Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?

[respawnaholic]

Where can one buy scrolls/potions of cats grace and scrolls/potions of mage armor? Is there a merchant around that sells these? Are there places here that sell rogue items? (Rogue items meaning: Traps, poison, and other little doodads that would make a rogues life easier. Even if it's just RP items, which I love.)

I've been mostly scouting around with my rogue lately, not much adventuring (been in the sewer a few times). I've had some good RP with a few people so far, but I'm finding it hard to join up with people that are heading out to dungeons. Maybe I'm just slow at integrating myself into the server and getting involved with other players, I've always seemed to have had a hard time getting started on a new server (getting into RP with people and making "friends"). Any advice on that?

Theres a mage tower way up in the balinock mountains that sells scrolls...might be hard to get to at low levels. theres also a hut in Hazlan that is not far from the visanti caravan that sells some decent potions/ scrolls.

[Misted_Horror]

One thing I might suggest is. Ask around in-game. Handle most things ICly, and it will get you IC friends, IC contacts, etc. It'll push you in the rogueish step. While I did find some things out OOCly for my character, I found out most of what I currently know through IC means. Just RP a lot, and worry about grinding less and you will be right.

[stefan pall]

Rogues are hard to play, i totally agree, but their playstyle completely differs and is far more interesting than the Axe Cleaver Great Orc everyone seems to love simply cuz there's no thinking, just charging.

they make excellent scouts, they are very good support for a front fighter with their ranged weapons, they are much funnier to play with their skills to lockpick, pickpocket, appraise, you name it.

on the other hand, melee attacks depend on sneak to deal damage.

UMD + darkness/invisibility etc etc and you can dish out a lot of damage.
but since you're such a valuable support, you should find a tank to stick to, being PC or summon.

anyway, the playstyle is different than for any other character and it can surely work.

i rmmbr i played a rogue in campaigns and was very frustrated i couldnt kill an undead dragon - while my sister did it with a paladin with one healing hands; but the lack of power comes usually from the inability of the player to addapt, not from game mechanics.

one sentence: do some research.

[Corsair6500]

Yeah, what you said might get more people listening if you didn't basically insult everyone who likes to play a front-line fighter. There's actually a good bit of thought that goes into being an effective fighter.

[stefan pall]

haha yeah i agree, i started bad. was like 4am in the morning

[Misted_Horror]

Yeah and no, fighters/front-line tanks are pretty set with AC/Saves, do most of that on a rogue and make a mistake, there's typically bugger all AC if they want to sneak around, or it's just a case of "hey, he's 'got agro' time to deal some fully sick sneak attack damage". Again, once you know the server, I'd say play a rogue, but don't roll one as your first character. Spending two IRL days to hit level 3 from RP is tiring when you know a single crypt run puts you to level 3 and it takes roughly 10 minutes - and before anyone says anything, everyone loves levelling.

[Winter83]

On the lower levels (1-10) it is fairly easy to substitute a rogue. The skill DCs on traps and locks can be beaten by any char who have 1 point in open/disable and the +20 roll  added.
Damage is weak, Ab is terrible, and everything can spot them when sneaking. But as they progress [gasp] !!

Rogues start to shine over the teen levels. From 10. The dungeons DCs become more difficult, traps causing up to 160 dmg, a hobby trap-springer cannot handles those DCs. They start to become over 35ish.

(if you break it down....let's say a class have 1 cross class skill open lock, add 20 from the roll, 5 from item, and 2-3 from a dex modifiet = 28-32ish the max DC a non commited hobby rogue can do. Wizards also have the knock spell, but ignore mages. They are godlike anyone. Just don't bring any with you anywhere.  )

Their stealth jumps up by this time to around 40ish with items, which is pretty good to avoid monsters and most PCs.

Their sneak attack, taken they did not multiclass start to become more and more deadly as they progress and finally their ab crawls up to a level that they actually hit something.

I've been in many dungeons and while most can be done without a rogue (if you want to skip the goody tresures in the end), I have a hard time to find a dedicated one, since many higher level areas have nasty traps. Not those lousy spike traps you encounter on low level. But team zapping lighning, and fire! There you need a rogue. Not to mention secret entrances. Or having a good sneak who survives and brings help? Is that nothing? 
Not to mention! --> most RP situation with DMs rogue can shine as well with bluff/influence. Taken they invested anything in those. Or with pickpocket.

Consider, that in PnP rogues are clearly better due to the many circumstantial modifiers, only your imagination can halt it. The greates powers of a rogue is hard to be implemented mechanically, much like the same with rangers, where you need a DM with trackin / survival as it is not in the game. Most buildings are DM locked, you can't scale the walls, or do burglary, or eavesdrop on unsuspecting parties from the top of a tree, or from a barrel. You cannot plant evidence in the pocket of PCs neither can you remove evidence or important stuff, since pickpocket is very random.

But rogues still have a mechanical power just not on the lowbie levels.
Fighters shines at early levels, they can get their AC up to 34 under level 6 and no mob can hit them with that. But this AC won't get much better as they progress in levels, and they start to become more ineffective.
Clerics and mages they just too good at any level 

Even in PvP a rogue can buttkick a fighter above a certain level. They hide pretty well, and finally get an AB to beat the warrior AC.

So the OPs opening sentence looks like this : Rogue, Bad choice on early Levels.

[Misted_Horror]

Disagree with the max AC on a dedicated fighter, that can still haul ass;

10 + 11 (Chittin FP) + 2 (Ring of Prot +2), +2 (Amulet Natural Armour), 3 (From Tumble, 4 at very very high levels), 1 (From Mage Armour, dodge AC), 1 (Dodge AC, Ench Boots), 10 (Imp Exp), 4 (Haste, dodge bonus), 2 (stack 2 ontop of the ring, brooch of shielding, prot bonus), 5 (Towershield/Chittin), 2 (from Barkskin pots), 1 (+1 dodge AC, from dodge feat)

That's not even taking enchanted gear in to account.

Grand total: 54 AC, without the level 14-15 enchanted gear. Mix that with the fact that saves can be godly and yeah. Also note, that this is following a generic, easy as hell cookie-cutter build with plenty of feats to spare, high reflex and evasion, etc. With the high end gear, you're looking at around 58-62 AC. -- Also worth noting, the build that is rediculously easy to get, can have about +15 or so to all saving throws, add enchanted gear on to that, it's like Russia invading Georgia.

---

That's also the thing Winter, how many people do those dungeons at max spawn and seek out a proper rogue? Not many. Most of the time it's the same stuff getting hit, over and over again at 15-20% spawns. I agree, specialised rogues are good, assuming you have a DM around, or someone who is very open to letting slightly bad stuff happen to their character (not that common). Even then, the existing DCs at the moment are a joke, even without Vardo gear. It's why I'm glad they're implementing the new high-end dungeons.

Also, cross-classed Open Lock, let's take a look.

Take 20 + 1 + 10 (Lockpicks, easy to find if you know where to look), Knock Key (Knock, 50 charges, 1/use), Belt of Locksmith, Gloves, higher dex bonus = cats grace. Total = 37. That's assuming with just -one- skillpoint put in it. Being able to crack DC 70 locks as a level 9 rogue, no real use for it lol.

Also, disable device;

Cross-class, typically, 20 + 5 + 1 + 1 + 1 + 3 = 31, again, with only one rank.

--

Also, from past experience, PCs that can kill things with a bit of ease, typically get the most IG favour. It's very hard to do covert things ICly, as a rogue, unless you OOCly know the player.

[Winter83]

Luckily 90% of the warriors will never achieve such godly AC. Been on the server for a year at least and haven't seen half of those items.  Most I asked, unbuffed go around 32-36ish AC. The rest are the exception not the rule. But back on topic...

Locks need an expensive +10 pick to have them open. Some sure can afford it easily but most people prefer to drag a rogue around than to purchase a high-end lockpick. At least I always strive to drag a rogue. Sadly dedicated ones are hard to find. Partly because they make every attempt to conceal their skills, or alignment, or I just ICly don't get on well with shady types. But that does not mean I am not looking for one always.

Honestly the most uncommon hard-to-find classes are the AC tanks and dedicated rogues. I bump into many of the others, mostly druids and clerics. But so durn difficult to find a Tank and a support rogue! 

Give some love to those classes guys, they are crucial. Really!

[Misted_Horror]

+8-+10 lockpicks drop from loot-tables like candy in areas a 2 level 6 characters can clear just by blowing their noses. :/ No cost required, and they vendor for around 600gp+ with a decent appraise/gear. It's what I said in another post, that the -misc- gear is too easy to find, the dedicated stuff is *cusses* hard to find, but the high-end consumables drop like candy.

The other thing over-looked fighter tanks, imp. invis. Most of the time, that's as good as having godly AC. It's just bad that it's way too viable to have an insane powerbuild, that isn't a min-max build. Most of all the good builds you'll see, are all hybrids of a few primary classes. A pure fighter at level 20, has -nothing- on a fighter/rogue. With or without a party, the sheer viability that cross-classing gives is insane. It's the same with pure rogues, sure they can deal damage when they have the surprise, but the AI here is intelligent, and most (no offense, etc meant by this) PCs don't have decent tactics prepared for their fights (such as one monster in a doorway, at a time, using unarmed attack to provoke AoO's, get the monsters off casters/rogues so they can sneak). All in all, pure rogues are the most dependant on a decent party, tactics, etc and that's also where they get let down. Also note that, as soon as you mix fighter with rogue, those bonus feats roll in.

Just meaning to say that any hybrid with worse-than-average gear can acheive whatever a pure rogue can, and in a hybrids case, if they can see you, you can just KD-Sneak Attack them, or just polish off your awesome AC and go "lol". Rogues have a fairly bad BAB, sure, they get skills and -can- be good sneaks.. it's a shame that anyone who makes a character, takes 3 feats and has gear that otherwise makes no AC different, etc, equipped to liten/spot can see a rogue, fully decked out in stealth gear, unless they're an -ancient- character or have gear from an ancient character.

Also note, that most things at higher levels have damn good spot/listen, or they just have unnerfed True Seeing. I was talking on Skype with a mate and rolled a fighter/rogue as a joke to see how easy it was. Besides having the skills required by a pure rogue, having slightly less AB than a pure fighter, etc. He hauled more ass than I've seen most clerics do (clerics are not that strong, at all, throw a disjoiner at them).

[HellsPanda]

Steel plate only gives you +9, chitin is worse in most situations since its AC bonus is situational depending on damage

Your unlikely to have a +2 deflection ring [its also pointless, as you will be either buffed by a cleric or if your lucky enought have a brooch of shielding]
The natural AC amulet is pointless, as most chars will stock up on Barkskin potions.

the +10 ac, comes at the cost of 10 ab. Tumble is a cross class skill so your unlikely to want to waste 40 skill points to get it to rank 20 to get the full +4 [and your actually limited to 10 max for +2]

Parry can for fighter be maxed, which will result in +1-4 depending on ranks [unless you use a towershield, which will give you +4 AC unless you prefer the chitin, which is better from certain damage types.

Which will result for a 12 fighter in a flat AC of 10[base]+9[fullplate]+1[dex]+4[brooch]+3[parry]+1[tumble]+1[boots]=28 [or 38 with imp expertise] without haste or expertise

[Misted_Horror]

Exactly, that's a pure fighter though.

So, as you said let's work it out.

AC 10 + 10 Imp Exp + 1 Dodge Feat + 10 FP total + 4 Barkskin + 4 Brooch of Shielding + 3 tumble + 1 boots, +1 Mage Armour, + 4 Haste, + 4 Tower Shield = 52.

The fact is that pure classes are weak compared to hybrids, unlike in PnP. Consumables are also -way- too easy to get, in doing a dungeon, you can find up to 3 brooches at -once-. That's enough to keep someone stocked up for about a month. Mage Armour scrolls, again, cheap from the wizard tower. Haste potions, easy as hell to buy, or get the herbs for and get a herbalist buddy.

Now, for a pure fighter, take away tumble and mage armour. That's still can AC of 48, with ease, acheiveable at level 12. At level 7, you can achieve and AC of 47, although gold wise, you're looking at about AC 42-43.

[Winter83]

Exactly, that's a pure fighter though.

So, as you said let's work it out.

AC 10 + 10 Imp Exp + 1 Dodge Feat + 10 FP total + 4 Barkskin + 4 Brooch of Shielding + 3 tumble + 1 boots, +1 Mage Armour, + 4 Haste, + 4 Tower Shield = 52.

The fact is that pure classes are weak compared to hybrids, unlike in PnP. Consumables are also -way- too easy to get, in doing a dungeon, you can find up to 3 brooches at -once-. That's enough to keep someone stocked up for about a month. Mage Armour scrolls, again, cheap from the wizard tower. Haste potions, easy as hell to buy, or get the herbs for and get a herbalist buddy.

Now, for a pure fighter, take away tumble and mage armour. That's still can AC of 48, with ease, acheiveable at level 12. At level 7, you can achieve and AC of 47, although gold wise, you're looking at about AC 42-43.

Durn warriors! Wish they are forced to feel uncomfortable wearing their platemail all day long, so can backstabby them when in the bushes relieving themselves. [shakes fist]
 

Still note, we are talking about min-maxed AC builds. And my observation is most fighters are not like that. Also saw a few occasions where a lower level rogue steamrolled a fighter with ease. Trust me rogues are not so bad in PvP situations.

[Misted_Horror]

It's why a post was started, I believe about people taking time to take their armour on and off, etc. Gives players points where they can actually break out and attack. Also note, no one feels fatique, while resting, in -FULL PLATE- armour.

Also, those builds aren't min-maxxed, Fighter/Rogue is a typical hybrid, all it requires is the typical max strength, dex, int and con. Other stats are all at 10. Imo, that's not a min-maxxed build.

Yes, it is possible for a rogue to steamroll a fighter, but it comes down to players, with intelligence and PvP experience. The rogue who utilises grease scrolls, and entangle scrolls, also traps, etc, will beat a fighter -if- they have time to prepare, but most of the times, it comes down to the e-peen stroking of "right here right now", whilst the rogues going "crap crap crap" and the fighters got the goody goodies on his side.

EDIT: To get back on topic, it's why various people believe that rogue is a bad choice for starting PCs. I was lucky to ICly bluff Masame, and got accepted in to the Vardo at level 2 as my rogue. Most other rogues, new to the server will go through -hell- being a pure rogue, until they gear up (which, for rogues, is either some old-school OOC friends passing on gear OR, after a year or so of playing their rogue, which, by that time, will barely get dungeons because everyone runs the same, low danger/low spawn dungeons every 30minutes to an hour).

Again, once they get some indepth server experience, a rogues not too hard. But if you're a rogue, who likes being behind the scenes, it's the price you pay really, also note, all it takes, is one goody goody PC to step up, and end your pure rogue, or the good PCs merry band of hippies which, happens, alot.

I actually recall people going down in to the Drain and threatening everyone just to find one evil PC, because they knew game-mechanic wise, they'd be able to destroy anything that came up to them.

[queenofspades]

Granted, I'm new.. so I don't know much about how things go in terms of adventuring.

But I seccond a good portion of this thread, rogues are great because they can be just about whatever you want them to be.

Now just from a build point of view, I'm finding it interesting on my current PC how liberating it is to be able to have 2 more skills maxed because I'm not taking hide/MS.

Aiming for a more in your face trapper/trapspringer/mechanist/blow stuff up type rogue.

[Ophie Kitty]

Granted, I'm new.. so I don't know much about how things go in terms of adventuring.

But I seccond a good portion of this thread, rogues are great because they can be just about whatever you want them to be.

Now just from a build point of view, I'm finding it interesting on my current PC how liberating it is to be able to have 2 more skills maxed because I'm not taking hide/MS.

Aiming for a more in your face trapper/trapspringer/mechanist/blow stuff up type rogue.

This should be changed to: Sneak attacks aren't as useful, but rogues are still an amazing class, thread.

I've been playing a rogue lately, Its amazing.

[Cursed Ink]

I've been playing a rogue, and the RP is great, great fun running around picking locks and doing the traps but you do end up being a bit useless when a wizard just straight up out picks you. I suppose abit later on it will be different but I get the feeling rogues are mainly for disarming traps now party wise anyway.

[Smitehammer]

If open lock was cast-on-other that would solve a lot of the problems with wizards being the Muhammad Alis of thievery over rogues.  The wizard could cast it on the rogue - making the rogue all the more effectiverer.  Or they could make items of 'open lock' which actually work - instead of the broken 'skeleton key' which spawned with no charges and was simply removed from the loot table rather than being fixed.  Or maybe it was never removed and is still spawning with no charges to this day?  As a logician, I find such nonsensical scenarios to be rather irksome and disturbing of my chi.

[MadJKevlar]

There are Bone keys found, in all Barovian ML crypts, sullen woods, the Terg and likely more places on high spawns or just under high spawn which have knock on them.... i do not actually think Thieves have a problem competing with wizards at all and there are plenty of items around, cheep too that can aid thieves at a low cost at low level.

Does any one know if there are lock pick patterns available from any of the server smiths?

copper = +1 pick

Bronze = +2 pick

Iron = +3 pick

Steel = +4 pick could be a help to equipping low level rogues efficiently and give a smith a extra day to day market to move into.

[YouLitABonfire]

Does any one know if there are lock pick patterns available from any of the server smiths?

copper = +1 pick

Bronze = +2 pick

Iron = +3 pick

Steel = +4 pick could be a help to equipping low level rogues efficiently and give a smith a extra day to day market to move into.

yes please. this is an awesome idea MadJKevlar. Please suggest it in systems wishlist and someone impliment it because it rules.

[Miuo]

I agree, and while at the beginning it may seem like anyone with a couple points tossed in the skill makes the rouge useless once you start hitting high spawns or higher level areas you just cant compete with a rouges lock pick skill :3 And often desperately need a rouge for the loot or to progress farther into a area.

Or, for them to pick the lock to steal corpses of players to bring them back XD

In the above instances rouges have all the power and can often demand payment for their skills along with a cut of the loot

[Apocrypha]

Rogue, Best Choice for Any Player.

[Snowflame]

Never really understood why people kind of compare classes.

If you aren't a caster you are generally doing a lot of multiclassing. i'm not sure anyone who is actually playing rogue had the build plan of only going 20 rogue :V

[Elfric]

Never really understood why people kind of compare classes.

If you aren't a caster you are generally doing a lot of multiclassing. i'm not sure anyone who is actually playing rogue had the build plan of only going 20 rogue :V

[Raises hand] Adair Clark shall be the thievest of thieves.

[Snowflame]

Never really understood why people kind of compare classes.

If you aren't a caster you are generally doing a lot of multiclassing. i'm not sure anyone who is actually playing rogue had the build plan of only going 20 rogue :V

[Raises hand] Adair Clark shall be the thievest of thieves.

Why would you go 20 rogue? Other than RP there is no actual advantdge to that mechanics wise. if you are going for sneak attack dipping into assassin will get you more since you acquire more sneak attack. At some point rogue SA progresses slower, my brother isn't here. The kid knows the math and details behind that better than I do. I personally don't like SA builds and if I ever want to do anything with sneak attack it's more than likley a back up for my warrior characters for when they knockdown or i'm making a death attack wizard build trying to get like DC 33 DA so I can paralyze people a lot.