Author Topic: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?  (Read 21377 times)

Inviktus

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #25 on: February 04, 2011, 02:16:05 PM »
Better not to put points in craft traps at all. I wish there could be a warning somewhere on the site or Ingame which skills arent used in the game so new players wont put points in it.

Along those lines, I have found that since you get level 2 for free, you should never buy skills at first level.  Save all your points to spend at 2nd, since it's much easier to re-level and fix if you learn something new or the rules get changed like they did with parry.

Kagetora

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #26 on: February 24, 2011, 11:43:20 PM »
Some thread-omancy here, but I had a follow-up question to the OP, and some of the comments here.

IS Hide/Move Silently even implemented on the server?   :P

I mean, seriously...My Rogue/Ranger is only level 4/1 (5 total), but I have H/MS maxxed, with bonuses for the backgrounds I took, the Stealthy feat, an excellent DEX, a bonus to both from equipment, AND a +4 compentency check outdoors for being a Ranger.  I can't sneak past ANYTHING that is hostile, and I am pushing a 20-21 skill outdoors.  Wolves, beetles, rats, dire rats, EVERYTHING sees through it an comes at me instantly, as soon as I get within 3/4ths of a screen or so.  I know I can sneak around a lot of the PC's (since Spot and Listen aren't class skills for everyone, including the Cleric and Wizard I also have), but never being able to sneak past an NPC is getting old fast.

Any thoughts on this matter?

HellsPanda

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #27 on: February 25, 2011, 02:22:05 AM »
its the way the engine works, you need to have atleast 20 over the enemy to be sure to sneak past. So unfortunatly you wont be a great stealther til atleast level 10 with full equipment

Badelaire

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #28 on: February 25, 2011, 07:03:55 AM »
The hardest part for any rogue in any server is getting started. Rogues are the most adaptable and versatile of classes with any number of builds that are effective. They're also the least loot dependent class based on their array of skills and the fact a dagger sneak attack can whip away as much as a buffed bastard sword. That being said no rogue will find themself in for an easy ride alone because of the comparatively low ab, hp, frequency of sneak attack immune enemies and the need for things like Hector's Wary Tred, Wraith Belt, Shadowed Armour, Cloak of Silence if you're focused on the stealth route but I'v found that's the case anywhere.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 07:14:59 AM by Badelaire »

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #29 on: February 25, 2011, 07:12:58 AM »

I have a Bow and a Rapier with him at the moment, and I've been mainly using the Rapier for Dungeons, the bow I tend to use for Minking. I'd really like to get a +1 Rapier or Short Sword ASAP so he can actually go into the Crypts to earn Knuckles to buy Potions. (Those JuJu Zombies being invincible without a Magic weapon)


Just one more ranting that I've been making for a little long time: you won't find a +1 rapier. A +1 shortsword is possible, but more or less expensive. You will, more or less easily, however, find a Masterwork handaxe.

Find a white stag composite longbow.
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Emomina

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #30 on: February 25, 2011, 07:53:28 AM »
Couple of protips: (from the player of a level 15 rogue)

In the lowest levels, the most debilitating weakness is the fortitude save, causing loss of what few HPs you do have to CON decreasing attacks such as disease.
 :arrow: Use your ring and necklace spots for Fortitude boosting items.  two +1 fort rings and a curative amulet or scarab of protection. all of these items are common and not outrageously priced.

Do not bother with undead dungeons except in groups that could handle it anyway. In those such cases you are better off being archery support and trap and locksmith
 :arrow:  Include yourself in groups that are going after bounties, taking a look at the wererats under Vallaki, looking into the Thouls cave.  Any group will have their damage per round greatly increased by the arrows you hail in support.

Don't worry that your stealth is not successful now, consider it a tool that will become useful later.
 :arrow: Seriously, you are more or less reliant upon your innate abilities without nice items and your value on rolls can barely top 35 which just is not good enough against most things.
 If you must stealth, then augment yourself with cats grace (potion or scroll), one with the land and camouflage (both scrolls)

Use Mage Armor
 :arrow: This is the single most useful scroll for a rogue at low level. Its the equivalent of wearing a ring of protection, an amulet of natural armor, and having +1 leather on. It also has an additional dodge AC and frees up your jewelry spots for more useful items.

Use whatever weapon you want, and carry magic weapon items with you at all times
 :arrow: Among the cheapest are the polishing cloths, but if you get to know some alchemist they are likely to produce the magical varnish +1s as practice.  They are only really useful to people that carry around unechanted weapons, so you could concievably find them affordable and at in good quantity.

Know your enemy
 :arrow:  Your goal as a rogue is to be doing as many sneak attacks as you can. You need to end your fights quickly so that they can not whittle your health down by attrition. A very effective tool is the thunderstones and tanglefoot bags that are available from NPC merchants.  You can decimate the ranks of bandits or thouls by stunning them (if their Fortitude save is bad) or entangle them (if their Reflex is bad). While they are stunned or entangled your damage includes sneak attack damage.

Know your allies
 :arrow:  This goes for any character class, but its sort of especially true with rogues.  If you find yourself not being utilized properly in a group, then say so IC. Suggest tactics that could help you contribute more.  Your allies should KD enemies so that you can finish them off quickly, and they should always set you up to flank if you are melee.  If you do not melee, be mindful of the strengths and weaknesses of the frontliners, and shoot your arrows within 30 feet range to an engaged enemy and help the weaker member(s) against their foe.

If you notice the theme here, its that Rogues are very adaptable, and a joy to play if you enjoy collecting nicknacks. However, they require a lot more planning beforehand to have the right tool for the job.  None of this is as good as just befriending a buffing spellcaster, they can keep you in fights you had no idea you could manage. But Rogues are similar to mages. They start slow but they finish big. my 15th level rogue basically one shots 70% of the enemies that are not undead at this point.
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Threefold

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2011, 07:56:14 AM »
The hardest part for any rogue in any server is getting started. Rogues are the most adaptable and versatile of classes with any number of builds that are effective. They're also the least loot dependent class based on their array of skills and the fact a dagger sneak attack can whip away as much as a buffed bastard sword.

I always found Rogues to be the most loot dependant. Past fullplate and your sword/shield for a fighter or Cleric, that's all they really need. Wizards just need to pick up a scroll every so often to supplement their spellbooks.

But Rogues are always needing lockpicks, traps, arrows of different kinds, poisons, varnishes, spell scrolls, potions, etc etc. They're loot dependant because half their power comes from their ability to use consumable items and burn through them quickly.

Also, above post is sagely and awesome.

Badelaire

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2011, 02:31:04 PM »
I have fond memories of a level 8 Tredow with no arcane skills at that time blitzing entire dungeons with Reiko and Niko due to our mad skillz and tactics. I suppose I meant least loot specific, their versatilty stems from being adaptable but any class is going to need loot to do anything at all.

HellsPanda

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #33 on: February 25, 2011, 02:49:35 PM »
well Tred that is because we not only used tactics, but also had a caster that used magic primarily on others. A fully buffed rogue is a dreadfull thing to get in the path off

Glade

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #34 on: March 20, 2011, 06:25:49 AM »
I recently played the Rogue.. And for the setting, considering the encounters are mostly undead, it can be quite hard. Though with that, comes traps and lock-picking, which is fundamental in a dungeon.

k_moustakas

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #35 on: March 20, 2011, 08:44:19 AM »
Try seeing a tank cleric buffing an archer rogue for how easy dungeons can be ;) sneak attack for the win
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Taty

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #36 on: March 20, 2011, 09:52:55 AM »
As someone recently said to me, rogue is hard mode. I love the class but you are pretty useles dungeoning alone, Suz can't even do dungeons a cleric half her level could. That said I love the skill selection and stealth certainly has its advantages. Granted I got most of my levels from rp , it would not be easy to do it through dungeoning, especially at low level, but it can be very rewarding.

~Taty~

BalorVale

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #37 on: February 27, 2012, 02:51:10 PM »
Follow the Wisdom of the Dungeon masters..... If Hit dice low... Find friends... Never split party or die *Buddhist Bow*

EberronBruce

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #38 on: February 27, 2012, 03:40:27 PM »
Excellent post. I play a fighter mostly. Rogues are essential to have at times. Stealth is highly needed as well as the trapsmithing and lockpicking. This module has more than plenty of opportunities for scouts. Yes, find groups. Sometimes easier said than done.

Misted_Horror

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #39 on: February 27, 2012, 11:13:06 PM »
Honestly, coming from the person who plays Hrunt. The -only- reason I have the gear I have is through IC talking/RPing. If you learn that your Rogue can't do dungeons, instead, have them stealth around, gather intel, actually trade it in with people. There are some very cool unique or rare things that people will trade for just because it is genuinely interesting.

Level 2 with no items (Spot): 16
Level 2 with no items (Hide): 20

Now keep in mind Spot/Listen checks get 1d20 bonus. This is why playing a rogue sucks. Automatically, if the spotter is carrying a torch, they get a Spot bonus. If the spotter is moving, and the rogue is, then the spotter 'stops' for even a split second, he gets a +10 to his spot. The in-game mechanics for Stealth do more damage to the rogues, and always have, as opposed to servers. That being said however, buy a few invis pots, activate stealth, watch people who you know can't see you, or, if invisible sit far enough away from them that they can't see you, but you can hear them.

hugolino

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2012, 11:47:37 PM »
I'm a dissonant voice here: IMHO rogue is the worst class to go for a newbie in the server...

My opinio is: unless you're ok on depending on a party, go multiclass.

I'd echo this.

Juice

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #41 on: February 29, 2012, 12:55:58 AM »
Where would be the best places for rouges to level, as in take down  living monsters so that the crits and sneak attacks are used to their full advantage?

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Rave

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #42 on: February 29, 2012, 01:38:31 AM »
Where would be the best places for rouges to level, as in take down  living monsters so that the crits and sneak attacks are used to their full advantage?

There are lots of bounties for living bandits, and werewolves that are prone to sneak attacks. They're good for lower levels, plus they can add great fun to form parties and search lost ruins.

There is also the beetles cave I believe.

If all else fails, just hunt Garda. I hear each corpse has nifty loot.....

Juice

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #43 on: February 29, 2012, 02:38:49 AM »

There are lots of bounties for living bandits, and werewolves that are prone to sneak attacks. They're good for lower levels, plus they can add great fun to form parties and search lost ruins.

There is also the beetles cave I believe.

If all else fails, just hunt Garda. I hear each corpse has nifty loot.....

Hunting garda my be a possibility and im to high level to recieve exp from bandits or much else in vallaki any suggestions for a level 8-12 rouge.

Solomon Burke - Knight of the Dawn
Vasile Mikovich - Tigan Straight Outa Vallaki
Straven Crowe -  Hes somewhere around here.....

BalorVale

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #44 on: February 29, 2012, 04:21:47 AM »
Where would be the best places for rouges to level, as in take down  living monsters so that the crits and sneak attacks are used to their full advantage?

There are lots of bounties for living bandits, and werewolves that are prone to sneak attacks. They're good for lower levels, plus they can add great fun to form parties and search lost ruins.

There is also the beetles cave I believe.

If all else fails, just hunt Garda. I hear each corpse has nifty loot.....
Ive killed hundreds of Garda, All they have are arrows and torches.

HellsPanda

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #45 on: February 29, 2012, 04:28:49 AM »
The best way to level a Rogue, is RP and in a good party

APorg

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #46 on: February 29, 2012, 08:56:22 AM »
I don't think it hasn't been mentioned yet, but Rogues are probably one of the stronger PvP classes, if that takes your fancy; sneak attack may be useless against undead, but the only PCs who are undead are MPCs... and it's hard for most other classes to pierce Rogue stealth.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 08:58:16 AM by aprogressivist »
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kanedellesk

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #47 on: February 29, 2012, 09:33:46 AM »
I think it all depends on what you're trying to do with the character. If you are interested in having great role play and adding to the server atmosphere, rogue is a great class due to the diversity it presents. A rogue can be a cutpurse thug from the streets (Julia Colds, a greatly played character from yesteryear), or a savvy businessman/noble. I think Armande LeBarthe (also from yesteryear) best exemplified the latter example, but that's just my opinion. There is also every type of character in between those two extremes. I'd say rogue is a perfectly viable class to start with, so long as you don't want to be a dungeon solo'ing kill machine.

Head Trauma

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #48 on: February 29, 2012, 11:32:19 AM »
Where can one buy scrolls/potions of cats grace and scrolls/potions of mage armor? Is there a merchant around that sells these? Are there places here that sell rogue items? (Rogue items meaning: Traps, poison, and other little doodads that would make a rogues life easier. Even if it's just RP items, which I love.)

I've been mostly scouting around with my rogue lately, not much adventuring (been in the sewer a few times). I've had some good RP with a few people so far, but I'm finding it hard to join up with people that are heading out to dungeons. Maybe I'm just slow at integrating myself into the server and getting involved with other players, I've always seemed to have had a hard time getting started on a new server (getting into RP with people and making "friends"). Any advice on that?

BalorVale

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #49 on: February 29, 2012, 03:24:20 PM »
Where can one buy scrolls/potions of cats grace and scrolls/potions of mage armor? Is there a merchant around that sells these? Are there places here that sell rogue items? (Rogue items meaning: Traps, poison, and other little doodads that would make a rogues life easier. Even if it's just RP items, which I love.)

I've been mostly scouting around with my rogue lately, not much adventuring (been in the sewer a few times). I've had some good RP with a few people so far, but I'm finding it hard to join up with people that are heading out to dungeons. Maybe I'm just slow at integrating myself into the server and getting involved with other players, I've always seemed to have had a hard time getting started on a new server (getting into RP with people and making "friends"). Any advice on that?
Contact me ICly, My Characters name is Laura Lechance. I will direct you OOCly and ICly to all your rogue-like desires. If I am not on, Send me a PM I will gladly help you get started if you don't know where to start.
« Last Edit: February 29, 2012, 07:57:42 PM by BalorVale »