great ways of perfecting their skills, the system makes assessments on the average - and has to.

And finally, what you have to take into account too is the XP cap. The bard that grinds endlessly will not progress faster than the one having a sound proportion between roleplay and entering the fray.

[Vaku]

Roleplay alone will get you levels. Seriously I do not understand what the fuss is about.

I have gotten multiple characters to level 8-9 with nothing more than roleplaying and minks. Its not as FAST, but it does not have near the risk either, so how is it not enough XP?

Personally I would prefer xp gain for RP being equal to that dungeoning. If they were in the ballpark of each other, their systems would support the playstyles that we are seeing in this thread. They are Complete RP XP, Hybridized Dungeon XP and RP XP and then pure Dungeon Grind XP.

Here are some scenarios to demonstrate my response to your question.

Scenario 1: The monster hunter meets up with an MPC werewolf at a farm. They rp for one hour. Neither of them kill anything, obviously as they are tied in their encounter. They get X amount of XP

Scenario 2: The monster hunter goes down into a monster den. He ventures in raising hell for one hour. He gets X amount of xp. (Equal to the RP from scenario 1.)

Scenario 3: The monster hunter goes into a vampire crypt. He becomes haunted by an MPC vampire for an hour, RPing every step of the way. They do this for one hour. They get the combined xp of Scenario 1 and Scenario 2.

Experience is not about risk. Experience is the growth of oneself in his vocation. In the scenarios of the monster hunter, he both RP's a single encounter with a single MPC werewolf. By the logic of the ideal, "Rp is its own reward." it would make sense for the actual number of your experience on your character sheet to reflect that ideal. The monster hunter who Rp's would gain equal reward from the monster hunter who sets out to kill non interacting NPC's. The monster hunter who ties both challenges together of RP and killing NPC's would get experience reflecting both the slashing application of his vocation as well as the the xp reflecting his knowledge as a monster hunter and overall how he holds himself as a character.

Again, experience is about personal growth in one's vocation. The cleric who goes out an collects alms for his deity gains experience interacting with people for one whole hour. The cleric who goes into the crypts to suppress evil by killing NPC's gains experience equal to the cleric collecting alms as they are both progressing their experience in their vocation. The cleric that heals a fallen adventurer during an enemy onslaught, RPing the whole way gets the combined experience of both of the pure RP scenario and thep pure NPC killing scenario.

It is not really a matter of splitting the dungeoning from RP as I have seen. What the problem is, is that we do not equally recognize the value of ongoing good RP as experience worthy of moving forward in your chosen field. For some reason the experience on your character sheet reflects NPC killing as the best way to move your characters forward in their vocation (Their overall level.)

You say you have progressed your character in their levels from level 8 to level 9 on nothing but RP and mink, many of us have done something similar. But the problem remains, we all realize that this is the slowest way to move our characters forward and that is not okay. Experience from RP should be just as viable as experience from killing a mob detached from the ideal "Rp is its own reward."

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Not at all, we just like to portray the, albeit smaller, still present progression that exist through most forms of roleplay.

the only point i tried to make is that the system itself is a contradiction to the philosophy on the level of logic - though that specific question is purely academic in nature. It is just an example for many exceptions to oversimplified statements.

And what I gave you was an argument as to why it was not a contradiction of the philosophy on the level of logic. Formally, if you like:

- We like roleplay.

- We don't want to condemn people for playing in certain ways if it doesn't hurt anyone or negatively affect things.

- Roleplay should be done for it's own sake, and not because you are given an OOC reward for it. Thus, we don't want to hand out explicitly OOC oriented rewards.

- We give out RP XP to portray the gradual progression one is expected to have through roleplay. This is an IC consequence, not a reward.

Where's the logical contradiction?

Regular reality checks help everyone - including myself. But what makes it so difficult to assume that i may indeed have a valid point? As far as PotM is concerned, i acknowledge that what i see myself and what i am told may not be representative for the whole server, but it is still based on comments from somewhere between 15 and 25 players (sometimes difficult to say with multiple nicknames). I believe this is an amount to be considered, while the silent majority does not tell anything at all - neither satisfaction nor dissatisfaction. But maybe you get even more comments on channels other than this forum on those topics - how can i know?

We have the Council and I speak regularly with a large number of people from all sides of the community. That said, I'm not doubting there's a multitude sharing your point of view, as well as there's a multitude sharing the opposite point of view. The point here is though that it's a case of something that can only be an either/or. It's a fundamental decision on design policy. Staying true to our own ideals on that is the only way we can continue to dedicate ourselves to this place.

I am somewhat irritated that you label my latest postings as a crusade, but to some degree it seems to have caused more attention than previous postings (not initiated by me) on the same topic. Though, if it leads to an reassessment of the XP-related systems and even to changes seems more and more unlikely considering the ongoing shift in atmosphere.

Indeed, that's nothing new though, and shouldn't come as a surprise. It's very rare that changes are brought about through angry and derogatory posts. Is that hard to understand?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

By the logic of the ideal, "Rp is its own reward." it would make sense for the actual number of your experience on your character sheet to reflect that ideal.

I'm sorry, but I disagree with that logic. The point is that XP is something separate - an IC element - much like and shouldn't be something you have based on how much you roleplay, but IC mechanisms. Should everyone have the same amount of gold and items no matter what paths of roleplay they pursued? To me, that would only hinder the natural flow of the roleplay.

Again, experience is about personal growth in one's vocation. The cleric who goes out an collects alms for his deity gains experience interacting with people for one whole hour. The cleric who goes into the crypts to suppress evil by killing NPC's gains experience equal to the cleric collecting alms as they are both progressing their experience in their vocation. The cleric that heals a fallen adventurer during an enemy onslaught, RPing the whole way gets the combined experience of both of the pure RP scenario and thep pure NPC killing scenario.

I can see your point, but please refer to my prior post - it is an indiscriminate system. Further, while I may be wrong, I'm by the general impression that in DnD as a system, XP and level is mainly about combat prowess, and combat is generally how you best attain it. But as I stated in my prior post too, the XP soft cap eliminates most of the difference anyway - frequent roleplay or just a visit to a place of danger matching your level two or three times during a week will keep you well up to speed. Only those that frequently get rest messages telling them they have a strong desire to or long for adventure is at any risk of really falling behind.