Hiding character levels

[KBlackwell]

Now, I did search before posting this, things like 'hidden levels, hiding levels, invisible levels ect.' before posting this just to be sure.. but

I think it would be a good idea to implement the system that other servers are using in order to hide character levels.  How it stands now, you can see just how powerful that MPC that attacked you was, and you can know what other characters can, and cannot do.  As it stands now, all it takes is a quick look to identify Witch, witch, witch, MPC is level 12, witch, evil palemaster witch and so on.

Even though people will obviously try not to meta- knowing characters levels, I think a lot of it can happen subconsciously.  Even those little OOC thoughs we try to keep out of out characters, like "Alright, I barely beat that MPC last time, but it's grew 3 levels since then, I don't think I can take it alone this time" would in turn be something more along the lines of "Alright, I beat this before, It's been a while though, let's just hope I can pull it off again"

I think it would add a lot to the atmosphere, simply not knowing if someone is a wizard, or if they can run faster by being a barbarian or a Monk, making players guess if they -really- think they know their enemy enough to best them.

[Telkar]

That'd be really nice, but seems there is a problem:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=17626.0

[Bluebomber4evr]

Axel's actually looking into NWNx right now. If it turns out we can use it, this will be one of the functions we implement.

[KBlackwell]

The whole security thing is probably above my head, but I really can't see what the problem is if most of all the servers with 25+ players are using it.  I know Forgotten Realms: Cormyr is making the switch to remove levels as we speak.


EDIT - I didn't see Blue's post, please disregard all I just said xP

[Telkar]

Axel's actually looking into NWNx right now. If it turns out we can use it, this will be one of the functions we implement.

 

[LawfulJoe]

As a MPC, I personally like the level listed. It helps me not to roll some new 2nd level player and gives me a target list of fair challenges. I know in real ilfe we don't know if the person we are intending to mug is a 5th degree black belt or a glass jawed wimp, but in a game where people cry foul when that get near insta-killed by a MPC because they were a low level noob cruising around the outskirts after dark or in the sewers using their familiar to cash in on Rat bodies. When you stop complaining (not you the poster of this thread but you the complainer player) that some big mean MPC ate me, then... I would agree to removing the levels from the login screen.

[Jay]

As a MPC, I personally like the level listed. It helps me not to roll some new 2nd level player and gives me a target list of fair challenges. I know in real ilfe we don't know if the person we are intending to mug is a 5th degree black belt or a glass jawed wimp, but in a game where people cry foul when that get near insta-killed by a MPC because they were a low level noob cruising around the outskirts after dark or in the sewers using their familiar to cash in on Rat bodies. When you stop complaining (not you the poster of this thread but you the complainer player) that some big mean MPC ate me, then... I would agree to removing the levels from the login screen.

I have to agree with this, from a OOC point of veiw it is a lot easier to accidentally Greif someone when you initiate combat with a vast level difference without knowing. It's not like i go out my way to PVP but when i do i try to never attack classes lower level then I am because it's just not fair.

[Emomina]

I like the idea. What is most needed is for people to stop thinking that griefing occurs on PotM.  High level difference between two sides does not make PvPing or even dungeoning a terrible experience. Remove the levels from the login screen and let the game play out. Think about how fun it will be to hear about the dangerous encounter with another PC through the grapevine and not actually have game mechanics to put it in perspective. Word of mouth will be all relative and potentially misguided.

Will the actual list of who is online still be available from log in though?

Btw. Actual griefing is a rare occurrence on PotM, and when it does occur the offender is addressed in a timely manner. Considering that, it should free up everyone to put the ooc considerations secondary, and focus on what is perceived through the eyes of your character.

[Aahz]

As a MPC, I personally like the level listed. It helps me not to roll some new 2nd level player and gives me a target list of fair challenges. I know in real ilfe we don't know if the person we are intending to mug is a 5th degree black belt or a glass jawed wimp, but in a game where people cry foul when that get near insta-killed by a MPC because they were a low level noob cruising around the outskirts after dark or in the sewers using their familiar to cash in on Rat bodies. When you stop complaining (not you the poster of this thread but you the complainer player) that some big mean MPC ate me, then... I would agree to removing the levels from the login screen.

I have to agree with this, from a OOC point of veiw it is a lot easier to accidentally Greif someone when you initiate combat with a vast level difference without knowing. It's not like i go out my way to PVP but when i do i try to never attack classes lower level then I am because it's just not fair.

Being able to see character levels at the login screen is also very useful to get a general idea of who you can party with reasonably without having to ask everyone OOC.

[Norture]

When I was low level, I loved the scary MPC actions. As long as they act like scary MPCs and RP a bit, I don't see a problem.

[marlewebber]

I would support seeing "who" and not "what," it would give less away and prevent others from metagaming MPCs.

Even the character picture is superfluous and provides insight as to whether the creature is currently polymorphed

[arrmuth]

I saw a MPC one shot a toon that was sitting around after dark the other night and well hey..its Ravenloft. I am personally all for levels being removed. Its all about the character not the character level.

[tzaeru]

 

I doubt there's much grief, and personally I believe most players don't let OOC knowledge of character levels affect their IC reactions. But knowing OOC the character level of someone does take off fair amount of excitement and mystery from the player, even if the reaction of a character was exactly same.

[Strigoi]

something like this has its ups and downs.


i agree with Lawful that its nice to see who is a challenge, and who might be a low level encounter that requires some "grooming". but like everything its a two way street, removing this also means you cant cry foul when you get steam rolled by an encounter that turns into PVP. since no one will have such information available to them anymore to avoid it 



The Age of Mayvind is Upon us!

[Ercvadasz]

well, if you keep telling folks to stay inside, but venture outside, they should even be prepared to be able to defend themselves...or face the consequences.
Sad but true, this is barovia night. You walk out of the temple at night, you might just fall dead instantly, because you walk into a trap or active spell or some random monster
taking AOO on you, and crits.
MPCs are meant to take on folks, without having the same knowledge about who is challenging and who is a starting noob. Starting noob goes out after dark, even if half the server tells him not to, well it serves him/her right. We all just have to learn it the hard way than.
i am totally supporting the remove level and remove CLASS idea too. you want a witch? find one! you want a cleric? find one!:)
and basicly folks can die easily in the temple as well, seeing how sometimes the creatures of the night, or hell somehow find their way inside:)
<occasional escapee of the night, drags in some neuri, whatever, that kill the afk, or resting folks, occasional skeleton warrior/champ running up to the temple, slaughtering the first guys it notices>

[Telkar]

Even the character picture is superfluous and provides insight as to whether the creature is currently polymorphed

Oh man, please tell me the portraits will also be hidden on the startup screen. That would give MPCs utter, and total immunity from any player knowing OOC whether they're even an MPC at all.

Even if that won't happen, having the lvls hidden has much more ups than downs to me.

[Ternce]

Instead of hiding character levels, why not just remove them entirely?  Levels do absolutely nothing to enhance roleplay imo.

[herkles]

@Ternce: how would you go about achiving that in NWN, based on DnD(which loves the level based system). I myself agree with you which is why for PnP i prefer systems other than DnD. I am partial to warhammer, BRP, and world of darkness. However NWN uses DnD's system which means we got what we got.

I am one who is neutral on this, when I log in, I look more for people's character's names over levels, so I would favor this if one could still the charachter's names when you logged on.

[GunzNrosZ]

I'd say either hide it all or none of it. Basicly because Exps are hard enough to come by when out in a group due to the highest lvl character in a group setting the exps.
So if the lvls are blocked out ,I'll be asking in ooc tells what the lvls of the group I'm in are. Because to me it isnt if your a wizard, rogue, fighter or whatever. Its if your 3 or more lvls higher then everyone else around you in the group. Now this is different if I'm just standing around rping. Rping exp is differnt. I can stand around and rp for 30 to an hour and get a satisfied (with Raredith) or go clear the reavers cave with one other person thats say (lvl 16) and get a You've been doing nothing with your time kinda message. From a max spawn.

[Arcus]

I'm for keeping the levels shown for that reason. Bad metagaming says "Oh, this person is level 2, let's grief them." And that player gets in trouble anyway.
Good metagaming says "Oh, that person is level 2, lets either introduce them to the server if they're just floundering about" or "Oh hey, that person's my level and I like the smell of adventure, let's go take them along if our characters like eachother"

[tzaeru]

I'd say either hide it all or none of it. Basicly because Exps are hard enough to come by when out in a group due to the highest lvl character in a group setting the exps.
So if the lvls are blocked out ,I'll be asking in ooc tells what the lvls of the group I'm in are. Because to me it isnt if your a wizard, rogue, fighter or whatever. Its if your 3 or more lvls higher then everyone else around you in the group. Now this is different if I'm just standing around rping. Rping exp is differnt. I can stand around and rp for 30 to an hour and get a satisfied (with Raredith) or go clear the reavers cave with one other person thats say (lvl 16) and get a You've been doing nothing with your time kinda message. From a max spawn.

I'm not sure if this would be a problem. Why a level 16 character would join in doing a dungeon from which he gets zero XP? Generally people have a good idea what level of challenge a certain enemy happens to be. If it's too easy, I doubt many would wish to fight for zero XP for the whole party.

I've never needed to use tells nor the player screen in order to know the level of party I am with. If a character is too high level for a dungeon, he probably knows it, and if he forces himself to stick with people who would get XP without his presence, the said person is an asshole. We don't have too many of those around, fortunately.

[Aahz]

All I know is that every server that I have played on where the levels are hidden I have always eventually gotten a "what level are you?" tell when forming a party. I can probably even still predict pretty accurately when it will come in the In character conversation about where to go.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Instead of hiding character levels, why not just remove them entirely?  Levels do absolutely nothing to enhance roleplay imo.

 

A pressing topic for next developer meeting!

[Telkar]

Instead of hiding character levels, why not just remove them entirely?  Levels do absolutely nothing to enhance roleplay imo.

 

A pressing topic for next developer meeting!

 

[herkles]

Instead of hiding character levels, why not just remove them entirely?  Levels do absolutely nothing to enhance roleplay imo.

 

A pressing topic for next developer meeting!

explain how it is possible to remove character levels, please?