Author Topic: Implosion!  (Read 10905 times)

Telkar

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1693
Implosion!
« on: December 04, 2010, 06:19:12 PM »
I got caught in this nefarious spell for the first time here, and I was pleasantly freaked off!  :shock:

Death ward doesn't ward against it, and this particular implosion spell had 38DC to resist. So for most people, a spell mantle is the only way to go.

Not that I don't like how scary that is, I'm just wondering whether stripping the spell of the +3 DC would be feasible, since it's more in line with PnP 3.5. That would make the DC 35 in that particular instance.

Mailbox0000

  • Guest
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2010, 06:35:49 PM »

 I got hit by DC 30's from Balors. Wot's all 'is bout a 38, eh!?

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2010, 07:44:33 PM »
I got caught in this nefarious spell for the first time here, and I was pleasantly freaked off!  :shock:

Death ward doesn't ward against it, and this particular implosion spell had 38DC to resist. So for most people, a spell mantle is the only way to go.

Not that I don't like how scary that is, I'm just wondering whether stripping the spell of the +3 DC would be feasible, since it's more in line with PnP 3.5. That would make the DC 35 in that particular instance.

I'm fairly certain that although the spell is extraordinary and cannot be stopped by death ward, I do believe the +6 vs death amulet does offer protection, and +1 for every 5 spellcraft ranks, and protection from spells...

If you know it's coming, you can protect against it, and since only one boss casts implosion with a DC this high... it should be okay.

Emomina

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2645
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2010, 07:49:17 PM »
I like it. its one of the few DCs that some of my characters can really fear. 

Hotep's DCs are up there too.
I survived the Blue Water Inn Massacre and all I got was this t-shirt.

Telkar

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #4 on: December 04, 2010, 08:50:00 PM »
I got caught in this nefarious spell for the first time here, and I was pleasantly freaked off!  :shock:

Death ward doesn't ward against it, and this particular implosion spell had 38DC to resist. So for most people, a spell mantle is the only way to go.

Not that I don't like how scary that is, I'm just wondering whether stripping the spell of the +3 DC would be feasible, since it's more in line with PnP 3.5. That would make the DC 35 in that particular instance.

I'm fairly certain that although the spell is extraordinary and cannot be stopped by death ward, I do believe the +6 vs death amulet does offer protection, and +1 for every 5 spellcraft ranks, and protection from spells...

If you know it's coming, you can protect against it, and since only one boss casts implosion with a DC this high... it should be okay.

Oh yes...I was sure to use death ward amulet and endurance potion and stuff the second time, but by then the spawn was gone. -_- ...oh well, some other time.

Just thought I should point out the +3 dc the default spell has, since it has been removed on some other servers to better match PnP. I don't really mind either way. 35 or 38, there isn't much difference, both are hardcore and I like it. xD

tzaeru

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1057
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2010, 09:00:44 PM »
Personally it's one of the spells I slightly dislike in it's current state; Not because of it's power in itself, but due to it's effect to the relation between arcane and divine spellcaster. There's zero ways a wizard - supposedly offensive caster whereas cleric is defensive - can have any of his insta-win spells (all of which are subject to Death Ward or Mind-Affecting Immunity except Flesh to Stone, which is lower level (so smaller save) and has no DC bonus) at same DCs that Implosion is. So, cleric can buff himself stronger, has more spell slots, and also happens to have the most powerful insta-kill spell in game.

DC 35 is still plausible for a level 17 cleric. Even with Protection from Spells not many chars got much hopes in saving that.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2010, 09:03:14 PM by tzaeru »

Bad_Bud

  • Developers
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 4576
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2010, 10:10:59 PM »
Yeah, I personally never understood the +3.  I liked it back when it could kill the caster.  That was hardcore.

Minstrel

  • Official Mascot of the
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2040
  • Cat in the Hat
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2010, 10:26:14 PM »
Yeah, I personally never understood the +3.  I liked it back when it could kill the caster.  That was hardcore.

Increase it's DC by 10.

Make it kill the caster.

Suddenly spell is far more interesting.... Martydom, anyone?

Norture

  • Still noobin' it up.
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 3516
  • ???
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2010, 10:52:46 PM »
Yeah, I personally never understood the +3.  I liked it back when it could kill the caster.  That was hardcore.

Increase it's DC by 10.

Make it kill the caster.

Suddenly spell is far more interesting.... Martydom, anyone?

That is an awesome idea.

Telkar

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2010, 06:18:14 AM »
Erm...not sure if the npc I was up against would like to commit Martyrdom.  : P

A super destructive and self-destructive spell like that would be interesting though. I never experienced it when it was like that.

Ellana Twiggy

  • Guest
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2010, 09:04:31 AM »
I have always liked implosion, minus the fact that it only works on living things. :) But that is one of its draw backs too. As far as the dc goes, there are defensive feats i think, at least I am pretty sure there are vs spell schools. And death ward wont work on it since its an  evocation and not necromancy.  At least I am pretty sure its evocation. . .been a while since I played a decent level cleric.  If the npc using it is undead, then the spell wouldn't effect them anyway. . .if they are living then thats a whole different story.  But meh, thats my tid bit.

dark_majico

  • Guest
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2010, 09:06:26 AM »
Yeah, I personally never understood the +3.  I liked it back when it could kill the caster.  That was hardcore.

Increase it's DC by 10.

Make it kill the caster.

Suddenly spell is far more interesting.... Martydom, anyone?

Do you mean, death for the cast if he or she is standing within the radiouse (what is the radiouse by the way?) or just ionstant kill no matter what. Ide love to see that added in! Except only for pc's not npc's, there AI is too stupid to understand the concept of being a martyr.

Minstrel

  • Official Mascot of the
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2040
  • Cat in the Hat
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2010, 09:46:41 AM »
Hmm. Maybe retain the usual ability and nerf it somewhat, and modify it that when used on yourself it kills you and is far more powerful.

Or just make it targettable, kill you, and far more powerful. Either good.

Telkar

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2010, 10:12:24 AM »
Here is the spell description.

If it only works on living things...but breaches past death effect immunities, doesn't it have something to do with having undead/construct levels to be "properly" not alive to be immune to the spell? If so, the spell might work against undead MPCs even if it shouldn't, since they're technically their original type + undead template, as far as I know.

The spell in the 3.5 PnP is a bit different:
Quote
Implosion

Evocation
Level: Clr 9, Destruction 9 Components: V, S Casting Time: 1 standard action Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels) Targets: One corporeal creature/round Duration: Concentration (up to 4 rounds) Saving Throw: Fortitude negates Spell Resistance: Yes

You create a destructive resonance in a corporeal creature’s body. For each round you concentrate, you cause one creature to collapse in on itself, killing it. (This effect, being instantaneous, cannot be dispelled.)

You can target a particular creature only once with each casting of the spell.

Implosion has no effect on creatures in gaseous form or on incorporeal creatures.

That type of the spell seems cool too, only making incorporeal creatures immune to it...and it just targets one creature instead of all within a radius. In the instance I got caught in it, my other partner got caught in it too, so it can be an instant party wipe...though it just got us into a bleeding state really.

Shadowthrone

  • Guest
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2010, 10:59:01 AM »
The only thing I think should be changed about that spell is the +3 DC Bioware gave it out of absolutely nowhere.

mayvind

  • Guest
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #15 on: December 05, 2010, 11:02:32 AM »
If i remember correctly the spell work on undead like vampires but not on skeletons or construction type, also i think it is fine as it is because Wizard have Time Stop, Cleric have Implosion. This kinda nerfing thread thing always happend when some body got pwnt by NPC or PC using a certain spell he or she was not prepared for. I sacrificed feats and made one of mine Wizard character with high fort and spell saves wearing amulet of death +6 can resist any Cleric throwing a implosion spell. If you not build yours class right then it is yours fault stop using OOC means to nerf stuff to suit yours convenient. The key is to be prepare and know what you face not making it Nerf it because it killed me one time because i was careless and not fort build. Is not that Am not suffer under same effect but it made me more caution and more prepare i remember when loots is not so easy to find like today i spend time searching for amulet of death just for exactly protection agaist implosion and it made the amulet worth more.

Spell mantle also stop implosion, spell resistance, spell immunity add more saves vs the spell there is so many way to be prepare for it. Next i be hearing Time Stop spell should not effect people under Freedom of Movement. And next thing i know people will want monsters to stand still and let we hit it till death.

Ophie Kitty

  • Inactive - Quit
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1201
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #16 on: December 05, 2010, 11:31:45 AM »
If i remember correctly the spell work on undead like vampires but not on skeletons or construction type..

Undead would be immune to this this spell because it is a fortitude save; as per the Undead subtype traits according to PNP rules.

[[Immunity to any effect that requires a Fortitude save (unless the effect also works on objects or is harmless).]]

mayvind

  • Guest
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #17 on: December 05, 2010, 11:54:44 AM »
Last i check is NWN not PNP. Flesh to Stone work on Undead with FLESH as well like vampires. And it is Fort saves. many will saves don't effect undead, but control undead do. It is not about saves it is more like what type of spell it is. Should we also argument a cold basic spell do not work on undead, but we all know extremely cold freeze anything solid and shatter it easy. To say undead is immune to anything Fort saves kinda cheesy.  What we see is what we get Implosion work in POTM on undeads.

Definition of Implosion: Implosion is a process in which objects are destroyed by collapsing on themselves. The opposite of explosion, implosion concentrates matter and energy.

edit: maybe Implosion should work on constructs and skeletons as well by definition, that should solve undeads theory on fort saves since it work on object. Instead of nerf .. we now have tweak.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 11:58:41 AM by mayvind »

Telkar

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #18 on: December 05, 2010, 12:02:01 PM »
If i remember correctly the spell work on undead like vampires but not on skeletons or construction type, also i think it is fine as it is because Wizard have Time Stop, Cleric have Implosion. This kinda nerfing thread thing always happend when some body got pwnt by NPC or PC using a certain spell he or she was not prepared for. I sacrificed feats and made one of mine Wizard character with high fort and spell saves wearing amulet of death +6 can resist any Cleric throwing a implosion spell. If you not build yours class right then it is yours fault stop using OOC means to nerf stuff to suit yours convenient. The key is to be prepare and know what you face not making it Nerf it because it killed me one time because i was careless and not fort build. Is not that Am not suffer under same effect but it made me more caution and more prepare i remember when loots is not so easy to find like today i spend time searching for amulet of death just for exactly protection agaist implosion and it made the amulet worth more.

Spell mantle also stop implosion, spell resistance, spell immunity add more saves vs the spell there is so many way to be prepare for it. Next i be hearing Time Stop spell should not effect people under Freedom of Movement. And next thing i know people will want monsters to stand still and let we hit it till death.

This isn't a "nerfing" thread. It just so happened that my attention was drawn to this spell because I was killed by it (and being killed, I like to take a good look at what exactly caused it). I see the cause was a 38DC implosion spell, so I remembered how the +3 to the spell's DC was removed in other places and wondered why the spell hadn't been tinkered with here. Even if the +3 to the DC hadn't been in place when I was killed, I still would have been killed at DC35, so this has nothing to do with me suiting my own desires for "convenient" dungeoning or some such. It's up to me for things to go smoothly, and I like having that responsibility here instead of the world swaying to befit my character's needs.

It's a thread about overall spell balance, and how the spell fits within the spell system. Personally, I don't see the reason for the +3 DC whereas all the other spells are under the same standard DC rule of: 10 + spell level + ability modifier + spell focus feats. I'm not quite clear on what this +3 is supposed to represent.

Telkar

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1693
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #19 on: December 05, 2010, 12:09:11 PM »
edit: maybe Implosion should work on constructs and skeletons as well by definition, that should solve undeads theory on fort saves since it work on object. Instead of nerf .. we now have tweak.

I think the spell should work on corporeal undead and constructs too, as per spell description yup. That plus -3 DC would perhaps be ideal, in my opinion. Take some and give some.

Edit: ...or maybe have it so it affects the caster too with +10 DC...for the martyrdom. :p ...the + to DC explained as special potency of the spell since it sacrifices the caster. Either way would be cool.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2010, 12:12:33 PM by Telkar »

Emomina

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2645
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #20 on: December 05, 2010, 05:28:50 PM »
Yeah, after doing some number crunching, there is a +3 from no where, removing that is probably fair.
I survived the Blue Water Inn Massacre and all I got was this t-shirt.

Anarcoplayba

  • Red Academy
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1638
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #21 on: December 05, 2010, 07:07:18 PM »
If i remember correctly the spell work on undead like vampires but not on skeletons or construction type, also i think it is fine as it is because Wizard have Time Stop, Cleric have Implosion. This kinda nerfing thread thing always happend when some body got pwnt by NPC or PC using a certain spell he or she was not prepared for. I sacrificed feats and made one of mine Wizard character with high fort and spell saves wearing amulet of death +6 can resist any Cleric throwing a implosion spell. If you not build yours class right then it is yours fault stop using OOC means to nerf stuff to suit yours convenient. The key is to be prepare and know what you face not making it Nerf it because it killed me one time because i was careless and not fort build. Is not that Am not suffer under same effect but it made me more caution and more prepare i remember when loots is not so easy to find like today i spend time searching for amulet of death just for exactly protection agaist implosion and it made the amulet worth more.

Spell mantle also stop implosion, spell resistance, spell immunity add more saves vs the spell there is so many way to be prepare for it. Next i be hearing Time Stop spell should not effect people under Freedom of Movement. And next thing i know people will want monsters to stand still and let we hit it till death.

This isn't a "nerfing" thread. It just so happened that my attention was drawn to this spell because I was killed by it (and being killed, I like to take a good look at what exactly caused it). I see the cause was a 38DC implosion spell, so I remembered how the +3 to the spell's DC was removed in other places and wondered why the spell hadn't been tinkered with here. Even if the +3 to the DC hadn't been in place when I was killed, I still would have been killed at DC35, so this has nothing to do with me suiting my own desires for "convenient" dungeoning or some such. It's up to me for things to go smoothly, and I like having that responsibility here instead of the world swaying to befit my character's needs.

It's a thread about overall spell balance, and how the spell fits within the spell system. Personally, I don't see the reason for the +3 DC whereas all the other spells are under the same standard DC rule of: 10 + spell level + ability modifier + spell focus feats. I'm not quite clear on what this +3 is supposed to represent.

I'm planning to test the spell in the next level, but not entering in the merit of this +3 DC, but it's obvious this is not about overal spell balance: we're talking about a level 8th spell. It is supposed to be baddass.
Noignar Huillen: Ilmater Cleric.
Hedien Gine: Arrow and Bow Artist.
Dolin Schneim: Dwarven Soldier

HellsPanda

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 6598
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #22 on: December 05, 2010, 07:30:32 PM »
level 9

Shadowthrone

  • Guest
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #23 on: December 05, 2010, 07:38:01 PM »
It's essentially a death spell that ignores death immunity. +3 or not it's one of the most powerful spells in the game.

Minstrel

  • Official Mascot of the
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2040
  • Cat in the Hat
Re: Implosion!
« Reply #24 on: December 05, 2010, 08:56:58 PM »
Compare it to the 9th level WIZARD spells (and I remind you Wizards are supposed to be the one doing badass damage spells, not Clerics) with comparable function, Wail of the Banshee and Wierd.

Wierd too beats Death Immunity, but is stopped by Clarity and requires two saves, a will and a fort. Normal DC, no +3.

Wail of the Banshee dosen't beat death immunity, and dosen't get +3 like Implosion.

Implosion is definitely more powerful than it should be, IMO.