Devils-Spamming Dispel

[jugnaut]

My 16 level ranger/rogue/barbarian got killed by the cornugons in the village crypts today.  I noticed that these devils are a bit unbalanced.  First, they have a fear aura.  Secondly, they spam dispel magic repeatedly....they cast it at least a dozen times on my pc.  So the result is that no matter how much a warrior prepares, he will have his mind protections stripped and then get "feared" and run away til he gets murdered.  I repeatedly tried to apply potions and protection from evil but they kept dispelling it faster than I could reapply it.  Then they stood over my knocked out body and smacked it after he was down.  He died but very thankfully he didn't get badly impaired somehow so that was a small victory.  Personally, I think a fully buffed 16th lvl warrior pc should be able to kill Cornugons. 

[Aran]

only character i have managed to beat em down there alone was with aran

first as paladin with fear immunity, second when he was undead and immune to mind affecting

buff ya will save instead with amule and rings might be a better choice :-)

[Emomina]

Personally, I think a fully buffed 16th lvl warrior pc should be able to kill Cornugons. 

Not alone he shouldn't.  If those buffs are coming from items then they will be dispelled, if they come from a caster of proper level to kill devils then they wont get dispelled hardly if at all.

[Minstrel]

This seems a bit off to me. Things that spam dispel is fine, and things that have Fear Aura is fine. But together, you have something that the majority of Clerics are fine against, as are other casters, but non-casters are utterly embuggered against.

[Tamtam]

Personally, I think a fully buffed 16th lvl warrior pc should be able to kill Cornugons. 

Not alone he shouldn't.  If those buffs are coming from items then they will be dispelled, if they come from a caster of proper level to kill devils then they wont get dispelled hardly if at all.

I can understand that with a single dispel.. But any monster that can non-stop cast just about anything really isn't fair. What's even the point of varnishes/potions if you're still gonna' need a caster to do just about anything?
(And.. Where's the benefit for being a fighter then? Because the casters can just do it themselves by level 16, if not plenty sooner)

[Emomina]

The game is not balanced. Its not built with soloing monsters in mind. Its a party based game.  In NWN, yes, a cleric that uses nearly ALL of their buffs on themself can kill a cornugon or two.  If the same cleric spends all of those buffs on classes that are better than him at doing, then they can clear an entire dungeon of cornugons in a single casting. If you are the caster that self buffs and rests a lot then you are not playing within the spirit of the ruleset. Its not wrong either way you look at it, it just is.

Personally I would rather an extra dimensional soldier in the army of evil to need something more than brute normal human know how to defeat. Needing magic to defeat such things is more within the immersion than without.

[Telkar]

Emomina's point is sound to me. Also to Tamtam, varnishes don't get dispelled and neither does any enchantment on a weapons as far as I know.

[HellsPanda]

actually the most dangerous dungeon on the server requires non casters to be done successfully, because of Dispell magic spamming, since the warriors are better after.
Also it doesn't affect weapons at all, from my experience.


A solo caster will always be less effective than a support/team caster.

[dutchy]

This seems a bit off to me. Things that spam dispel is fine, and things that have Fear Aura is fine. But together, you have something that the majority of Clerics are fine against, as are other casters, but non-casters are utterly embuggered against.

*watches hell freezing over*  hes right    for a low magic setting we sure do need to depend on casters alot.

[Shadowthrone]

It's because this is a low magic setting that casters are required. Magical items are rare, magic is no less powerful.

That has been explained quite often and I don't think the devs are ever going to start designing creatures to be solo'd, nor should they.

[dutchy]

never said solo did i ?

still sneakers or more then one warrior etc     

but i never said solo

[Shadowthrone]

That isn't a balanced party, dutchy.

[Tamtam]

I was speaking (..Well, typing) more with balance in mind. Yeah, I get what you're saying from an RP perspective plenty.
Granted, I'd rather see them stronger than spamming dispels nonstop. That's still going to strip buffs from those cast on (If I remember correctly.. starting with those spells of lesser levels.. Like protection from Allignment)
Also, weapon buffs (at least, the spells) should be able to be stripped. If they're not, I'm not complaining.
Varnishes definitely should not be dispelled via magic, that's my bad there.


Debating balance in the issue isn't really a good idea, though, because.. Well, regardless, you're going to need decent-level casters that could do it on their own with a bit of rest. It might kill the mood/fun of it for some (like me), but it's still.. Possible for some and completely out of this world for others.

/deep breath
...Back on topic- Yeah, anyway, dispel magic + Fear Aura = Bad for everybody.
Then again, I hate fear auras altogether. Seems kind of iffy to have that jerk in the robes be much more willing to look a bone-bat in the eye than a seasoned warrior to me.

[Badelaire]

Have to say regardless of build, few people would have any real desire to go battle demons by themselves. I mean fear and dispels and such, they -are- demons. Entities few ever encounter without dire consequences or the risk of bad things happening very quickly. They're not supposed to be your average monster you can cut down with little thought and represent some of the greater evils in the Ravenloft setting. To reiterate a tired point, NWN is a party game. Each class has their strengths and weaknesses, some having huge strengths over others. With a well rounded party you can take on a hell of a lot more than you would alone no matter how powerbuilt you may/may not be. I rarely see a cleric that didn't spend half an hour making themselves godlike, only to get hit with every type of dispel effect going, survive encounters like these and I certainly wouldn't have attempted a solo attack on a demonic lair with a class combo where will is the weakest save. 

To be honest I find soloing kinda boring personally, not that others don't find it fun, but when you stick with a few PC's and undergo these trials together you develop a rapport with them. You start getting involved with their story and soon enough begin developing one together as living, breathing characters. The PC who runs past at mach 10 to get to the dungeon before a group of you usually ends up laid out in the Morning Lord temple dead with no one caring enough about them to raise them.

[tzaeru]

A solo caster will always be less effective than a support/team caster.

There's a dungeon in Barovia which is easy for a level 17 wizard, yet hard as hell for a level 17 wizard AND a level 17 fighter.

I like diversity such as that!

Anyhow: Personally I find Dispel + Aura of Fear an interesting challenge, rather than a burden. Generally Auras of Fear are a joke (due to NWN's ridicilously overpowered version of Protection from Alignment), so it's nice to see one of 'em auras for once being worth a thing.

Granted, I'd rather see them stronger than spamming dispels nonstop. That's still going to strip buffs from those cast on (If I remember correctly.. starting with those spells of lesser levels.. Like protection from Allignment)

Dispel removes spells of all spell levels at equal chance. Only the level of the caster has any affect. I don't recall what dispel they actually cast, nor at what character level. Do they do lesser dispel or normal dispel?

[Emomina]

They cast dispel magic, not lesser.
The caster level is somewhere between 12 and 15 by my estimation.  around 12 you are still vulnerable, but by 15 its much less so.

[Minstrel]

Meaning the casters, that being the level 15 buffbots that are just hack-and-slashing in a big hamster bubble, are less affected by the  spells than the level 15 Fighters using potions to get past the Fear Aura.

Dispel Magic isn't working against casters, but IS working against Fighters?

o_o

[Aahz]

Ummm Yeah,  NWN has been like this since the beginning.... D&D too for that matter.

[HellsPanda]

it also means level 16 support mages are usefull, and if they actually buff the fighters and rogues, you will see things get torn apart

[Mailbox0000]

 Demons and devils are serious business. I enjoy the ridiculous abilities they often possess. It's not like there aren't a plethora of strategies to engage them with. One chain-dispelling creature with a fear aura isn't so bad when you can just charge/focus on them. When you have a group of them, it is perhaps time to reconsider this meathead strategem.

[jugnaut]

Meaning the casters, that being the level 15 buffbots that are just hack-and-slashing in a big hamster bubble, are less affected by the  spells than the level 15 Fighters using potions to get past the Fear Aura.

Dispel Magic isn't working against casters, but IS working against Fighters?

o_o

It's the repeated spamming I have a problem with.  I reapplied courage potions and protection from alignment a half-dozen times in the middle of fighting....made some will saves...but with the constant spamming they eventually caught me once and I was slaughtered like a sheep lol.  They're tough monsters without spamming dispel.  They're hard to hit, seem to have some type of concealment bonus, and hit hard.  My cleric could own them but my fighter is one level higher and can't make it cause of the dispelling.  My cleric rarely gets dispelled.  

It is ironic that on a low-magic server, you have to be a mage or cleric to thrive lol.

[ThAnswr]

The game is not balanced. Its not built with soloing monsters in mind. Its a party based game.  In NWN, yes, a cleric that uses nearly ALL of their buffs on themself can kill a cornugon or two.  If the same cleric spends all of those buffs on classes that are better than him at doing, then they can clear an entire dungeon of cornugons in a single casting. If you are the caster that self buffs and rests a lot then you are not playing within the spirit of the ruleset. Its not wrong either way you look at it, it just is.

Personally I would rather an extra dimensional soldier in the army of evil to need something more than brute normal human know how to defeat. Needing magic to defeat such things is more within the immersion than without.

Cornugons are devils?  I didn't know that.  I just thought they were another pain in the ass to deal with in the crypts.  And successfully, I may add.   

[dark_majico]

There dispelling can be dealt with quite easily by a rogue using a bow, or some other charecter using a sling. To counter magic, you either need a wizard who counter spells them OR you use a ranged weapon to disrupt spellcasting.

[tzaeru]

To counter magic, you either need a wizard who counter spells them OR you use a ranged weapon to disrupt spellcasting.

Um, the first idea isn't really practical at all. Not only would you need to sacrifice hordes of spellslots, but you'd still run out of them pretty soon.

Use corners for cover, play smart, have some buffs from pure caster rather than potions and it's just fine.

[dark_majico]

My point was that there are plenty of ways too get around the devils spamming it.