Enough's enough

[Anarcoplayba]

Didn't have the energy to read through all posts, but the original post had some very darn good points.

Don't you guys think it's a little odd that nearly every serious new RPer that joins (at least a lot) and wants to stick around (meaning he hasn't just "not bothered anymore") brings up the very same issues about the low levels?
I hate the WoW approach, making it easy for every retard and his 3 year old brother (no offense to 3 year olds) to do anything they want and get anything they want.. but there's also the level of "difficulty" or sheer bad luck in spawns, etc. that just leads to annoyance and demotivation. Which is the case moreso than adding to the realism for several systems in place on Ravenloft.

All in all it still is one of the best online RP experiences out there, and I don't mean just NVN, but it can definitly improve at mainly this point.
(Hey, I like killing off characters, rolling alternative peasants or new races to see if I can pull off their RP.. and other things that aren't fun when you first need to grind minks and get facerolled by a rat several times.)

The problem is that, IMHO, people log here to play NWN... and this is not NWN.

See, you have few magic items, few potions, nerfed casters (that are still powerful), nerfed rogues (that pretty much sucks), extra feats, extra skills (craft), exhaustion system, hungry, dehydration system, nerfed UMD, etc, etc, etc.

In a brief summary: this server uses NWN, but changed the systems so much that people who played NWN campaign can only feel annoyed by the level of difficulty.

However, most of us learned to love this server and all its hardships.

Seriously: where can we expect to have Character progression beyond the level ups? (Craft System).

We do agree that some things are missing: Craft Traps, Craft Magic Items, etc. (at least in my opinion)

We are not saying this is a easy server: on the contrary: we do agree that it is difficult.

We are, however, telling you:

1) The server is intended to be difficult.
2) There are ways to circumnavigate these hardships: RP, Partying and questing.

If you don't understand one of those points, you won't like this server. Changing the server to make it more newbie friendly will only Ruin POTM FOREVER!

[Strigoi]

ya consider the fact that everyone here talking in this thread has gone through what your going through. we have all been New at one point and we adapted to the server, rather then demanding the server to adapt to us.

when i first came here i got attacked by another player in OOC tells because they didnt like my Character Concept on my original character. needless to say, it chased me away from the server for about 6 months. i came back willing to give it another try and realized it was just the one player, and not the entire server that was a Douche bag lol.

anyway point is, give the server a shot and some time. if your usual methods are not working, try other Avenues. you either like the server or you dont. also read up on the rules, then you can call players out if they break any against you, and Give our New Community Council some work

[Aran]

look its hard

everyone agree on that and true sometimes the systems seems unwanted harsh, nut these systems have been chosen as the best or lesser evil of solutions possible with scripting or engine.

they have been tweaked and changed from feedback over a period of over 4 years now.

so naturally people already adapted to the systems think they are fair (again within the possibilities that the engine can accommodate)


you will meet evil and good chars and they will shape you

but the rewards are the greater for that and the sense of achievement greater still. Each level here feels like it matters


Approaching the right chars ingame chatting IC will make you level 5 in a week or 2 if you want to.

its all in the knowing as i have said before.

the engine works fine within the limitations it have, but if you get to know the lay of the land IC, you wont have any troubles with any class.

even nerfed wizars are some of the easyest to level in the beginning
ill say pure Rogues may be some of the hardest, but they sure rock past the first levels due to the need for skill points.

 

[Aahz]

i have a odd habbit of profiling people and watching the new stream of people that come and go.

in the last month we had about 15-17 new players (or chars)    trough difrant time slots

outa those 2 are bitching     (im not tacktfull i can call it diffrantly but i name it bitching)   that means those 2 are either not getting it or the other 13 are docile and dont open their yapps.

You can't assume new characters are new players. Old players that make new characters know how the ins and outs of the server and most likely will not be complaining. If you are going to analyze data you actually need real data to analyze. Actual number of players new to the server over the month, the number of those who got fed up and left,  how long they gave it a try before they did leave, the number of them that bothered to post about their difficulties, and the number that ended up staying.

Adventuring in groups, getting cool armor, all of that is fine and dandy for the roleplay you like, but this server isn't completely dedicated to such, this is designed to be a 'gothic-horror' in a sense, while heroism isn't exactly 'common place' fighting evil, and such. It's suppose to be somewhat of a dark, gritty atmosphere. That is the main 'setting' of the server.

Just a pet peeve of mine here... but Ravenloft is actually a Gothic-Horror-Fantasy setting. There is an age of difference.

[Anarcoplayba]

i have a odd habbit of profiling people and watching the new stream of people that come and go.

in the last month we had about 15-17 new players (or chars)    trough difrant time slots

outa those 2 are bitching     (im not tacktfull i can call it diffrantly but i name it bitching)   that means those 2 are either not getting it or the other 13 are docile and dont open their yapps.

You can't assume new characters are new players. Old players that make new characters know how the ins and outs of the server and most likely will not be complaining. If you are going to analyze data you actually need real data to analyze. Actual number of players new to the server over the month, the number of those who got fed up and left,  how long they gave it a try before they did leave, the number of them that bothered to post about their difficulties, and the number that ended up staying.

He probably means new forum ID's.

[dutchy]

no i mean players  everyone has habbits and i recognise the pattern and habbits of people often its just the speech pattern that gives them away.

i dunno i cant explain its my rainman side     It's a 1949 Buick Roadmaster. Straight 8. Fireball 8. Only 8,985 production models. Dad lets me drive slow on the driveway. But not on Monday, definitely not on Monday.

but trust me im awfully close about the numbers.

[Feronius]

Here we go again.. repeating all I knew already, but missing the point.

My point was, maybe it wasn't clear, that level issues early on fuck you over. They get in the way of your RP experience, limiting you in a bad way. A good way would be "That marsh is dangerous, we need traveling companions or personal guards to pass through there.." a bad would be "Darn! It's night, shit! A group of 6 rats just spawned.. run like hell and hope the loading screen doesn't make them catch up! Even though we're RPing a brave character.. facing more than 1 rat is suicide!" which would go against your character's personality. (Unless your char is either a weak old man or has a fear of rats / diseases)

Over the top example, but you get the idea.
As said before, unwantedly harsh is just harsh.. it's not fun or enhanching for the RP experience. It might serve as a good ward to fend off the lazy RPers or those who do can't be bothered, but in the end those would leave anyhow.. and it's just a royal pain in the ass for those who do commit to this server, as they deal with it the most.
(Unless you want to encourage people to never get off their level 20 OR be carried around by friends all the time.. I personally think lone RPers can be brilliant though and I don't like relying on others all the time, it gets annoying and isn't always handy.)



Putting up a FAQ that explains a routine in which you would survive and make it through the levels easier does NOT add to the RP experience. (Still a good idea, but no solution for most newbies?)
It merely limits your character's personality and choices. As in, if you have a soldier who needs to train to join the Garda.. why'd he go hunt minks? Or sit in a tavern all day til he decides he's ready.. that's not very efficient for the character development and you would need to start off every character as a commoner or hunter then, a good thing pherhaps in a way.... but starting off every char as a commoner gets really tedious and inconvenient, what if you would like to start a beggar or hermit? Would he need to spend all his time begging at the outskirts to gain XP through RP or spend hours on his own (RL time) in the city, gaining a bit of XP when people pass by? He can't kill rats and it makes little sense for him to go out hunting minks or deer.

Pherhaps you call this bitching, but I'd like to think of it as constructive criticism. I do bother to comment and see this server improve.
Because as said.. that's the main and probly only issue demotivating me from actively playing on the server, it's just tiresome. And some people do not want to OoCly whisper people to pick up their corpse and do it the "semi-IC" way, I refuse to do that every time I die. The insanely high general quality of RP is what makes this server stand out.
Shouldn't need to compromise that with OoC stuff just to make your life a lot easier, making those that do try to RP fully IC, the proper way, throw away many and many hours by things that hardly even add anything to anyone's RP experience. ("Ow, he died on the way.. a random wolf jumped out and bit him in the head before we reached him. Third time this week already!" or ignoring it completly as if it didn't happen.)

I'd much rather have a few class quests, for bards and other weaker classes at the first levels, to get a shot at leveling easier or get a bit more freedom in movement without dying somehow. Not for the sake of leveling, doh.. then we'd not be on this server to begin with.
Or tone down the stats of very weak mobs to fit them more accordingly, I don't get why tiny scarabs are impossible to beat for most characters below level 5.. or why even a single common rat should pose a serious threat to any fighter. That way no XP boosts or any crap is needed, seeing people don't seem fond of that suggestion.

And why does nearly everyone agree it's insanely harsh, without help, the first few levels.. yet so stubbornly avoids change?
Doesn't make much sense to me. There must be some tweaks that only get just about every side advantages.



P.S. Shove that acid pots up yours, before anyone comments about that. It's really a waste of fang in my eyes, heh.. darn 1 or 2 damage per toss.
P.P.S. Dutchy, you do realise a lot of people don't even bother with actively using the forums or any community method. They simply log on.. die a few times.. and move on to another RP server.

[Strigoi]

Here we go again.. repeating all I knew already, but missing the point.

i think its the other way around.

the server is meant to be hard place to survive. i dont think you are understanding that principle concept. if you want easy, this probably isnt the place for you. arguing your points over and over is moot. if every new player that came along argued the Developers into catering to their Ideals, this wouldn't be the server that it is, probably be more like World of Warcraft.

a video Game is Like Priceless art, you either love it or you dont. you dont ask the artist to change the painting if you dont like it lol.

Survive the Mists, or move on.

its your choice

[HellsPanda]

Feronious, I disagree.... it doesn't limit RP in the least, it limits you playing a brave person who can go anywhere, and limits you to playing a fresh character, who is learning his limits, and develop into a brave or cowardly char over time. As I see it the only one who limits the RP is you, your limiting your own RP by judging something to hard, or by wanting to rapidly becom slightly better.

Your garda example, there is no bottom limiting level to become a Garda, and alot of Garda RP is training, so I dont see your problem there. Actually garda are armed peasants not elite warriors.

As for the rats even the smallest one is a rapid giant rat, only a lunatic would charge one, much less a swarm of them as soon as he sees them.
Good RP on a mutliplayer server involves team work, it involves interacting with others.

PS: Bards are one of the strongest characters you can play from a powergamer perspective

[Norture]

Here we go again.. repeating all I knew already, but missing the point.

Did you entirely miss my point where I said the challenge and the gritty dark atmosphere is the entire appeal to this server? If you want to go adventure and be hero, there's every single other server out there pretty much. I tried starting on a FR server to try and get a better sense of the setting, and it put me off just how easy and happy and boring it was in comparison (it turns out that everyone in Faerun really does leave doors open too).

Didn't have the energy to read through all posts...

Oh.... I guess you did miss my post. And everyone else who was saying the same thing.

[Feronius]

Not the way I build my bard, from an IC perspective.
And nobody mentioned easy, just the word easier.. as in some ways, it is insane.
But if your feeling of hard and realistic is being beaten up by a single gremsomething, dire rat or grave scarab which are roughly 1/20th of your size on average.. while you're armed. So be it, I however find it a downer when I keep running into those creatures time after time and they're essentially, besides minks, the only option for gaining XP if you don't want to be a character that sticks around the outskirts.
Nor is it very heroic or being able to go anywhere when you try to face a dire rat with a big darn mace and have a big chance of missing 8 consecutive hits in a row.

From my point of view it does definitly limit your RP.. or moreso forces you into the direction of grinding, OoCing (or the "IC excuses / OoC communication" route) and developing your character on OoC choices.. rather than IC events. -That- was my point.



And I am studying art, the best artists ask for feedback to improve.. so they can give that stunning painting that extra touch or correction it needs to become perfect.

The suggestion was not in the slightest to alter the principle concept, merely to make it more realistic and immersive.. which I believe is the server's strive? So in that aspect it would be even closer to the desired concept. (I'm not suggesting big changes that make you able to level blind without effort, merely for some tweaking that doesn't make one waste hours over a small mainly OoC obstacles, which demotivate new players.)
I thoroughly enjoy the paintstyle of the mists, it's a fine art indeed.. but if I have to spend hours of hardly worthwhile time before enjoying the view of this marvelous painting, then it's generally not worth it and I will move on. It's just a matter of time, bad luck and dying another 20 times with a character in a not so IC fashion.
(I could also just change into a minkgrinding, OoCwhispering, dungeoning, groupplayer.. but then you'd ruin the colour selection of the painting badly, leaving only muddy colours.)

I'd rather try my hand at a forum reply in the hope someone goes "That makes sense, it makes the overall image better."
Then to waste a server with so much more great potential than it already has currently, do you mind?



P.S. Norture, I indeed did not read that reply, but if you read mine (which you claim you did) you'd see I also said that people probably don't visit an RP server to experience the leveling gameplay. And a gritty dark atmosphere is fine, but needlessly unlogicly hard mobs aren't always needed to create such.. not everywhere, new players need to start somewhere. I don't care about being thrown into the deep either, I do care about having an absolutely very slim chance of survival unless acting on previously gained knowledge or other OoC actions.
I don't want to be a hero, why the hell would I use a beggar or hermit as an example then? I just don't want to spend hours and hours dead because I missed a dire rat 8 times in a row and got owned? (Random example, not true experience - before you bitch about statistics, you get the point.)

[Feronius]

Alas, enough is enough.. I've made my point.
Don't want to turn this into an unconstructive "Defend your point" thing, read it or don't and move on.

I just found giving feedback appropriate, as I'm not planning on leaving for such a silly matter as hard leveling.
But it is definitly something that can be tweaked (slightly! Can't seem to stress that word enough) to make the server.. not worse in any way.
(People seem to be overly defensive when I state it in a more positive way.)

Feedback is always good, wether it's used or not is up to the creators / devs. Obviously.