Author Topic: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?  (Read 21304 times)

orphan81

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Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« on: December 25, 2010, 02:15:38 AM »
Hi folks, I mentioned in one other post how I'm new to the game here and new to the Server.

Quick Background: I'm not new to DnD in PnP form, or to MMO's/Videogames for that matter, or Online RP. I'm a veteran of all of them for the most part.

Now that being said, I'am New to NWN. In fact, I bought the game entirely because it was on Sale at GOG and I heard about the Ravenloft PW. Being a huge Ravenloft fan I was sold, bought the game downloaded it, added the haks and boom here we are.

Now the last week or so has been abit of a learning experience, figuring out how to actually play the game, and what didn't translate well from PnP or from other Videogames, to NWN.

The Character I'm playing, is my traditional favorite Class, "The Rogue". I love them concept wise for the RP, for getting to sneak around and pick locks, and for the plethora of skills they get.

Now that being said, while I've had some great RP here and there, actually playing the game is a very frustrating excercise. Oh, I'm not being dumb and taking on things I can't take on, but it's the realization that...
A.) The Majority of monsters are immune to my Crits and Sneak Attack Damage.
B.) I found out the Rogue XP for opening locks and doors was removed.
C.) I read a thread which more or less spelled out how sneaking around isn't worth doing, as the number of ways to counter it are simply to high.
D.) None of the NPC's carry Gold or Items on them, so when I attempt to make alittle exta scratch from Pick Pocketing, the result seems to always be nothing. Also, apparently nobody keeps anything valuable in their homes, so sneaking in to attempt and again, steal a few things for Gold, reveals nothing worth while ever.

So here I'am, 4th level now..and the current state of the character.
400 Gold
No Magic weapons
KO'ed 4 times total.
1 Actual Death. (2nd level, and I just decided to take the XP hit and self Rez, as I was also still learning the game)

Now it's not entirely bad, but I will say.. The character RP wise is a blast to play.. but Function wise is frustrating as hell! He can't hit the broad side of a barn, can't sneak past anyone (And it seems if he stays pure Rogue will never be able to given the plethora of Listen bonus items) Doesn't add anything to Parties, and does little Damage to enemys. My own caution and well general knowledge of Videogames has kept the character from Dying over and over, but it means most of the Time he just sits around doing nothing, unless he gets lucky and gets to tag along with a Group for some XP. (And he ussually doesn't get anything useful with the groups who bring him along)

Now their are exceptions.
He went along with a Monk Friend to the HobGoblin Cave, and picked the lock boxes to get the cool treasures, and could sneak attack the HobGoblins which was neat. Though it was his Monk Friend who was kicking all the Ass, keeping him alive with her Heal spells and the like.

The Question I ask though is, did I Saddle myself with a hard choice by playing the Rogue? Would it have been easier instead to roll up a Barbarian, or a Cleric? Should I just start Multi-Classing him into a Fighter so he can actually take on abit more?

Or is there some magic "Clearing" he's going to eventually break through and be awesome?

I'd like to hear from some others who play Rogues. Is it all about the Love of being a Rogue, or is there some advice I can get for playing the Character, and get to actually explore and see this totally awesome Server?

Thanks in Advance.

-Orphan player of the Half-Elf Rogue, "Keln Vagabond".
"Through all this horror my cat stalked unperturbed. Once I saw him monstrously perched atop a mountain of bones, and wondered at the secrets that might lie behind his yellow eyes."
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Emomina

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #1 on: December 25, 2010, 02:20:34 AM »
Short answer:     No, not a bad choice. 
 If you find a group that could use a rogue, then its very much the same usefulness you find with any character class.
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Kendric98

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #2 on: December 25, 2010, 02:59:21 AM »
Short answer:     No, not a bad choice. 
 If you find a group that could use a rogue, then its very much the same usefulness you find with any character class.
Almost all classes take some lockpick or just smash the boxes open. It is my opinion rogues get 99% of there xp from rp on the server, its why i made my level 10 rogue a guarda to increase rp xp.

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Emomina

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #3 on: December 25, 2010, 03:19:51 AM »
um, its not lockpicking that Rogues offer a party,  its their amazing damage.
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Bad_Bud

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #4 on: December 25, 2010, 03:39:23 AM »
There are very few pure rogues.  Most give up and multiclass so they can do more on their own, but I prefer having pure rogues in my party.

As for breaking and entering, I don't think that works very well in a persistent world... or every peasant's house would just be robbed dry all the time (though if you did want to do such, I bet you could get a DM to work with you at some point).  So the rogue experience is more limited to dungeons and less to any "Thief" style gameplay.

For sneaking in general, there are plenty of characters who cannot detect sneaks, but you do have to spend the time discovering who can and can't.

k_moustakas

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #5 on: December 25, 2010, 04:30:42 AM »
There is no such thing as a bad class or a bad build. What's important is, to know what you are trying to do. And of course I am only talking about the powerbuilding aspects of the class. Any and every class/build has awesome things to role play about. I've actually started a rogue build and he's also level four and I find it very entertaining to play him.

What's important to remember, is that unless you're an excellent nwn player this is a very hard server to solo. That is not to say impossible, just really hard. And stealthing is far from impossible, just don't expect a level 4 rogue to stand next to a level 10 character and hear his whisper.

Make friends, form parties, go out and have fun.
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Springer

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #6 on: December 25, 2010, 05:16:50 AM »
My first character was also a pure rogue. From my impressions the main reason parties would need a rogue is not for locks, but for disabling traps.
About their strengths. Stealth could work, but you need to keep a distance from those who you stalk.
Sneak attacks are also quite powerfull against living enemies and while  there are lot of undead, there lot of living enemies aswell. Rogues also have Use magic device, which could help rogue a lot and a party he is travelling with.
ALso if you are playing  a pure  rogue you should never solo dungeons here.
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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2010, 06:16:48 AM »
use magic device is the best skill in the game. And you can solo dungeons, you just have to be really good at it. Although it doesn't make much sense too, rogues are the ultimate party characters.
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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2010, 06:23:42 AM »
You just need to be persistant and stick with your character, PotM is a hard module for any class, but in particular wizards, sorcerer, and rogues as they are specialist classes, but there will be a point where you start to come into your own but for rogues I cant say what that is. One impression I do get is that a Jack of All Trades Rogue build in Prisoners of the Mist (PotM) are going to be quite poor, am I correct in thinking that? You should probably specialise in a few areas. Neverwinter Nights has some hidden mechanics that you don't get feedback on and aren't very well known, so you should probably hit the official bioware boards and search the internet for tips on rogues.

Open Lock - Don't concentrate too much on open lock, put a few skiill points in it, but don't go overboard because the Knock spell and lock picking tools will jump up your skills temporarily and get you the same results. Loot in PotM isn't high magic so your not going to find amazing items in insanely hard locked chests, so being the best lock pick on the server isn't going to be massively rewarding, unless of course you get all your kicks from roleplaying it.

Traps - The default trap crafting for Neverwinter Nights doesn't really work here as well as it will in other modules. So only put a few skill points in craft trap as you will only be able to make weak traps anyway, I think there might be plans for a proper craft trap system being worked into the module in the future, so you should put skill points into search and recover trap instead, you can buy basic traps but I don't think you can buy strong ones, so if you want a stronger trap you have to recover them from dungeons.

That's all the advice I can give at the moment as rogues aren't really my thing.

Telkar

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2010, 07:29:00 AM »
D.) None of the NPC's carry Gold or Items on them, so when I attempt to make alittle exta scratch from Pick Pocketing, the result seems to always be nothing. Also, apparently nobody keeps anything valuable in their homes, so sneaking in to attempt and again, steal a few things for Gold, reveals nothing worth while ever.

Pickpocket PCs ;) ...if their players give you a green light on that action in tells beforehand. If you succeed, you got your loot, if you fail...you got a hell of a RP experience coming.  :mrgreen:

Springer

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2010, 07:33:54 AM »
In my opinion pick pocket doesnt worth the trouble. Rules are so strict on it that it is almost impossible to rp a thief here.
Quote
Open Lock - Don't concentrate too much on open lock, put a few skiill points in it, but don't go overboard because the Knock spell and lock picking tools will jump up your skills temporarily and get you the same results. Loot in PotM isn't high magic so your not going to find amazing items in insanely hard locked chests, so being the best lock pick on the server isn't going to be massively rewarding, unless of course you get all your kicks from roleplaying it.
 
I dont agree. Rogues have lots of skill points anyway and lockpicking tools arent cheap here and could end when they are needed the most.
Quote
Traps - The default trap crafting for Neverwinter Nights doesn't really work here as well as it will in other modules. So only put a few skill points in craft trap as you will only be able to make weak traps anyway, I think there might be plans for a proper craft trap system being worked into the module in the future, so you should put skill points into search and recover trap instead, you can buy basic traps but I don't think you can buy strong ones, so if you want a stronger trap you have to recover them from dungeons.
Better not to put points in craft traps at all. I wish there could be a warning somewhere on the site or Ingame which skills arent used in the game so new players wont put points in it.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 07:47:25 AM by Springer »
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Telkar

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2010, 08:12:23 AM »
In my opinion pick pocket doesnt worth the trouble. Rules are so strict on it that it is almost impossible to rp a thief here.

The only rules for pickpocket here is that it falls under the general PvP rules, which just means you need a green light from the one you pickpocket oocly to ensure "positive experience of all sides" (and allow the pickpocketed, if he detects it, to respond with hostility if he so chooses). I've managed to pickpocket three different people now in a week with my rogue that way. This is what I got:

-Ancient dire bear leather patch
-25gp
-6 potions of freedom (that's a catch!)

It's worth the thrill and RP for me, and who knows, maybe I'll snatch something 'really' valuable sometime. Overall it's not a super effective moneymaking method (but could be, like in lottery).
« Last Edit: December 25, 2010, 08:16:48 AM by Telkar »

herkles

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2010, 10:27:35 AM »
I had a pure rogue, till rozsa multi-classed to be a ranger >.> but all her major attacks were done when she was like a level 3 rogue :P

anyways, some tips for new people.

 :arrow: remember RP XP, this is how for the most part all my characters level up through rp with others. I rarely dungeon so I love the rp xp script.

 :arrow: you can get money from doing delivery at the where-house in vallaki.

 :arrow: look to factions/groups, depending on what type of 'rogue' your character is their are some factions/groups you could join.

 :arrow: remember to group up together, the server is not a solo friendly server

 :arrow: don't be afraid to ask questions

I do hope that helps :)


Bad_Bud

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2010, 12:08:28 PM »
Open Lock - Don't concentrate too much on open lock, put a few skiill points in it, but don't go overboard because the Knock spell and lock picking tools will jump up your skills temporarily and get you the same results. Loot in PotM isn't high magic so your not going to find amazing items in insanely hard locked chests, so being the best lock pick on the server isn't going to be massively rewarding, unless of course you get all your kicks from roleplaying it.

This is not correct.  Open lock is important.

Kenkaku

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2010, 02:59:50 PM »
Open Lock - Don't concentrate too much on open lock, put a few skiill points in it, but don't go overboard because the Knock spell and lock picking tools will jump up your skills temporarily and get you the same results. Loot in PotM isn't high magic so your not going to find amazing items in insanely hard locked chests, so being the best lock pick on the server isn't going to be massively rewarding, unless of course you get all your kicks from roleplaying it.

This is not correct.  Open lock is important.

As a fellow rogue player, I agree, Open Lock is your friend. Quite often i've found myself picking locks whose DCs were.... Absurd, to say the least. I've seen locks go as high as the low 40's and I have yet to go into any high-level areas.

Search and Disable Device are handy to have as well as traps can be a devastating due to the surplus of them there seems to be. Also, I believe this is the key ability most parties look for when it comes to Rogues. I've had the 'pleasure' of running into some of the higher end traps and they're.... Not nice. This is also about the only way you'll be able to make use of Set Trap without purchasing a ton of them. Though, the Recovering DC's are no easier than sneaking past a Bat.

I will say this, Rogues are very difficult to level early on and probably won't find much use til lvl 6 or higher, but they become very useful and almost necessary later on. As was suggested before, Specialize in some field, don't expect to be a Jack of all Trades. That doesn't work here.
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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #15 on: December 25, 2010, 05:16:12 PM »
A.) The Majority of monsters are immune to my Crits and Sneak Attack Damage.
Find ones that aren't. For every dungeon around with sneak attack immune guys, there's ones with non-crit immune mobs. I've played through low level as a Paladin and Rogue, and my Paladin rarely went anywhere that wasn't full of undead (Yay, Blessed Weapon!), whilst my Rogue never went to those places and went to all the ones with crittable foes, like the sewers, the bandits, the beetles, the hobgoblins, the werewolves, etc etc.
Quote
B.) I found out the Rogue XP for opening locks and doors was removed.
You still get the same amount of XP for killing things. If a fighter, a cleric, a mage and a rogue go into a dungeon together, at the same level, with no ECL, they'll come out having gained the same amount of XP. The fighter gains no bonus XP for taking hits, the cleric gains  no XP for healing, the mage none for buffing. So in the end it makes sense that the rogue dosen't get bonus stuff for doing his role.
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C.) I read a thread which more or less spelled out how sneaking around isn't worth doing, as the number of ways to counter it are simply to high.
A class with Spot or Listen as a class skill, who maxes ranks in it, and gets all the specific gear to boost their detection, and is similar level to you, will be able to detect you.
Once you've boosted your skill pretty high, that's the ends. Maybe, if they really stretch, someone with cross-class detection ranks, feats in it, and the best gear will be able to spot you without it as a class skill if you're not at your peak sneak ability.

Sneaking is still perfectly feasible. You'll be spotted by expert spotters, and avoid noob spotters. You'll never be able to be invisible to everyone, but that would be unbalanced.[/quote]

Quote
D.) None of the NPC's carry Gold or Items on them, so when I attempt to make alittle exta scratch from Pick Pocketing, the result seems to always be nothing. Also, apparently nobody keeps anything valuable in their homes, so sneaking in to attempt and again, steal a few things for Gold, reveals nothing worth while ever.

If you want to do a break-in, you'd really need to inform a DM about it. As for pickpocketing, NPC's don't carry junk, afaik, no. Pickpocketing players is alright though. Usually the rules I've seen used are you sneak up on them, then roll PP vs. Spot, and d100 if you win for how much you nicked. I had someone yank stuff from me like that. Fair play.

Quote
So here I'am, 4th level now..and the current state of the character.
400 Gold
No Magic weapons
KO'ed 4 times total.
1 Actual Death. (2nd level, and I just decided to take the XP hit and self Rez, as I was also still learning the game)

One actual death at 4th level isn't bad. To earn money better, it's herbing, ratting or minking, with herbing being far more profitable but requiring player interaction. Get yourself some nice Steel weapons and some sweet leathers, and they'll be your best friends through early levels.


Best advice I can give you is repeat the experience with the Monk. Find a tank, let them wade in ahead of you, and then go to town on everything's spine. At level 4 you're only doing 2d6, which isn't massively powerful compared to some beefcake with a sword, but once you get further up (say, level 9) you'll be doing 5d6 three times per round if you're using a bow, and 4x/round if you're dual-wielding.

You're not going to see much of some dungeons, simply because they don't suit rogues, just like Paladins are going to be favouring dungeons with undead. Rogues are perfectly viable, but if anything, are the most teamwork-focused class, and you need to have them willing to ask for or take on help.


Are you using a bow or melee? A bow-wielding rogue can be very useful just floating outside of range for anyone to retaliate and pinging their massively powerful sneak attack arrows in. Melee guys get more raw damage usually, though.

Or, just make a cleric and buffroll through everything.  :mrgreen:


Dhark

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2010, 05:57:12 PM »
Invest in a good bow , draw out single enemies , try the hit & run tactic , or take point blank shot feat.

The parry skill will help your poor AC , read up a bit on the changes , or ask about.

Rogues are by nature support classes & getting to that treasure without smashing everything with crow-bar will make any party glad they brought you along.

The more dangerous dungeons have traps that can wipe out a party, people will come flocking to you later on in life.

Bariovia is a poor nation, if you want to make coin from picking pockets I'd head to Port-a-lucine ..gems & gold aplenty in those fop's pockets  : ;) ...just beware the docks during the dark hours .

Every class is in for a hard time if they try to solo while hunting, none more so than rogues, but if you can find a group (yes I know its not easy in such a paranoid enviroment) life will be a great deal easier.

orphan81

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2010, 06:20:53 PM »
Hey Guys, I just wanted to thank everyone here for the kind words and advice.

I understand it's a difficult server, to reflect the Setting Material, and I'm cool with this. Being new and not knowing a whole lot about how things worked (And learning how to play NWN on top of it all) was abit disenhearting at first, but this advice is good to hear, and I think I'm going to stick it out with Keln, and keep him Pure Rogue.

I have a Bow and a Rapier with him at the moment, and I've been mainly using the Rapier for Dungeons, the bow I tend to use for Minking. I'd really like to get a +1 Rapier or Short Sword ASAP so he can actually go into the Crypts to earn Knuckles to buy Potions. (Those JuJu Zombies being invincible without a Magic weapon)

I have NO friggin clue how to do crafting of any kind. I've attempted to look on the NWN wiki and can't find a tutorial at all. I tried going to the Leather worker in Valakia and he said put the Hides in the Curing tank to cure them.. But putting them in seems to do nothing, and I don't know what patterns are used for, or well.. so you understand, I have no idea how to actually craft  :P I'm sure if I did, the game would be alittle easier, and I'll probably figure it out in time.

Over all though, thanks for the Advice everyone, it's helpeful and encouraging to hear. I may have to pester a DM about seeing if I can do a "Cat Burglary" Job with Keln sometime. As for PickPocketing PC's, I'm just alittle to uncomfortable taking things from other Players they've earned, but that's just me. I'll most likely just let the Skill gather dust now and improve other things instead. :)
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Springer

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2010, 06:23:40 PM »
The best weapon for rogue against juju's is light crossbow called Pompillu folly. Better not to fight them in melee on low levels at all, especially with a rogue.
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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2010, 06:43:52 PM »
I have NO friggin clue how to do crafting of any kind. I've attempted to look on the NWN wiki and can't find a tutorial at all. I tried going to the Leather worker in Valakia and he said put the Hides in the Curing tank to cure them.. But putting them in seems to do nothing, and I don't know what patterns are used for, or well.. so you understand, I have no idea how to actually craft  :P I'm sure if I did, the game would be alittle easier, and I'll probably figure it out in time.

Crafting info for this server is in the rest menu.

Curing hides requires one hide item and one bottle of Tanin in the tub. Then you must equip a curing knife and use it on the tub.
This goes for mot everything else, too. To boil the cured hide, put the patch in the cauldron with a beeswax and use the boiling hook on it (the hook isn't equippable, just use it). Smelting you throw the ore int he smelter and use the bellows on it. SMithing equip the smithing hammer and use it on the ingots, handles, leather patches, etc the template requires. Or just on an ingot for bronze or iron horseshoes.

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Telkar

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2010, 07:07:34 PM »
I have NO friggin clue how to do crafting of any kind. I've attempted to look on the NWN wiki and can't find a tutorial at all. I tried going to the Leather worker in Valakia and he said put the Hides in the Curing tank to cure them.. But putting them in seems to do nothing, and I don't know what patterns are used for, or well.. so you understand, I have no idea how to actually craft  :P I'm sure if I did, the game would be alittle easier, and I'll probably figure it out in time.

Crafting info for this server is in the rest menu.

Curing hides requires one hide item and one bottle of Tanin in the tub. Then you must equip a curing knife and use it on the tub.
This goes for mot everything else, too. To boil the cured hide, put the patch in the cauldron with a beeswax and use the boiling hook on it (the hook isn't equippable, just use it). Smelting you throw the ore int he smelter and use the bellows on it. SMithing equip the smithing hammer and use it on the ingots, handles, leather patches, etc the template requires. Or just on an ingot for bronze or iron horseshoes.

Just to add to that, there is an effective search form you can use to search the forum here to research pretty much anything, including crafting. NWNwiki won't help you since the crafting system here is not that of standard NWN but unique to the server.

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2010, 09:14:41 PM »
The best weapon for rogue against juju's is light crossbow called Pompillu folly. Better not to fight them in melee on low levels at all, especially with a rogue.

Yep. A Pomp's Folly generally costs about 200-300g from a merchant, and is what you need to get past the Juju's pesky DR.

But according to the list, they're CR 5.0, so you should get pretty good XP at low level for picking them off with run and gunning.

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2010, 10:39:37 PM »
Crafting skills are a great way to add some focus & goals for your character & a good way to bide you time when people are not about, but they can suck up a lot of your spare cash & it will take months to be able to craft anything worth using unless you are truely dedicated.

Ask any merchant PC that drop their wares in the out skirts for decent leathers & weapons (few good rapiers about that I know of, plenty of short swords though) or post an In Character advert here

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2011, 03:49:42 PM »
I just wish rogues could get rewarded with experience for opening locks, and disabling traps. Only ones set by the server of course, otherwise you could farm spees with your friends. lol.

Also it seems you don't exp for killing things with a trap despite having to.. plan out, and learn.. from experience that you can kill things using traps. lol. They also un-invis you when they go off, which.. is fun, I guess.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2011, 04:13:27 PM by Geiger »

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Re: Rogue, Bad choice for Starting Players?
« Reply #24 on: February 03, 2011, 07:15:38 PM »
I'm a dissonant voice here: IMHO rogue is the worst class to go for a newbie in the server:

Few hitpoint, strong item based, few damage, ranged weapons are crappy, and to use you skill points you'll need to survive.

Most of the "rogues" in the server are a 15/5 something rogue and, if you want a suggestion, it pays A LOT more:two levels in rogue (to get the most of your skill points) and then go more or less "saving" skill points from your base class. Maximize tumble and UMD. Put some ranks in open lock (usually less than 10: take 20, +4 dex, +3 buff items, up to +10 thives tools).

Rogue may be a nice class to have in your party, but it is dammn nerfed: stealth is nerfed, most things are immune to sneak, most things need +1 weapons, and you WILL depend upon UMD (scrolls and weapons).

And UMD has a roll I haven't yet understood, but it IS HARD! I have 18 UMD with my bard/AA/rogue (IMO, bard is better than rogue in the setting) and some level 2 spells havd DC of 23 UMD. You have a 25% of chance of failing using the scroll with 18 F****** ranks in UMD.

My opinio is: unless you're ok on depending on a party, go multiclass.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier