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Author Topic: Mind blank spells - any uses?  (Read 15984 times)

Telkar

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Mind blank spells - any uses?
« on: December 06, 2010, 03:38:22 PM »
Can anybody tell me whether they use these spells at all? If so, for what?

I don't know of anyone who uses them, nor do I see a reason for myself to use them, having protection from alignment. So what I'm hoping is to either find some uses for them, or if that's not possible, figure a way that would make them usable.

There's a discussion on Protection from Alignment here just as a side note.

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2010, 03:41:35 PM »
I adore this spell and usually have one prepared, always, if I don't have access to scrolls of it.

HellsPanda

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #2 on: December 06, 2010, 03:57:57 PM »



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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #3 on: December 06, 2010, 04:04:26 PM »
Karas Jeslyn used to dominate hypnotize people. Before he became obviously evil, Zach always had mind blank scrolls on hand at all times. Just in case. You can't always rely on protection from evil, when that which may harm you is not necessarily evil.

tzaeru

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #4 on: December 06, 2010, 04:08:33 PM »
Protection from Alignment is a ridicilous spell, corporated into NWN only so that people wouldn't cry when they get owned in the original campaigns.

No level 1 spell should give immunity against such a vast amount of spells from all spell levels.

In DnD, it practically gives immunity against charm and dominate person rather than every mind-affecting spell there is.

Ophie Kitty

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #5 on: December 06, 2010, 04:08:57 PM »
Anyways, Protection from Alignment only does a specific alignment, and you can't have both alignments up at the same time. It also doesn't remove effects also in place.. Lesser Mind Blank in particular, is a longer-duration clarity that doesn't deal damage for removing effects. Mind Blank, is particularly effective against large AOE mindspells, such as Mindfog, Colorspray, Confusion, and similar effects.

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2010, 04:11:21 PM »
Protection from Alignment is a ridicilous spell, corporated into NWN only so that people wouldn't cry when they get owned in the original campaigns.

No level 1 spell should give immunity against such a vast amount of spells from all spell levels.

In DnD, it practically gives immunity against charm and dominate person rather than every mind-affecting spell there is.

Agreed. It even gave protection against summoned creatured to further its ridiculouslness.

Emomina

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2010, 06:11:52 PM »
Its because Pf Aligment is a level 1 spell and nearly universal amongst class that all subsequent Mind Affecting spells are balanced. When implementing "win" spells you can do so and still maintain balance by providing a readily available deterrent. This 3.x philosophy was even extended to the herbalism craft on PotM in cases like See Invisibility being a lower DC than Invisibility.

All those spells that PfE protects against are absolutely devastatingly effective if not countered. And because PfE is easily acquired and utilized, a person caught without it iswithout excuse.

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2010, 06:41:08 PM »
Anyways, Protection from Alignment only does a specific alignment, and you can't have both alignments up at the same time. It also doesn't remove effects also in place.. Lesser Mind Blank in particular, is a longer-duration clarity that doesn't deal damage for removing effects. Mind Blank, is particularly effective against large AOE mindspells, such as Mindfog, Colorspray, Confusion, and similar effects.

Actually unless something has changed on the server i am not away of you can have both version of the spells up at the same time. It gives you bonus to all alighnments if you have both up. Well at least it did before something on the server changed.


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HellsPanda

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2010, 06:47:47 PM »
they will never effect the three neutral alignments

Telkar

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #10 on: December 06, 2010, 06:59:28 PM »
So it's almost exclusively used for the following?

-removing mind effects on people.
-warding against casters of LN, N and CN alignments.

So there's some uses for specific times. I have to say I'm rather nostalgic when I think about my time on another server, where you had to have a wizard or a sorcerer along that could cast mind blank for encounters like an old green dragon's fear aura. Wish it had more uses than the above, as that narrow scope has made the spell nonexistent in my experience here.

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #11 on: December 06, 2010, 07:35:16 PM »
So it's almost exclusively used for the following?

-removing mind effects on people.
-warding against casters of LN, N and CN alignments.

So there's some uses for specific times. I have to say I'm rather nostalgic when I think about my time on another server, where you had to have a wizard or a sorcerer along that could cast mind blank for encounters like an old green dragon's fear aura. Wish it had more uses than the above, as that narrow scope has made the spell nonexistent in my experience here.

Well, I'd definitely like to think a majority of wizard/sorcerer spells are situational like this. Knowing when to have it at the ready is the secret to a successful mage. :)

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2010, 12:31:22 AM »
Personally I'd approve of bringing Protection from Alignment in line with the P&P version.

On a pointless side note, one of the more entertaining P&P Ravenloft spell changes is that Protection from Evil doesn't work against people/monsters you don't know are evil, but that obviously isn't implementable.

engelfire

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2010, 02:10:02 AM »
I for one would love to see PfA spells changed to more suit their level. For such a low level spell it has quite powerfull effect, and seriously everyone in potm has a possibility to get such spells or get them casted on you.

Would it be possible to change the spells so that PfA spells would protect from lower level mind affecting spells, then lesser mind blank would protect from mid level mind affecting spells, and mind blank would protect from higher level mind affecting spells?

For me it makes no sense that lv2 caster can make himself immune against lv40 casters mindaffecting spells, like weird for example. Awesome spell but daaamn, completely useless becouse everyone in potm has PfA all the time on.
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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #14 on: December 07, 2010, 02:55:41 AM »
it is fairly easy to dispel PfE/G

Aran

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #15 on: December 07, 2010, 03:03:22 AM »
belive me  there are places on the server where the creatures are not evil and will kill you in a sec for trespassing :-)

we all had protection from evil up and were quickly feared and killed  :)

i for one have started stocking mind blanks/lesser (dreamcatchers)

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Telkar

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #16 on: December 07, 2010, 07:47:26 AM »
Would it be possible to change the spells so that PfA spells would protect from lower level mind affecting spells, then lesser mind blank would protect from mid level mind affecting spells, and mind blank would protect from higher level mind affecting spells?

Interesting idea. It could offer some compromise. I think lesser mind blank and mind blank should protect from all mind affecting spells all the time though. Mind blank is better than the lesser in that it bestows the spell on all the people in the area it is cast.

All those spells that PfE protects against are absolutely devastatingly effective if not countered. And because PfE is easily acquired and utilized, a person caught without it iswithout excuse.

I think some of those mind spells, especially quite high level ones, should be devastatingly effective and uncounterable by a common lvl 1 spell.

Let's say PfA would protect against domination, charm and mind spells up to lvl 4. That would negate a vast amount of common mind spells, most notably confusion and fear at lvl 4. Lesser mind blank then comes into play, as it is a lvl 5 spell, which would protect from mind spells in the above lvls. That would protect against hold monster, power word stun, mass charm and weird.

I can see those spells are so few it would hardly be worth the trouble. So I'd go with the PnP version of PfA instead if we'd go that route to make the mind blank spells usable. Some consider it too hardcore as a 9 page argument in the PfA thread I linked proves. I'd like to see that put up to vote though, just to see how many are with and against.

Not sure what other routes to go...maybe heightened will save? Not much comes to 'mind' for those spells but that which concerns the 'mind.'  :roll: ...

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #17 on: December 07, 2010, 08:02:14 AM »
Would it be possible to change the spells so that PfA spells would protect from lower level mind affecting spells, then lesser mind blank would protect from mid level mind affecting spells, and mind blank would protect from higher level mind affecting spells?

Interesting idea. It could offer some compromise. I think lesser mind blank and mind blank should protect from all mind affecting spells all the time though. Mind blank is better than the lesser in that it bestows the spell on all the people in the area it is cast.

All those spells that PfE protects against are absolutely devastatingly effective if not countered. And because PfE is easily acquired and utilized, a person caught without it iswithout excuse.

I think some of those mind spells, especially quite high level ones, should be devastatingly effective and uncounterable by a common lvl 1 spell.

Let's say PfA would protect against domination, charm and mind spells up to lvl 4. That would negate a vast amount of common mind spells, most notably confusion and fear at lvl 4. Lesser mind blank then comes into play, as it is a lvl 5 spell, which would protect from mind spells in the above lvls. That would protect against hold monster, power word stun, mass charm and weird.

I can see those spells are so few it would hardly be worth the trouble. So I'd go with the PnP version of PfA instead if we'd go that route to make the mind blank spells usable. Some consider it too hardcore as a 9 page argument in the PfA thread I linked proves. I'd like to see that put up to vote though, just to see how many are with and against.

Not sure what other routes to go...maybe heightened will save? Not much comes to 'mind' for those spells but that which concerns the 'mind.'  :roll: ...

Remember that the level one spell doesn't protect against all spells, just the ones casted by a PC with the chosen alignment.
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Telkar

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #18 on: December 07, 2010, 08:07:08 AM »
Oh! I got an idea!

How about making PfA increase the will save vs spells cast by evil/good? Let's take a typical 4th lvl fighter. If that spell is cast on him, then he gains say... +10 on his will save vs those spells. He would typically have 1 to begin with, so 11 will vs spells cast by evil. Hold person made by an evil 6 lvl wizard with spell focus enchantment would have about 10+4+2+5 = 21 DC. Instead of 5% chance of resisting, he has 50% chance of resisting. Then there are higher will people that could be immune to hold person that way.

Let's take a scenario with mind blank too. There's a party of lvl 12 people, one wizard, one fighter and a rogue. The fighter and rogue here might have about 6 will, 16 with PfA. The wizard with his spellcraft and high will might have 14 will vs spells, 24 with PfA. Perhaps they are up against some vampires, their dominating gaze not working since the PfA would negate that along with the +10 will. Then a vampire sorceress comes along maybe and starts throwing high DC confusion or fear spells...now would be better to have mind blank to completely negate those.

So Protection from Alignment change proposition: +10 will vs evil/good, immunity to domination and charm.

How's that?

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #19 on: December 07, 2010, 08:19:21 AM »
Oh! I got an idea!

How about making PfA increase the will save vs spells cast by evil/good? Let's take a typical 4th lvl fighter. If that spell is cast on him, then he gains say... +10 on his will save vs those spells. He would typically have 1 to begin with, so 11 will vs spells cast by evil. Hold person made by an evil 6 lvl wizard with spell focus enchantment would have about 10+4+2+5 = 21 DC. Instead of 5% chance of resisting, he has 50% chance of resisting. Then there are higher will people that could be immune to hold person that way.

Let's take a scenario with mind blank too. There's a party of lvl 12 people, one wizard, one fighter and a rogue. The fighter and rogue here might have about 6 will, 16 with PfA. The wizard with his spellcraft and high will might have 14 will vs spells, 24 with PfA. Perhaps they are up against some vampires, their dominating gaze not working since the PfA would negate that along with the +10 will. Then a vampire sorceress comes along maybe and starts throwing high DC confusion or fear spells...now would be better to have mind blank to completely negate those.

So Protection from Alignment change proposition: +10 will vs evil/good, immunity to domination and charm.

How's that?

As I said, I dislike.

PfA is an accessible spell that protect from some devastating spell effects, given the right circumstances are reached.

Its because Pf Aligment is a level 1 spell and nearly universal amongst class that all subsequent Mind Affecting spells are balanced. When implementing "win" spells you can do so and still maintain balance by providing a readily available deterrent. This 3.x philosophy was even extended to the herbalism craft on PotM in cases like See Invisibility being a lower DC than Invisibility.

All those spells that PfE protects against are absolutely devastatingly effective if not countered. And because PfE is easily acquired and utilized, a person caught without it is without excuse.

Balanced.
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Ophie Kitty

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #20 on: December 07, 2010, 09:08:17 AM »
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/protectionFromEvil.htm
Quote
Protection from Evil
Abjuration [Good]
Level: Clr 1, Good 1, Pal 1, Sor/Wiz 1
Components: V, S, M/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Touch
Target: Creature touched
Duration: 1 min./level (D)
Saving Throw: Will negates (harmless)
Spell Resistance:   No; see text

As much as I hate playing the "this is how it is in pen and paper,, and this is how NWN screwed things up.." I've always wondered why several spells were nerfed to better match 3.5 rules, but not the rest of them. The main reasons Mind Blank was so amazing in tabletop is because it lasts 24 hours, immune to mind affecting spells, scrying, and even attempts to perceive information from an individual via Wish spells. Protection from Alignment only lasted a minute per level.

Telkar

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #21 on: December 07, 2010, 09:22:09 AM »
As I said, I dislike.

PfA is an accessible spell that protect from some devastating spell effects, given the right circumstances are reached.

Its because Pf Aligment is a level 1 spell and nearly universal amongst class that all subsequent Mind Affecting spells are balanced. When implementing "win" spells you can do so and still maintain balance by providing a readily available deterrent. This 3.x philosophy was even extended to the herbalism craft on PotM in cases like See Invisibility being a lower DC than Invisibility.

All those spells that PfE protects against are absolutely devastatingly effective if not countered. And because PfE is easily acquired and utilized, a person caught without it is without excuse.

Balanced.


Okay Anarco. If you are on the "no thanks" side of this all, a discussion for any compromise will be impossible.

You and Emomina see a purpose in the PfA spell in that it "protects from some devastating spell effects." What spell effects are that? More importantly, how could PfA be changed so that those spell effects you talk about can be warded against and in the way make the mind blank spells more usable?

Should the PfA protect from Weird for example? Fear auras? Something like fear auras could well be protected from with +10 will as they're usually not that high a DC. The PfA could have +12 will, +15 or +20 will...it's all about the scope of those "devastating spell effects" what the + would be.

For now, I just need "devastating spell effects" to be defined.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #22 on: December 07, 2010, 09:45:14 AM »
As I said, I dislike.

PfA is an accessible spell that protect from some devastating spell effects, given the right circumstances are reached.

Its because Pf Aligment is a level 1 spell and nearly universal amongst class that all subsequent Mind Affecting spells are balanced. When implementing "win" spells you can do so and still maintain balance by providing a readily available deterrent. This 3.x philosophy was even extended to the herbalism craft on PotM in cases like See Invisibility being a lower DC than Invisibility.

All those spells that PfE protects against are absolutely devastatingly effective if not countered. And because PfE is easily acquired and utilized, a person caught without it is without excuse.

Balanced.


Okay Anarco. If you are on the "no thanks" side of this all, a discussion for any compromise will be impossible.

You and Emomina see a purpose in the PfA spell in that it "protects from some devastating spell effects." What spell effects are that? More importantly, how could PfA be changed so that those spell effects you talk about can be warded against and in the way make the mind blank spells more usable?

Should the PfA protect from Weird for example? Fear auras? Something like fear auras could well be protected from with +10 will as they're usually not that high a DC. The PfA could have +12 will, +15 or +20 will...it's all about the scope of those "devastating spell effects" what the + would be.

For now, I just need "devastating spell effects" to be defined.

To me, devastating spell effects are those ones who allow a one hit win. Of course we have one hit wins, many, to be honest: Veil of the Banshee, power word, finger of death, implosion, etc, etc, etc.

Weird is a strong spell? Yes, it is: it is area of effect and affects everyone there. PfE makes it useless? I doubt that: 1) you have to pay attention to the alignment. 2) In a party, will everyone be protected?

But the main question is you have alternatives and only have to plan what to to. Weird is one of the worst good spells: you need a Will AND Fortitude saves, making it almost useless against casters (will) and melee (fortitude).

So, PfA doesn't makes casters useless as some people seem to claim. Besides, all you need is a well placed dispell (or greater dispelling, or mordenkaninens disjunction) to clean the target.

On the other hand: Is it corret to make a level 1 spell (scare) be enough to kill one fighter? All you have to do is cast, attack, rinse and repeat.

The fact is that PfA is REALLY nice in the begining of the game, but helps, in the later stages, to avoid some effects, what is total and completely counter-measured, just like the thread regarding hamatullas spaming dispel showed us.
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HellsPanda

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #23 on: December 07, 2010, 09:45:30 AM »
the most devestating effect would be any Fear effect at all. Confusion, the Trilloch's death knell etc

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Mind blank spells - any uses?
« Reply #24 on: December 07, 2010, 09:47:31 AM »
the most devestating effect would be any Fear effect at all. Confusion, the Trilloch's death knell etc

Trilloch's death knell (assuming you're talking about the effect that kills you when you kill a trilloch) doesn't get stopped by PfA.
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