Author Topic: Mind blank spells - any uses?  (Read 15985 times)

Telkar

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #75 on: December 09, 2010, 11:12:07 AM »
The best source of neutral enemies would be Animals/Magical Beasts and Fey. 
My preferred way to increase the usefulness of Mindblank is more enemies that PfE and PfG do not help against.

Yey, suggestion. :)

I'm gonna shoot a question on that. How do you justify that only LN/N/CN aligned mind probers need to be warded against with mind blank, and not those mind probers of other alignments?

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #76 on: December 09, 2010, 02:31:07 PM »
Perhaps should be pointed out that the changes suggested in mind blank to make it more useful made, so far, are nerfind PfA.

Hey, if there were a level 1, hour/level spell that gave immunity to death spells and ability drain, as well as +2 AC and Saves, people would likely be saying Death Ward was too weak too.

BTW, just pointing out: the +2 AC becomes useless after, dunno, level 4, since it is deflection modifier and doesn't stack.

Magic Weapon becomes useless after around level 5, since you'll probably get a magic weapon by then if you keep hunting cash. Level 1 spells aren't particularly meant to have use up to level 15+.

Anyway, for Paladins and Bards, it's still giving +1 AC unless they've found a +2 Deflection AC item, which I know I've not seen. For Clerics it becomes useless, yes, because they have Shield of Faith, but consider other classes in this. Sure they could use Brooches of Shielding, but they're consumable and cost a bit and hence not a great thing to be using constantly.

tzaeru

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #77 on: December 09, 2010, 02:44:39 PM »
Perhaps should be pointed out that the changes suggested in mind blank to make it more useful made, so far, are nerfind PfA.

Hey, if there were a level 1, hour/level spell that gave immunity to death spells and ability drain, as well as +2 AC and Saves, people would likely be saying Death Ward was too weak too.

BTW, just pointing out: the +2 AC becomes useless after, dunno, level 4, since it is deflection modifier and doesn't stack.

Magic Weapon becomes useless after around level 5, since you'll probably get a magic weapon by then if you keep hunting cash. Level 1 spells aren't particularly meant to have use up to level 15+.

Anyway, for Paladins and Bards, it's still giving +1 AC unless they've found a +2 Deflection AC item, which I know I've not seen. For Clerics it becomes useless, yes, because they have Shield of Faith, but consider other classes in this. Sure they could use Brooches of Shielding, but they're consumable and cost a bit and hence not a great thing to be using constantly.

And with a +2 saving throw it'd still be quite useful spell. I'm all for level 1 spells being useful at late levels. Level 1 being superior in majority of scenarios however is a bit off, imho.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #78 on: December 09, 2010, 02:47:54 PM »
Perhaps should be pointed out that the changes suggested in mind blank to make it more useful made, so far, are nerfind PfA.

Hey, if there were a level 1, hour/level spell that gave immunity to death spells and ability drain, as well as +2 AC and Saves, people would likely be saying Death Ward was too weak too.

BTW, just pointing out: the +2 AC becomes useless after, dunno, level 4, since it is deflection modifier and doesn't stack.

Magic Weapon becomes useless after around level 5, since you'll probably get a magic weapon by then if you keep hunting cash. Level 1 spells aren't particularly meant to have use up to level 15+.

Anyway, for Paladins and Bards, it's still giving +1 AC unless they've found a +2 Deflection AC item, which I know I've not seen. For Clerics it becomes useless, yes, because they have Shield of Faith, but consider other classes in this. Sure they could use Brooches of Shielding, but they're consumable and cost a bit and hence not a great thing to be using constantly.

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Aran

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #79 on: December 09, 2010, 03:05:34 PM »
deflection:

cloak of savage
cloak of the high forest
brooch of shielding

and then all the spells

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Emomina

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #80 on: December 09, 2010, 03:17:09 PM »
I'm gonna shoot a question on that. How do you justify that only LN/N/CN aligned mind probers need to be warded against with mind blank, and not those mind probers of other alignments?

PfA is THE spell for warding against Mind Probers,  not in NWN, in DnD.  Its only useful before danger. You have to know danger is coming.
Its being way overstated how often people are running around with PfE,  I can not remember the last time I had a character cast it on themself, either from firepipe or otherwise.   I would need a damn good reason to waste a charge of firepipe.

Is mind probing roleplay the goal? If that is the case its a total moot point, the duration on any spell will be way shorter than any scene, so by default it will require mutauly consent for the scene to work.

Mind Blank is a wizard spell,  a sorcerer would be much less apt to take it because of limited number of spells.   In PnP, the Wizard strengths of adaptability and utility come through more, because there is a larger spell list. Mind Blank is an awesome spell, I have no idea why people are acting like its not.  It protects against ALL alignments, will REMOVE any mind affect and ITS AREA OF AFFECT.  Its a damn strong spell. A 15+ wizard in a Perfidus party would be a nice thing to have around in the Malthoor room.
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tzaeru

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #81 on: December 09, 2010, 04:20:34 PM »
Having played a now level 19 wizard for 3.5 years at least, I can confidently say that I've only once in his entire lifespan needed (Lesser) Mind Blank and that was in Demonologists. It blocked the stunning bolts of G. Fiendish Aberrations. Nor is this wizard's mind-affecting spells the reason why I dislike PfA; The wizard's neutral, so it doesn't touch him to begin with.

Then, I don't dungeon very much (never been in Perfidus for example) so I wouldn't really know.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2010, 04:22:27 PM by tzaeru »

Minstrel

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #82 on: December 09, 2010, 05:08:00 PM »
deflection:

cloak of savage
cloak of the high forest
brooch of shielding

and then all the spells

Last I remember cloak of the savage had a pretty hefty downside. -5 Will save, I think. Being able to use PfA to remove that downside would be handy in itself.

Though if you're using PfA, you not only void the good point of that cloak, you also void the bad point of it as well, lawl.

Minstrel

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #83 on: December 09, 2010, 05:10:21 PM »
I'm gonna shoot a question on that. How do you justify that only LN/N/CN aligned mind probers need to be warded against with mind blank, and not those mind probers of other alignments?

PfA is THE spell for warding against Mind Probers,  not in NWN, in DnD.  Its only useful before danger. You have to know danger is coming.
Its being way overstated how often people are running around with PfE,  I can not remember the last time I had a character cast it on themself, either from firepipe or otherwise.   I would need a damn good reason to waste a charge of firepipe.

I seem to remember seeing people regularly pop it up immediately after resting.

Heck, who can blame then? I can't see a reason NOT to, apart from of course peeving off the natives.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #84 on: December 09, 2010, 05:11:23 PM »
deflection:

cloak of savage
cloak of the high forest
brooch of shielding

and then all the spells

Last I remember cloak of the savage had a pretty hefty downside. -5 Will save, I think. Being able to use PfA to remove that downside would be handy in itself.

Though if you're using PfA, you not only void the good point of that cloak, you also void the bad point of it as well, lawl.

More or less: you void the good point of the cloak (+2) but take the downside in the saving throws of the other alignments... and if you take a dispels... pfffff...
Oh, and it is a -4
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #85 on: December 09, 2010, 05:12:00 PM »
I'm gonna shoot a question on that. How do you justify that only LN/N/CN aligned mind probers need to be warded against with mind blank, and not those mind probers of other alignments?

PfA is THE spell for warding against Mind Probers,  not in NWN, in DnD.  Its only useful before danger. You have to know danger is coming.
Its being way overstated how often people are running around with PfE,  I can not remember the last time I had a character cast it on themself, either from firepipe or otherwise.   I would need a damn good reason to waste a charge of firepipe.

I seem to remember seeing people regularly pop it up immediately after resting.

Heck, who can blame then? I can't see a reason NOT to, apart from of course peeving off the natives.

Personally, I feel naked when not warded.
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Telkar

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #86 on: December 09, 2010, 06:18:10 PM »
I'm gonna shoot a question on that. How do you justify that only LN/N/CN aligned mind probers need to be warded against with mind blank, and not those mind probers of other alignments?

PfA is THE spell for warding against Mind Probers,  not in NWN, in DnD.  Its only useful before danger. You have to know danger is coming.
Its being way overstated how often people are running around with PfE,  I can not remember the last time I had a character cast it on themself, either from firepipe or otherwise.   I would need a damn good reason to waste a charge of firepipe.

Is mind probing roleplay the goal? If that is the case its a total moot point, the duration on any spell will be way shorter than any scene, so by default it will require mutauly consent for the scene to work.

Mind Blank is a wizard spell,  a sorcerer would be much less apt to take it because of limited number of spells.   In PnP, the Wizard strengths of adaptability and utility come through more, because there is a larger spell list. Mind Blank is an awesome spell, I have no idea why people are acting like its not.  It protects against ALL alignments, will REMOVE any mind affect and ITS AREA OF AFFECT.  Its a damn strong spell. A 15+ wizard in a Perfidus party would be a nice thing to have around in the Malthoor room.

*cough* ...erm, sorry. I don't believe that answered my question Emomina.  :|

But another question related to my first one and that answer.

You say "PfA is THE spell for warding against Mind Probers" ...does that mean you would like to see the PfA ward equally as much from mind spells cast by LN/N/CN aligned things, basically all mind spells cast by all alignments. If not, which is what I suspect the answer to be, we go back to my original question:

I'm gonna shoot a question on that. How do you justify that only LN/N/CN aligned mind probers need to be warded against with mind blank, and not those mind probers of other alignments?

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2010, 06:24:31 PM »
I'm gonna shoot a question on that. How do you justify that only LN/N/CN aligned mind probers need to be warded against with mind blank, and not those mind probers of other alignments?

PfA is THE spell for warding against Mind Probers,  not in NWN, in DnD.  Its only useful before danger. You have to know danger is coming.
Its being way overstated how often people are running around with PfE,  I can not remember the last time I had a character cast it on themself, either from firepipe or otherwise.   I would need a damn good reason to waste a charge of firepipe.

Is mind probing roleplay the goal? If that is the case its a total moot point, the duration on any spell will be way shorter than any scene, so by default it will require mutauly consent for the scene to work.

Mind Blank is a wizard spell,  a sorcerer would be much less apt to take it because of limited number of spells.   In PnP, the Wizard strengths of adaptability and utility come through more, because there is a larger spell list. Mind Blank is an awesome spell, I have no idea why people are acting like its not.  It protects against ALL alignments, will REMOVE any mind affect and ITS AREA OF AFFECT.  Its a damn strong spell. A 15+ wizard in a Perfidus party would be a nice thing to have around in the Malthoor room.

*cough* ...erm, sorry. I don't believe that answered my question Emomina.  :|

But another question related to my first one and that answer.

You say "PfA is THE spell for warding against Mind Probers" ...does that mean you would like to see the PfA ward equally as much from mind spells cast by LN/N/CN aligned things, basically all mind spells cast by all alignments. If not, which is what I suspect the answer to be, we go back to my original question:

I'm gonna shoot a question on that. How do you justify that only LN/N/CN aligned mind probers need to be warded against with mind blank, and not those mind probers of other alignments?

1) A wizard did it.
2) Engine limitations.
3) low budget.
4) Neutral is not an alignment, is the absence of alignment.
5) Nobody expects to combat neutrality.
6) The dark powers want so.

Well, Id's suggest then, that, if you are sou worried about it,  the developers change the spell so we can cast it against neutral aligned foes too, if that seems to be a so big problem.

Probably it is not possible, so you (plural again) will ask to nerf it anyway.

Personaly, I'm just against nerfing it, and I can survive the absence of PfN.
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Emomina

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2010, 08:55:35 PM »
You are linking things that do not need to be linked Telkar.
PfA is a strong spell, with a limitation that it protects against a chosen alignment and is a proactive measure and has no reactive utility.

I am talking about DnD, not about NWN or about PotM. The spell is not anymore powerful than it was designed to be with the exception of a longer duration and the fact that NWN treats fear auras as mind affects. The thing that gives people a misconception about the spell is that in PvM especially in a Ravenloft setting, the utility of the spell is increased by the near unanimous nature of all enemies falling under one alignment.

That's the spell, its not overly powerful, its that its limitations do not come to pass as often as intended in this environment.

It has nothing to do with Mindblank. Mindblank is a mage spell, it is not on the Cleric,Bard or Paladin spell lists. It is a superior spell to PfA in every way except duration. If Mindblank was the level 1 spell it would truly be broken.  The fact that neutral aligned spells are covered by Mindblank is a strength of the spell, not a limitation. It is actually a spell that makes Wizards more valuable to a party at the high levels. In every way I prefer a Sorcerer in a party at higher levels, but a Wizard has more specialized spells such as Mindblank.

My opinion is that neither spell needs to be changed. Perhaps decreasing PfA to turns/ level is the best one. It would change the dynamics between the spells that protect against mind affecting spells. Increasing instances of Neutral spellcasters would increase instances where the limitations of PfA come to pass. Its the lack of PfAs limitations being exploited much more than any problem with Mindblank that has fed the misconceptions.
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