vallaki outskirts npcs and farmlands

[herkles]

Hello,

I was thinking earlier about why I liked the village of Barovia's atmosphere, and aside from the fact that the town is a lot smaller, I also noticed that the outskirts of the village is a farmland area. So I was thinking that maybe the Western Outskirts could have some farms around it, and I mean in the area itself. I think it would be good having some of the areas for farming, as that is what a lot of barovians do for a living. so it would IMO increase some of the atmosphere, plus it might reduce the feeling that the western outskirts is mini-fearun and not a place that no barovian goes to unless they have to or are insane.  If that is not possible maybe some NPC barovians could be added for similar reasons?

Thoughts?

-herkles?

[Heretic]

-herkles?

Are you sure it was you that signed that...? Having an identity crisis, aren't we?

[Bad_Bud]

There are already farms to the north, northeast, east, south, southeast, and west of Vallaki.  There is no lack of farmland, other than in the outskirts itself, and I don't think throwing up more crops would do anything to the atmosphere.

[Feronius]

I'd maybe like to see some shacks in the Outskirts (meaning directly near the Lady's rest) and other buildings in a state worse than the slums. So the transition from city to outskirts to farmland is a bit smoother.. rather than currently, where there's somewhat of a foresty gap between the orphanage and isolated church/tavern combo. Like a sort of temporary slums for outlanders, as that's essentially what it's used as IC?

Just a rough idea, seeing right now I kind of have the idea it's just a church and tavern that don't quite connect the farmlands and city together IC.
(I think that might also kind of have been what the original poster ment?)

[dutchy]

Yes you are herkles dont worry
So farm area in the western outskkirts, nah Why would the barovians make their farms near a huge temple and the gallows not to start about the fact its a hotspot for outlander trouble

[herkles]

Shacks don't fit vallaki that is a small town with, 1,547 people, a number of other barovian towns are larger btw. Also i agree with what EO said long ago when he stated this.

The issue with the guard, and with Vallaki as a whole, is a mistake we've made in development. We made Vallaki -very- big when really the town would likely be two areas big normally instead of the six we've used. We have acknowledged this problem and are taking steps to tone down this perception as much as possible.

I myself would like to see vallaki much smaller, as EO mentioned. But doubt that would happen, so thus I made this suggestion to try and give the feeling that the outskirts is still part of barovia and a part of vallaki and not this outcast, outlander haven that is a mini-fearun that it is sometimes thought of as. and I also did state that just NPCs could be added to the outskirts.

on a slightly diffrent note: could the various farms have some serfs outside doing farm work or just their to show that farmers exist, ie the ones currently in the module?

-herkles

[Bad_Bud]

I'm not sure scaling Vallaki down would add to the feel you're looking for, since it would make the ratio of natives to outlanders go way down.

[Arcus]

From a player perspective I wouldn't mind the size being lowered, but there's me liking smaller areas from a load and travel perspective.

[Feronius]

I'm not sure scaling Vallaki down would add to the feel you're looking for, since it would make the ratio of natives to outlanders go way down.

Exactly.

Maybe there should either be an adaption of Vallaki in size (bigger) relative to the player actions, aka there being a lot of newcomers and outlanders there thanks to the mists.
Or maybe there should be an adaption of Vallaki in size (smaller) relative to the lore, it actually not being so big as portrayed.


Either seem fine, but I share bad_bud's concern that the natives will be outnumbered even more (PC wise) and that wouldn't exactly be a great thing? So why don't we propose another more drastical measure...? It's worth considering at the least (even if only in thought.)

"What if we put the startzone near another town in Barovia? Say the nearest (actually big lorewise) town to Vallaki?"
I would love to see how that turns out. Although I have little geographical knowledge of D&D so wouldn't know which town would be an option though..

[Arcus]

I don't get how changing Valakki's size would change the amount of natives opposed to outlanders. I imagine these characters are made when players feel like playing them. If anything, a smaller Valakki would be easier to police for Garda pcs.

[dutchy]

true yet most of us garda like having districts what you people do not seem to get is that vallaki is the meeting point in this hub you logon as a newbie and see a big city with guardsa harrasing you other outlanders warning you its dangerous and that youre stuck here.

it all adds to the big picture and feeling how it is.

as for the ratio of natives and outlanders   well ppl have a tendency to go by what they see if they see a small town then theres a small population.

would be even less rp for guards if they made it smaller

[Zedrik]

I lived in a town of 1350ish from the day I was born until I was 14.
It consisted of two roads crossing and nearly all businesses where within viewing distance of the intersection.
Residential areas filled in the rest and then beyond that was a factory and lots of farms and fields and some forested areas.
Vallaki is a medieval town rather than a modern one, but it doesn't really seem to be huge for 1500 people.

[respawnaholic]

I'd like to see Vallaki smaller as I think It would help add to the atmosphere of an oppressive night. Citys by their nature (which Vallaki currently resembles) tend to be more cosmopolitan. Not really conductive to hordes of slak-jawed hyper superstitious peasantry. (To me its kind of the difference between "Children of the Corn" set in rural Nebraska vs downtown Manhatten. The creepiness factor just isnt the same.

The only thing about making Vallaki smaller (other than the obvious time involved in remaking it) are the sewers would have to be reworked somehow too. I can rationalise a sewer system for a city, but a genuine town would have no need for a sewer of such magnitude. Also the number of outlanders would seem to really strain the local economy of a town of only 1000 or so people. I know this isnt a genuine ecology, but given the number of outlanders there are in and around vallaki it would almost mean there is one outlander for every Vallaki native. Someone mentioned adding some more buildings to the outskirts, but if there were THAT many outlanders residing near Vallaki maybe a case could be made for an entire outlander ghetto (that the guarda would still be responsible for) or such set opposite the inn and the temple from Vallaki. Then players could still use those two features as a common meeting ground.

Oh..and a totally unrelated thought......I used to be on a server that gave a small EXP reward for exploring new areas. I think something like this would be perfect for RPOTM given its massive size and the obscureness of many of its locations. I know one of the things I did when I was new was just wander around. Seems like a nice way to reward people for exploring.

[herkles]

I'd like to see Vallaki smaller as I think It would help add to the atmosphere of an oppressive night. Citys by their nature (which Vallaki currently resembles) tend to be more cosmopolitan. Not really conductive to hordes of slak-jawed hyper superstitious peasantry. (To me its kind of the difference between "Children of the Corn" set in rural Nebraska vs downtown Manhatten. The creepiness factor just isnt the same.

The only thing about making Vallaki smaller (other than the obvious time involved in remaking it) are the sewers would have to be reworked somehow too. I can rationalise a sewer system for a city, but a genuine town would have no need for a sewer of such magnitude. Also the number of outlanders would seem to really strain the local economy of a town of only 1000 or so people. I know this isnt a genuine ecology, but given the number of outlanders there are in and around vallaki it would almost mean there is one outlander for every Vallaki native. Someone mentioned adding some more buildings to the outskirts, but if there were THAT many outlanders residing near Vallaki maybe a case could be made for an entire outlander ghetto (that the guarda would still be responsible for) or such set opposite the inn and the temple from Vallaki. Then players could still use those two features as a common meeting ground.

Oh..and a totally unrelated thought......I used to be on a server that gave a small EXP reward for exploring new areas. I think something like this would be perfect for RPOTM given its massive size and the obscureness of many of its locations. I know one of the things I did when I was new was just wander around. Seems like a nice way to reward people for exploring.

That is actually what I would like for Vallaki. It annoys me how vallaki is actually larger In game than the port, no really it is.
the port has the following Quartiers: Marchand, ourvier, publique, and savant.
Vallaki has the following districts: merchant, slums, whearhous, goverment, noble, residential, and docks.

Plus as you said, their is a diffrent atmosphere in the city compared to the small town. They both can be horrifying but a small town has a lot diffrent sort of terror. And that sort of terror is what barovia is about. As for an outlander ghetto, the thing is that is not canon, also the fact that basicly is player-housing. Which I would like, but isn't possible.

I really love the atmosphere of the village and of Krofberg both which are a lot smaller and nights their seem to be creepier than the vallaki, which has more rats than richemulot it seems I never did understand all those rats, I really like how the other places are empty it does add to the feeling of old night *nods*

[Emomina]

The difference that you note, is partly if not mainly due to Vallaki being designed in a time before there was the idea for other domains. If you nitpick things like that then you are essentially asking that if new areas are developed for the module that compare unfavorably scale wise to existing areas that the old areas must then be changed scale to match.
Its a fluid ever changing module, you have to not nitpick scale and allow each designer to decide the scale used after weighing all factors.

Playerside you only have one perspective, but having seen the Dev Team's design process while working on Har'Akir I know that scale is something chosen for a variety of reasons, including the resources dedicated to each area and the prominence of the area in the module. Each area is mostly the product of the timeframe it was developed in. Different factors affect each dev effort.

[respawnaholic]

I dont think anyone is nit picking anything so much as responding to what one of the developers himself pointed out. Vallaki is too big. From there I saw it as a bunch of people just generating ideas. I was just throwing ideas out there for fun basically. About the whole ghetto thing. I didnt realise it wasn't cannon.

The only thing I'll ruthlessly and endlessly nit pick is the fatigue system. ;P

[Miuo]

It would be nice to have the city trimed down to just three maps. Make the market district have more of the shops and places where you work on your skills. Be nice to have more people in the area to make it more of a bustling market to run into peoples (nod nod) When i first came here and enterd the city i was like ". . .this is going to take ages. . . ." Took me three IC days to wander the entire city checking doors, shops and such. the end result i felt like there was way to much useless dead space. A alternative would or could be to simply shrink the maps them selves. Leave the same amount and such just cut out chunks of useless parts.

[Zedrik]

Keep this in mind about what Vallaki is:

Once, Vallaki was a quaint lakeshore holiday spot for noble families, but it has since grown into a prosperous economic heartland for Barovia.

Between the clanging blacksmith shops and riotous fish markets are musty bookstores filled with esoterica and unassuming storefronts for ecstatic mediums and mystics.

Vallaki is a trade hub and crossroads for the entire southern Core, agricultural center (mostly orchards and their respective distilleries), and a former villla for nobles. Vallaki isn't some isolated hamlet like Kroftburg. It's right there on the Old Svalich, has a fishing port on Lake Zarovich, is large enough to hold a sizable slum area. Vallaki is a large town with many characteristics of a small city.

I agree though that it could use a small reduction in size on some of its maps. But they are fine as they are since reducing them would take time and effort that I'd rather see going into making new stuff or fixing more important issues, like the lack of ox sellers in Kroftburg and the lack of a barn or stable in the Outskirts.

[herkles]

It is not a large town. other towns in Barovia are bigger and arguably more important. For example compare Vallaki to Krezk. also note that vallaki is a Small Town It is not on the verge of being a city, but a small town. I find it strange how large vallaki is and I do think that the town could be made smaller to have the atmosphere that barovia is known for. *nods*

vallaki: small town
800 gp limit
assets: 61,880 gp
population 1,547: isolated

Krezk: large town
3,000 gp limit
Assets 309,000
population, 2,060 isolated

[Miuo]

I know its supposed to be biggish, but having so much dead space to just give the image of a big town or such seems a bit pointless if half the areas are unused and become dead space because it is to big to be used. Don't think it would hurt either to make a few more abandoned houses people could use either. Would maybe help to actually move around a little rather then everyone always being at the Inn or Temple most the time. Even dropping the maps one or two and trim out a lot of the useless buildings between would improve activity in the city i think, since the chance of running into someone would be a lot higher. Though at night would probably increase the chances of hitting a lot more rat spawns to.  Dunno it may just be me, but even if a town is supposed to be huge i wouldn't if it meant having so much dead space about, its impracticable and somewhat a waste of good map space (nod nod) Lets add more shops then if we cant adjust map sizes ! And theres only one book store in Val the other two were either burned down or closed up. I like the idea of more shops then if its supposed to be such a thriving trade hub, atm it looks like a dying city thats become pretty poor and everyones closing up as soon as possible.

[dutchy]

herkles what on this should not be changed? cause you are waging a holy war lately against nearly everything premade and predone.

as for you new people the server is how it is if the staff wants to change it they will let us know, learn the server better and the reasons behind things why they are what they are.

and if you want somthing in the mod apply for dev and build it

[Miuo]

(banishes dutchy to watching the shopping network for all eternity) Bwahahahahah!

[Jadow_Valroth]

 

[Makeithome]

I'd maybe like to see some shacks in the Outskirts (meaning directly near the Lady's rest) and other buildings in a state worse than the slums. So the transition from city to outskirts to farmland is a bit smoother.. rather than currently, where there's somewhat of a foresty gap between the orphanage and isolated church/tavern combo. Like a sort of temporary slums for outlanders, as that's essentially what it's used as IC?

Just a rough idea, seeing right now I kind of have the idea it's just a church and tavern that don't quite connect the farmlands and city together IC.
(I think that might also kind of have been what the original poster ment?)

I'm going to give a bump and suggest this once more.

[Illy-Dan]

I'd maybe like to see some shacks in the Outskirts (meaning directly near the Lady's rest) and other buildings in a state worse than the slums. So the transition from city to outskirts to farmland is a bit smoother.. rather than currently, where there's somewhat of a foresty gap between the orphanage and isolated church/tavern combo. Like a sort of temporary slums for outlanders, as that's essentially what it's used as IC?

Just a rough idea, seeing right now I kind of have the idea it's just a church and tavern that don't quite connect the farmlands and city together IC.
(I think that might also kind of have been what the original poster ment?)

I'm going to give a bump and suggest this once more.

This ^