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Author Topic: Hiding character levels  (Read 10479 times)

Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #25 on: January 04, 2011, 12:46:32 PM »
It's a joke, dude :roll:

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #26 on: January 04, 2011, 01:37:23 PM »
While its a joke there's a few systems that do something similar but ehhhhhhhhhh.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #27 on: January 04, 2011, 03:05:32 PM »
I'd say either hide it all or none of it. Basicly because Exps are hard enough to come by when out in a group due to the highest lvl character in a group setting the exps.
So if the lvls are blocked out ,I'll be asking in ooc tells what the lvls of the group I'm in are. Because to me it isnt if your a wizard, rogue, fighter or whatever. Its if your 3 or more lvls higher then everyone else around you in the group. Now this is different if I'm just standing around rping. Rping exp is differnt. I can stand around and rp for 30 to an hour and get a satisfied (with Raredith) or go clear the reavers cave with one other person thats say (lvl 16) and get a You've been doing nothing with your time kinda message. From a max spawn.

I'm not sure if this would be a problem. Why a level 16 character would join in doing a dungeon from which he gets zero XP? Generally people have a good idea what level of challenge a certain enemy happens to be. If it's too easy, I doubt many would wish to fight for zero XP for the whole party.

I've never needed to use tells nor the player screen in order to know the level of party I am with. If a character is too high level for a dungeon, he probably knows it, and if he forces himself to stick with people who would get XP without his presence, the said person is an asshole. We don't have too many of those around, fortunately.

What Gunz is saying is that if my level 11 wizard goes to a dungeon with a level 16, and the dungeon is a good enough spawn that the level 16 can get experience there, then even if my wizard does a goodly portion of the fighting/killing, he will not get any experience, because the system assumes that the level 16 is responsible for most of the win-age.

 I have observed this, with Karas playing a signifigant role in some dungeons, even scoring most of the kills, for a rest message of "You dont feel like you have been doing much", while a higher level party member is getting proud or satisfied messages. Right now, that is my fault for having my wizard adventure with someone much higher level than him, but if we remove the ability to see levels, it will happen much more often without people being aware that they are with a party outside of their level range.
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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #28 on: January 04, 2011, 03:14:42 PM »
in the scenario that you gave neither of you have lost anything at all.  You would get a proud message if you were not with him, but if you are with him and there is no risk then neither of you have been harmed by the xp gain at all. He got normal and you got the lesser of the xp because you are not his level. reading the messages are very different for a spellcaster and a non spellcaster. The non-spellcaster will see many many more proud messages because they rest infrequently. Usually at the very end of the dungeon, whilst a mage is resting for every rebuff.
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MidnightMask

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #29 on: January 04, 2011, 04:01:15 PM »
To the latter part of your message: The fighter and I rest at the same time while dungeoning, as her HP tends to run out as my spells get low, and in some of these dungeons we require multiple rests to complete, which removes possible prior RP experience etc. from the equation, and I have still noticed a signifigant gap in the messages, so I am fairly confident that it mostly comes down to the gap in levels.

Which is as it should be, I am not trying to say that a lower level should get as much experience as a signifigantly higher level character in a dungeon, I am just pointing that our system does discourage partying with someone outside of your level range, and that with hidden levels, it is going to be harder to judge which characters you can party with to the best effect.

It isn't a great issue, as I prefer to pick my parties based on IC interaction anyways (Which is why Karas continues to dungeon with a level 16 despite gaining little experience), but it is something to consider.
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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #30 on: January 04, 2011, 09:09:51 PM »
If levels were to be removed entirely, perhaps some addition to the Examine tool/feat could be added with regards to level, to help people grouping and other such problems?

That would hide class and everyones levels, meaning no more 'Witch, witch, Palemaster, Assassin, Paladin, etc', but also help to avoid MPC's obliterating noobish characters, and mean if you're looking for a balanced group, you can just check someones vague level to be sure.

Something like either:

Levels 2-5 : Seems lost in the mists
Levels 6-9: Seems fairly competent
Levels 10-13: Seems experienced
Levels 14-16: Seems battlehardened
Levels 17+: Seems masterful


Or simply have it in relation to you:

Three or more levels below: Seems an easy target
One or two below: Seems capable of defending themself
Equal: Seems a fair fight.
One or two above: Seems to be a challenge
Three or more above: Seems intimidating

tzaeru

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #31 on: January 04, 2011, 09:44:42 PM »
If levels were to be removed entirely, perhaps some addition to the Examine tool/feat could be added with regards to level, to help people grouping and other such problems?

Urgh, I'd hate if examining Delardious gave "Appears masterful". :P

That would hide class and everyones levels, meaning no more 'Witch, witch, Palemaster, Assassin, Paladin, etc', but also help to avoid MPC's obliterating noobish characters, and mean if you're looking for a balanced group, you can just check someones vague level to be sure.

I think more often than the player list, the IC descriptions and overall appearance of a character gives away her class. "Appears strong", "Has a slightly compelling presence", "Seems very aware most of the time" -> wears armor -> cleric. "Appears physically very/extremely strong", "Moves about spryly", "Looks hardy" -> Fighter.

Telkar

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #32 on: January 04, 2011, 09:51:34 PM »
Three or more levels below: Seems an easy target
One or two below: Seems capable of defending themself
Equal: Seems a fair fight.
One or two above: Seems to be a challenge
Three or more above: Seems intimidating

You could make that even more vague, but still serving the purpose of finding a good party partner.

It could show about the examined one:

IF he's more than 3 levels below or above you THEN you get message "Seems incompatible(or the like)"

IF he's within 3 levels of you THEN you get message "Seems compatible(or the like)"

That number could be changed to 4 or whatever, if that'd make more sense for us.

tzaeru

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #33 on: January 04, 2011, 09:55:14 PM »
What Gunz is saying is that if my level 11 wizard goes to a dungeon with a level 16, and the dungeon is a good enough spawn that the level 16 can get experience there, then even if my wizard does a goodly portion of the fighting/killing, he will not get any experience, because the system assumes that the level 16 is responsible for most of the win-age.

 I have observed this, with Karas playing a signifigant role in some dungeons, even scoring most of the kills, for a rest message of "You dont feel like you have been doing much", while a higher level party member is getting proud or satisfied messages. Right now, that is my fault for having my wizard adventure with someone much higher level than him, but if we remove the ability to see levels, it will happen much more often without people being aware that they are with a party outside of their level range.

Well, if a level 16 character gets fair XP from a dungeon, is this dungeon's level of difficulty such that your level 11 wizard even should be there? How I'm seeing it is that players generally have a good clue of what level of difficulty a given place is and thus take their characters there within some ~4 level range.

Personally I haven't noticed a dramatic XP drop due to 5 levels of difference in the party. We did Alhoon with a level 15 and a level 9 character and earned nicely few proud messages - with that level 9 char leveling in the side, too.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2011, 09:59:43 PM by tzaeru »

Ternce

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #34 on: January 05, 2011, 07:15:46 AM »
If levels were to be removed entirely, perhaps some addition to the Examine tool/feat could be added with regards to level, to help people grouping and other such problems?

That would hide class and everyones levels, meaning no more 'Witch, witch, Palemaster, Assassin, Paladin, etc', but also help to avoid MPC's obliterating noobish characters, and mean if you're looking for a balanced group, you can just check someones vague level to be sure.

Something like either:

Levels 2-5 : Seems lost in the mists
Levels 6-9: Seems fairly competent
Levels 10-13: Seems experienced
Levels 14-16: Seems battlehardened
Levels 17+: Seems masterful


Or simply have it in relation to you:

Three or more levels below: Seems an easy target
One or two below: Seems capable of defending themself
Equal: Seems a fair fight.
One or two above: Seems to be a challenge
Three or more above: Seems intimidating

I like this idea for a system.  I really don't like the idea that my guy has no clue whatsoever how to size up situations, and this line in the examine tool might help me avoid the constant "You feel like you could do more if you faced challenges of your level of ability" message.  To me, anyway,  while the main point of hiding levels and classes is to give you the sense that you can't know everything about someone by a cursory glance.  However, it serves an additional out of character point of hiding levels to protect new players from threats like your typical character on every server that plays a good guy their whole life, then at level 13 or so they figure "Hey, I'm pretty powerful.  Time to go on a killing spree."  Essentially, hiding levels serves the OOC purpose of weeding out griefers by adding that air of mystery that "This person might kill you.  You have no idea what level they are."

The way things are now, however, since it takes forever to level, the griefers simply acknowledge that they have never seen this person before and they can probably treat them however they want, unless they want to die, of course.  Sadly, I have been unable to play any character here who can interract with anyone with a sense of pride or dignity just because for standing up for himself slightly, he will be butchered brutally, talked to like a dog, or repeatedly barbed until the point of PVP -must- occur if you want to represent that character's sense of dignity or honor at all.  Showing levels and classes at the very least gives you the opportunity to quickly recognize these situations and just walk away before the situation escalates to that point.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #35 on: January 05, 2011, 10:21:32 AM »
Yet wouldn't that be solved by placing the Challenge ratings back in?

 As for playing characters with pride or dignity, I play a character with pride. Edmond is proud of being dementlieuse, a noble and being a member of his family. He is more than willing to challenge someone to a duel if someone offends him strong enough. Of course He lives in Dementlieu as the owner of a newspaper and a gendarme. Siegfried, is a 4th sect ezrite, so he has strong feelings for Ezra and views almost all who do not worship Ezra as Heathens.


Thoraion

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #36 on: January 10, 2011, 03:59:00 AM »
In fact, i am in favour of showing the character levels in some way.
It offers at least a chance for
- not dragging lowbies in mid-/high level dungeons (i think first asking everyone for their level is not really better - in fact worse, since is interrupts the play)
- MPC or other villains to tone down their attacks and thus reducing the risk of impaired corpses

The system described earlier with a relative rating really looks promising - in fact, it is the power level that is affected by my aforementioned points.

But showing character classes in the login-screens also offers hooks for interaction. Yes, meta gaming is evil - but how long do you expect a player to search for a teacher for his desired prestige class? This way you can contact characters with the right class and arrange a meeting.
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KBlackwell

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #37 on: January 21, 2011, 04:24:06 PM »
Any updates from the devs/DMs/official people on if there're plans for this?

Edit:  I also just noticed that FRC has just updated their server with this system as well.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2011, 05:26:24 PM by KBlackwell »
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Miuo

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #38 on: January 21, 2011, 05:07:04 PM »
The last server i played on had this, where classes and levels were hidden. I actually liked it, so i agree with the idea. When i log in i dont even bother looking at the list of people. I wait till i am in game to browse the player list.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #39 on: January 21, 2011, 07:17:21 PM »
Any updates from the devs/DMs/official people on if there're plans for this?

Edit:  I also just noticed that FRC has just updated their server with this system as well.

It's looking like we'll have NWNx soon (and thus be able to do this), but no promises.

kvanio

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #40 on: February 09, 2011, 11:52:31 PM »
People need to see character levels to get an idea of what their dealing with in my opinion.. For example. A new player makes a tough guy that's level 2 and encounters a female elf, that is physically weaker than him.. however shes a level 20 mage, so she owns him in 3 seconds when he tries to bully her or something.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #41 on: February 10, 2011, 12:03:45 AM »
People need to see character levels to get an idea of what their dealing with in my opinion.. For example. A new player makes a tough guy that's level 2 and encounters a female elf, that is physically weaker than him.. however shes a level 20 mage, so she owns him in 3 seconds when he tries to bully her or something.

So... you think people should be able to metagame?

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #42 on: February 10, 2011, 12:19:05 AM »
People need to see character levels to get an idea of what their dealing with in my opinion.. For example. A new player makes a tough guy that's level 2 and encounters a female elf, that is physically weaker than him.. however shes a level 20 mage, so she owns him in 3 seconds when he tries to bully her or something.

My char used to have this little bit of advice to new players he'd meet:  "You'll need friends and allies to survive.  Choose wisely.  People are not what they seem." 

I'm sure more than a few thought he was being dramatic.   ;)
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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #43 on: February 10, 2011, 03:11:04 AM »
thats just silly, and its also quite common in Hong Kong movies and literary works. The big powerfull warrior giant, attacks the small yet quick chinesse fellow, only to have him run around him like the wind, and end with him picking his teeth out of the bowl of the village fountains statue.

What hiding levels does is make you have to judge who is powerfull by their IC actions. The only bad thing I see, and its not something thats been  needed often so not really a biggie, but its easier for players to see someone who has the wrong balance of classes like barb 1/fighter 19

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #44 on: February 10, 2011, 06:08:47 AM »
If levels were to be removed entirely, perhaps some addition to the Examine tool/feat could be added with regards to level, to help people grouping and other such problems?

That would hide class and everyones levels, meaning no more 'Witch, witch, Palemaster, Assassin, Paladin, etc', but also help to avoid MPC's obliterating noobish characters, and mean if you're looking for a balanced group, you can just check someones vague level to be sure.

Something like either:

Levels 2-5 : Seems lost in the mists
Levels 6-9: Seems fairly competent
Levels 10-13: Seems experienced
Levels 14-16: Seems battlehardened
Levels 17+: Seems masterful


Or simply have it in relation to you:

Three or more levels below: Seems an easy target
One or two below: Seems capable of defending themself
Equal: Seems a fair fight.
One or two above: Seems to be a challenge
Three or more above: Seems intimidating

Remove charecter levels but put a challenge rating back in? Hmm no I think the removal of challenge ratings was the best thing to happen to roleplay in NWN, so to put it back in would be a sin.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #45 on: February 11, 2011, 03:24:22 AM »
You make too big of a fuss over the issue of grouping when you dont know the levels. You all propably know eachothers levels pretty well, and most of the time groups are almost created in tells, you can easily ask people what lv they are and so forth. It wont ruin your delicate rp if you spend one second to type // level? when meeting a party and interested joining them

Also making challenge ratings visible is just bad idea. What if you try to rp totally something different that you really are, and challenge rating blows your cover? Like your skilled mage but you are rp'ing that your just a normal farmer or whatever, then when someones checks your challenge rating and sees something along the lines "challengin" they go instantly in detective-mode and start to pester you about everything untill finally your cover is blown... thats full metagame to me.

Hiding levels and class is the best thing since sliced bread.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #46 on: February 11, 2011, 04:06:57 AM »
Hiding levels and class is the best thing since sliced bread.
^ This.  I have no additional argument to add, so simply assume I'm in favour of the above.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2011, 02:56:53 PM »
More mystery and uncertainty will be added with the removal of levels and classes.
As for grouping and finding your own level it is really not needed to use tells or such, it can all be done in ic.


[a mighty group of warriors all of same season, all familiar with each other and with long history have decided to venture and fight the threat of dog beasts coming from the mountain. They start to gear up. A newcomer fresh off the boat.er Mist,  approaches them]
Newcomer: Umm excuse me Sires I couldnt help overhearing, are you going to do the gnollz?
Warrior 1: [chuckles to himself and continues sorting his gear]
Warrior 2:[Takes a brief glance at the Newcomer and mutters to himself, giving a slight motion with his hand to his fellow Warrior 3]
Warrior 3: [Nods to Warrior 2 in acknowledgment, steps up and faces the Newcomer] Aye lad, you are correct. [Starts sizing up the Newcomer]
Newcomer: Can I come with you guys?
Warrior 3: [Steps closer to the Newcomer, still appraising him] How many seasons have passed since the Mists brought you here lad?
Newcomer: [Lies] Eleven.
Warrior 3: Alright lad, you shall take the front line then. [turns to his fellow warriors] Lets head out lads, the new lad will lead the way.
..


A little communication through ic can go along way in finding out if someone is good to party up with or not.
Also, food for thoughts: can a lower lvl Mpc/Pc  defeat much higher lvl Mpc/Pcs just through means of rolling a good grapple and or similar checks?
Any challenge rating, or new descriptions just defeats the purpose of hiding levels/class.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2011, 03:12:34 PM »
More mystery and uncertainty will be added with the removal of levels and classes.
As for grouping and finding your own level it is really not needed to use tells or such, it can all be done in ic.


[a mighty group of warriors all of same season, all familiar with each other and with long history have decided to venture and fight the threat of dog beasts coming from the mountain. They start to gear up. A newcomer fresh off the boat.er Mist,  approaches them]
Newcomer: Umm excuse me Sires I couldnt help overhearing, are you going to do the gnollz?
Warrior 1: [chuckles to himself and continues sorting his gear]
Warrior 2:[Takes a brief glance at the Newcomer and mutters to himself, giving a slight motion with his hand to his fellow Warrior 3]
Warrior 3: [Nods to Warrior 2 in acknowledgment, steps up and faces the Newcomer] Aye lad, you are correct. [Starts sizing up the Newcomer]
Newcomer: Can I come with you guys?
Warrior 3: [Steps closer to the Newcomer, still appraising him] How many seasons have passed since the Mists brought you here lad?
Newcomer: [Lies] Eleven.
Warrior 3: Alright lad, you shall take the front line then. [turns to his fellow warriors] Lets head out lads, the new lad will lead the way.
..

Such seems... Very, very OOC.

'Are you going to do the Gnolls' for one thing makes me facepalm, generally because it's used with the same magnitude as a daily chore.

Are you going to do the shopping? Are you going to do the dishes? Are you going to go risk life and limb fighting against merciless eight-foot tall dog-monster hordes with teeth like knives? Can I come?

Plus it's fairly OOC to judge level by how long since the mists bought someone. By that logic, a Barovian lad who has spent all his time woodcutting and therefore been in the mists all his life should be level 84 or something by now.

I don't think it'll add much in the way of mystery and uncertainty. We'll all have a fairly good idea of what level someone or other is sooner or later anyway.

Hiding classes would add some interest, in suddenly discovering someone is a dragon disciple, for instance, or finding that they're a Cleric when they start casting healing/buffing spells. But as someone coming from NWN2, trust me, the inability to see someone's level and classes dosen't add anything, and tends to encourage more merciless, shameless cheesing.

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Re: Hiding character levels
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2011, 03:41:53 PM »
It was simple random scenario, you can put yourself in the shoes of the Warriors and rephrase the questions, scenario, adventure, any way you want or simply ignore the newcomer.
Tell you one thing, it is certainly less of an ooc than sending a tell to the newcomer:


We saw in the login screen that you are not the same level as we are, we can't take you. Go back to log in screen and see if you can find someone else that is your level and then approach them and ask them if they want to party with you.


You know what is the most common Mist question when a group is forming on the outskirts?

Can I tag along ?

And then after that you get tells, wut lvl are u guysz?


I used to judge players in their roleplaying levels they can be lvl 1 Barbarian but in my book the would be lvl 40 roleplayer.

And I agree with you that sooner or later we will all find out what level is someone, but in order to know that you would have to spend some time with the player, thus roleplaying.