Bandit Crypts, OSR

[Delete Me]

1)  The currently existing traps in the dungeon do 100 dmg for . .lol.. 4 fang and a slayers bracer. 
2) The DC's for lock are reasonable, but the STR bash DC's are 31-37.  Rather..impossible.


Moo? 

[Bato]

I'll also tack on that even with a buffed up search score via a INT spell and a detect trap up to around 25 search I really can't find these traps. End up staring at the chests until the spell goes down.

[Springer]

Only rogues may detect traps with a DC greater than 35.
Besides 25 search isnt that high. I suggest that if you travel there to bring a rogue with you. It is one of the few possibilities for rogue to shine on this server and to be usefull.

[Thoraion]

So... the chests and crates in the bandit crypts are doable now. But one level above (caves under svalich road), all seems to be like it was. Break DC of 30 on low spawn for chests and crates. I have also seen 37 there lately...

[Bluebomber4evr]

I'll see what I can do to tone them down a bit, if it's possible.

[Thoraion]

So... the chests and crates in the bandit crypts are doable now. But one level above (caves under svalich road), all seems to be like it was. Break DC of 30 on low spawn for chests and crates. I have also seen 37 there lately...

This problem still exists: Caves under svalich road (first level of the bandit crypt dungeon), first room right next to the dungeon entrance

[Thoraion]

So... the chests and crates in the bandit crypts are doable now. But one level above (caves under svalich road), all seems to be like it was. Break DC of 30 on low spawn for chests and crates. I have also seen 37 there lately...

This problem still exists: Caves under svalich road (first level of the bandit crypt dungeon), first room right next to the dungeon entrance

Bump.
Checked this week and the following chests have that problem:
- first level, chest in the room adjacent to the stairs to the surface - DC is way above 30 (37 last time)
- second level, the two chests that are not in the central room - the problem seems to be related to spawn? DC 30 with spiders

[Ercvadasz]

So... the chests and crates in the bandit crypts are doable now. But one level above (caves under svalich road), all seems to be like it was. Break DC of 30 on low spawn for chests and crates. I have also seen 37 there lately...

This problem still exists: Caves under svalich road (first level of the bandit crypt dungeon), first room right next to the dungeon entrance

Bump.
Checked this week and the following chests have that problem:
- first level, chest in the room adjacent to the stairs to the surface - DC is way above 30 (37 last time)
- second level, the two chests that are not in the central room - the problem seems to be related to spawn? DC 30 with spiders

yes the chest open lock DC-s are spawnrelated.
max DC is 42 afaik which is i would say okay considering the rewards place can get.
(And the first rooms DC i met it with 26 as well)

I would say the Sullen woods caves are far worse there the dc is ~38ish for a lore potion a tiny diamond and 4 gold.
Not to mention i met there high heacuvas with skeleton LORDS! LORDS!!!!

The four-five chest that are there usually hold alltogether 30 fangs 4 lore potions and 3 tiny diamonds. (And since they are hardly cleared, they build up very fast, to newbie lowbie killer spawns if it is not gremishka/bandit spawn.)

[Thoraion]

This is not about OPEN LOCK... this is about the DC to break the chests.

Well, one might say they should be the same. But one could also say that mechanism-wise breaking and open lock are different approaches. Let's say there is a chest you need a 20 to open.
Break: expect to stand there with your crowbar for several minutes
Open lock: take-20 opens it within seconds

So i have no trouble with accepting that the open lock DC may be significantly higher - especially since it can be buffed far easier and way more than breaking.

Against identical DCs speaks the intention to always bring a rogue along, but to be honest: it is sometimes hard enough to find one or two companions at all. Requiring one to be a rogue to have access to the loot is a bit queer.

Sidenote: THIS is a good argument to leave it be as it is, since now some chests can be opened without a rogue - and some not.

From my point of view, the whole dungeon is a lower mid-range. The chests in the central chamber have properties that reflect that quite well. Properties like:
- Break DC (after reduction last year)
- Trap damege (after reduction!)
Open lock DCs i will check with my rogue character.

But the three chests mentioned differ there - those are essentially unbreakable. A DC of 37 is simply out of the range for lower-/mid class characters - and i do not even know if high levels can do that. That requires:
+ Roll a 20
+ Str-Bonus (let's assume a high bonus from a melee specialist) +5
-> 25, not enough

so let's replace the str-bonus with the crowbar (+9)
-> 29, not enough

i just realized that the crowbar REPLACES the str-bonus, so even buffs do not help ...?

[Meriana]

This is not about OPEN LOCK... this is about the DC to break the chests.

Well, one might say they should be the same. But one could also say that mechanism-wise breaking and open lock are different approaches. Let's say there is a chest you need a 20 to open.
Break: expect to stand there with your crowbar for several minutes
Open lock: take-20 opens it within seconds

So i have no trouble with accepting that the open lock DC may be significantly higher - especially since it can be buffed far easier and way more than breaking.

Against identical DCs speaks the intention to always bring a rogue along, but to be honest: it is sometimes hard enough to find one or two companions at all. Requiring one to be a rogue to have access to the loot is a bit queer.

Sidenote: THIS is a good argument to leave it be as it is, since now some chests can be opened without a rogue - and some not.

From my point of view, the whole dungeon is a lower mid-range. The chests in the central chamber have properties that reflect that quite well. Properties like:
- Break DC (after reduction last year)
- Trap damege (after reduction!)
Open lock DCs i will check with my rogue character.

But the three chests mentioned differ there - those are essentially unbreakable. A DC of 37 is simply out of the range for lower-/mid class characters - and i do not even know if high levels can do that. That requires:
+ Roll a 20
+ Str-Bonus (let's assume a high bonus from a melee specialist) +5
-> 25, not enough

so let's replace the str-bonus with the crowbar (+9)
-> 29, not enough

i just realized that the crowbar REPLACES the str-bonus, so even buffs do not help ...?

You just need 40 str... XD

[HellsPanda]

Crowbar adds +5 to your str

[Thoraion]

Crowbar adds +5 to your str

ok, mistake then - that means with a high str bonus maybe a +10 can be achieved... bulls strength adds maybe another +2, but the gap is still enormous, changing little to my theory that breaking such chests is impossible

[HellsPanda]

Bulls give up to +3

[Ercvadasz]

Bulls give up to +3

or get a greater bulls/empowered bulls from your potion/caster.
and for forceing open +2 can be achieved from blood frenzy potions, which are craftable as well. (I used to buy them just for this matter!)

The best one you can have to help you with forceing open a chest is a druid, he or she alone can grant you with a lucky roll, +13 str alone.
(empowerd bulls +7 str, blood frenzy +2, aura of vitality +4)

And i think crowbar gives +6 not +5 no? so 37 is reachable:)

[APorg]

The problem is, this is DC 37 to break open a chest in a cave full of goblins. Goblins.

And the Lockpicking DC is low enough that my Wizard can achieve it without even needing Knock. (Low to mid 20s.)

Let's face it -- someone did a boo-boo and mixed up the Lockpick DC with the Breaking Open DC.

[HellsPanda]

Well depending on how your char is built, lets assume a Str warrior who starts with 15 str... high level say 16. Means your Str will probably be 19
Now if your a fighter your Breaking stats are likely to be, if we assume you have managed to find a crowbar by then 4+5=9 unbuffed.
Now lets add to that the fun buss Bulls Str adds between 2-5 Str, so for a 19 str it increases your str from +4 to be from +5[21str] up to +7[24 str], but lets say your actually supported by someone who casts empowered bulls str your str increase will be from 3-7 STR, so your Str bonuses will be +6[22str] up to +8[26str]
This means that with a crowbar your buffed breaking stat will be from +10-+13.

Add to these frenzy potions +4, barbarian rage +4 and AoV +4, your stats will be +14-+17

[LackofCertainty]

Well depending on how your char is built, lets assume a Str warrior who starts with 15 str... high level say 16. Means your Str will probably be 19
Now if your a fighter your Breaking stats are likely to be, if we assume you have managed to find a crowbar by then 4+5=9 unbuffed.
Now lets add to that the fun buss Bulls Str adds between 2-5 Str, so for a 19 str it increases your str from +4 to be from +5[21str] up to +7[24 str], but lets say your actually supported by someone who casts empowered bulls str your str increase will be from 3-7 STR, so your Str bonuses will be +6[22str] up to +8[26str]
This means that with a crowbar your buffed breaking stat will be from +10-+13.

Add to these frenzy potions +4, barbarian rage +4 and AoV +4, your stats will be +14-+17

I think stats cap at +12 in nwn.  Also, a str warrior with 15 base str is pretty durn low, imo. (Unless it's a str based gnome/halfling)

Reguardless, it sounds like a really high break DC with a low-ish open lock DC is one of two things:
1. Bug.
2. Encouragement for open lock users.

[Bluebomber4evr]

It's a variable cave. It's not always going to have goblins. It can also have bandits, undead, oozes, or monstrous bats. I haven't gotten around to fixing the initial problem yet, but thanks for bumping this so I won't forget.

[Ercvadasz]

Well depending on how your char is built, lets assume a Str warrior who starts with 15 str... high level say 16. Means your Str will probably be 19
Now if your a fighter your Breaking stats are likely to be, if we assume you have managed to find a crowbar by then 4+5=9 unbuffed.
Now lets add to that the fun buss Bulls Str adds between 2-5 Str, so for a 19 str it increases your str from +4 to be from +5[21str] up to +7[24 str], but lets say your actually supported by someone who casts empowered bulls str your str increase will be from 3-7 STR, so your Str bonuses will be +6[22str] up to +8[26str]
This means that with a crowbar your buffed breaking stat will be from +10-+13.

Add to these frenzy potions +4, barbarian rage +4 and AoV +4, your stats will be +14-+17

I think stats cap at +12 in nwn.  Also, a str warrior with 15 base str is pretty durn low, imo. (Unless it's a str based gnome/halfling)

Reguardless, it sounds like a really high break DC with a low-ish open lock DC is one of two things:
1. Bug.
2. Encouragement for open lock users.

str does not...my deceased druid was able to get his str up to 43...
empowered bulls +7 and dire bear form base 36 str....and no blood frenzy or aura of vitality.....with these he would have had 51 str.
and it counted allways normally vs chest force upon dc.

[HellsPanda]

The 14-17 is the crowbar breaking score actually, just me doing some bad english.


The str bonus that caps out at 12 is accurate, and might lower that number abit. 7+4+4 [so at max with rage and AoV] your strength increase will be 12 and not 15.
So the Breaking score will be 14-16

[LackofCertainty]

Well depending on how your char is built, lets assume a Str warrior who starts with 15 str... high level say 16. Means your Str will probably be 19
Now if your a fighter your Breaking stats are likely to be, if we assume you have managed to find a crowbar by then 4+5=9 unbuffed.
Now lets add to that the fun buss Bulls Str adds between 2-5 Str, so for a 19 str it increases your str from +4 to be from +5[21str] up to +7[24 str], but lets say your actually supported by someone who casts empowered bulls str your str increase will be from 3-7 STR, so your Str bonuses will be +6[22str] up to +8[26str]
This means that with a crowbar your buffed breaking stat will be from +10-+13.

Add to these frenzy potions +4, barbarian rage +4 and AoV +4, your stats will be +14-+17

Polymorphing alters your base stats temporarily, so it's not counted toward the +12, but buffs cap out at +12.   If you get +7 from your empowered, and +8 from activating a strength domain at high levels and +6 from raging you'll still only have +12 above your base strength.  
I think stats cap at +12 in nwn.  Also, a str warrior with 15 base str is pretty durn low, imo. (Unless it's a str based gnome/halfling)

Reguardless, it sounds like a really high break DC with a low-ish open lock DC is one of two things:
1. Bug.
2. Encouragement for open lock users.

str does not...my deceased druid was able to get his str up to 43...
empowered bulls +7 and dire bear form base 36 str....and no blood frenzy or aura of vitality.....with these he would have had 51 str.
and it counted allways normally vs chest force upon dc.

Edit: apparently my response here got nom'ed by the internet, but I was basically just going to say what Hell's panda says below.

[HellsPanda]

the boost to wildshape, isn't a str increase, it replaces your old str

[Ercvadasz]

the boost to wildshape, isn't a str increase, it replaces your old str

yep. and instead of the good old force open, you usually destroyed the container, and with a bit of luck, did not destroy any or all items:D