Author Topic: Rogue Questions.  (Read 8862 times)

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #25 on: November 16, 2010, 01:26:41 PM »
AAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!

Please! The xp isonly part of the problem: we still have the set trap breaking invisibility...

Good?

Wizards shouldn't be setting traps, without rogue levels and considerable hide/MS to make them better at stealth whilst invisible. Those who are both setting traps are either Rogue/Wizards, who should have trouble due to being thinly spread, and other rogues with invisibility potions, who should be good enough at stealth.

Afaik, it dosen't break stealth (though I have limited experience), it just gives you a check of hide/ms vs spot/listen at a penalty (since silently setting a complicated trap, Eg. placing a bomb in a small pit, laying down a bear trap, etc, is considerably harder than just standing still).

If trap setting didn't cancel invis, every Wizard about would be able focus in set trap a bit (not hard with all their skillpoints) and just run around people setting them happily despite having 0 Hide/Ms. Does that seem fair?

I do think it's fair:

a)

1) Traps are expensive.
2) Traps aren't craftable.
3) Traps are VERY hard to recover.
4) Traps add an annoying weight to our always almost encumbered PC's.

Untill what I could discover, to recover a trap in this server you would need at least a DC check of 30, what means a skill level of 10, what means 10 skill points to wizards, what makes we talking about a level 17 wizard, a level 14 if we are talking about skill focus. (correct-me if I'm wrong).

Crafting traps is impossible, unless you're talking about weak traps, which are useless.

Ok, you can buy. But take a look at the prices. They are prohibitive. And you cannot carry many traps, as they take room in our inventories and add weight.

Besides all this, we would still need the "set trap" skill, another investment.

IMHO, for a wizard, investing in trap skills wouldn't be all that useful: he will have much more succes if invest, for instance, in tumble, discipline, parry, etc.

So, the ghost trap making wizard is not a power build.

b) We have server rules regarding the trap usage. Always informing, hostilizing, etc.

c) Traps are fairly easily avoidable (via search, resistance or reflex saves)

d) When we open a lock, a door, a chest, etc, we are forced to make a Hide and MS check to avoid being noticed, being invisible or not. Failing, however, does not break invisibility.

I see no reason why opening a door, chest, lock should be treated any different from setting a trap.

That's a point, opening doors should break it too. :D

Invisibility in NWN is far more powerful than it is in PnP. If Jim the level 40 Druid with maximised Listen is sat around chilling, and Beardhammer the 6-Dex Dwarf in his fullplate, chain boots and tower shield chugs an invisibility potion, Jim won't even notice if Beardhammer runs past with his -18 Move Silently model, yodelling the Dwarven National Anthem.

Further: A wizard can pretty easily get 10 Set Trap. Start with 12 Dex (many wizards do), cast Cats Grace and get 16, then take a background that gives a little bonus to it, and you've got 4 points at level 0. Pick up 2 from gear (iirc, there's a belt to give you trap ability), and you only need to be level 5 to have all 10 ranks you need.

If you REALLY pushed it (skill focus, 14 Dex, two backgrounds, gear), you could have 10 Set Trap as a wizard at level 2.

If you want to set traps and suchlike, then invest heavily in Hide/Move Silently for the payoff. Invisibility is so flawed because it's a wizard trying to be a rogue. A rogue gets all the bonuses for their investment, like trapping and unlocking whilst invisible.

Rogues can't summon demons. :(

Thanks a lot to you and to Axel for adressing my questions. I still think there's something wrong with the XP roguish system (and I am confident you will take a quick look).

Regarding this last post, two things:

1) I'd invest heavily in Hide and MS if they weren't already nerfed. See: we nerf Hide and MS, then when we complain about the set traps breaking invisibility, people say that we should search for the nerfed Hide and MS system.

It's frustrating to be unable to sneak past zombies.

And dunno if it is just with me, but even with invisibility options, monsters chase me and notice me around then.

Traps are almost prohibitive in the server, most things are immune to sneak attacks, most things can spot listen fairly well. The way things are, rogues are mostly the class everyone already multiclassed or PRClassed take one or two levels just for skill points.

Rogues are probably the most hard class to play in this server, and are used mostly to give skill points to fighters, or to allow assassins and shadowdancers.

2) Rogues do not summon devils? I'll do my best to do it!!!!
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Emomina

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #26 on: November 16, 2010, 02:19:17 PM »
Rogues can't summon demons. :(

Wizards can not either, with a rogue stopping them :evil:
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #27 on: November 16, 2010, 02:22:26 PM »

If you want to set traps and suchlike, then invest heavily in Hide/Move Silently for the payoff. Invisibility is so flawed because it's a wizard trying to be a rogue. A rogue gets all the bonuses for their investment, like trapping and unlocking whilst invisible.

Trying to get back to the topic: can't we have, at least, the chance to roll Hide and MS before invisi is broken?

Like it usually happened with doors and locks?

I mean, at least don't make us waste our invisi pottions.
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Emomina

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2010, 02:23:56 PM »
Honestly, i have no idea what you mean by invisibility broken. What situation are you referring to?
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #29 on: November 16, 2010, 02:28:33 PM »
Honestly, i have no idea what you mean by invisibility broken. What situation are you referring to?

1) My rogue/bard/arcane drinks an invisibility potion.
2) She sneaks in port a lucine and see some calibans.
3) She retreats while invisible and begin to set a trap.
4) After setting a trap she no longer is invisible.

Setting traps breaks invisibility without hide/MS checks.
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Emomina

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #30 on: November 16, 2010, 02:39:13 PM »
ah, I have never tried that.

It works like punching a statue or attacking someone then. Set the trap, and then drink a second invisibility potion then.
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Taty

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #31 on: November 16, 2010, 02:44:40 PM »
Rogues are basically a waste of time on this server if you are seeking a build able to function on its own. The recent changes to items have made stealth pretty much impossible vs other pc's. Also since everyone is a lock picker rogues arent even valued for locks and traps, and as noted with everything immune to sneak attacks coupled with a lousy ab you are better off as a fighter half the levels high. Add to that the slow feat rate which get consumed by your special feats when you pass 10th and you end up with an rp character that is helpful in a dungeon thats isnt undead filled (if someone actually lets them do the locks and traps).

Suz recently died in the vamp cryts on moderate spawn (17th lvl , pretty good gear) while gathering herbs. She ended up being rescued by someone much lower in level (14th I think). I've come to realise she is useless alone, even a small band of werewolves give her a tough time. In hind sight its doesnt help she is a balanced biuld, which doesnt really work on this server. You should either make an rp build and do nothing but rp or make a power build which rogues arent even close to being.

~Taty~

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #32 on: November 16, 2010, 02:47:25 PM »
ah, I have never tried that.

It works like punching a statue or attacking someone then. Set the trap, and then drink a second invisibility potion then.

Well, my bard doesn't have acces to infinite potions, besides, what should break invisibility is an attack (physical or not) and setting a trap is not an attack.
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Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #33 on: November 16, 2010, 02:48:00 PM »
Rogues are basically a waste of time on this server if you are seeking a build able to function on its own. The recent changes to items have made stealth pretty much impossible vs other pc's. Also since everyone is a lock picker rogues arent even valued for locks and traps, and as noted with everything immune to sneak attacks coupled with a lousy ab you are better off as a fighter half the levels high. Add to that the slow feat rate which get consumed by your special feats when you pass 10th and you end up with an rp character that is helpful in a dungeon thats isnt undead filled (if someone actually lets them do the locks and traps).

Suz recently died in the vamp cryts on moderate spawn (17th lvl , pretty good gear) while gathering herbs. She ended up being rescued by someone much lower in level (14th I think). I've come to realise she is useless alone, even a small band of werewolves give her a tough time. In hind sight its doesnt help she is a balanced biuld, which doesnt really work on this server. You should either make an rp build and do nothing but rp or make a power build which rogues arent even close to being.

~Taty~

Yup. And I'd like to see rogues less useless.
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Emomina

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #34 on: November 16, 2010, 03:01:19 PM »
They are not useless. Some days I think they are the most powerful class around, if you are the type that  makes enemies.
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HellsPanda

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #35 on: November 16, 2010, 03:03:25 PM »
they are my favoured allies... and yes in PvE they aren't good Solo, but this isn't a solo server

Minstrel

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #36 on: November 16, 2010, 03:42:45 PM »
Ranger is weaker, especially if you don't use spells. My rogue is only at about 10% of his potential since he dosen't use spell scrolls.

(Oh, yeah, I just remembered, a good UMD rogue CAN summon demons)

I think I agree that invisibility should not break if you pass a hide/MS check, or have some kind of revamp. But not that it should let any chunky bugger walk around throwing traps everywhere without being heard by the greatest of hearers despite generally making as much racket as an exploding skillet factory.

dutchy

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #37 on: November 16, 2010, 04:23:28 PM »
They are not useless. Some days I think they are the most powerful class around, if you are the type that  makes enemies.

yeah make that 52 weeks a year   they ARE the strongest class they are hard to hit can avoid magic for the major part and they jump on traps like a child causing a  tantrum and still not set it off, then there are the scrolls and all other items they can use.

most cannot hear or see them     they are the best and strongest clas BUT it takes awhile
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Axel

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #38 on: November 16, 2010, 04:28:18 PM »
Thanks a lot to you and to Axel for adressing my questions.

Sorry?

Shadowthrone

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #39 on: November 16, 2010, 04:36:00 PM »
The rogue XP hasn't (atleast intentionally) been disabled - but it's only rewarded when there's a real risk. This both means that there should be a risk of being spotted/heard (that the creatures have good enough spot or listen to have at least some chance of hearing you) and that they are powerful enough to constitute a threat to you if they do.

In that case I think it may not be working correctly, I've lifted things in front of monsters capable of spotting my rogue and very certainly capable of killing her if she were spotted without gaining any experience. Would you mind having a look? <3
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 04:38:17 PM by Sheltatha »

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #40 on: November 16, 2010, 04:58:50 PM »
Thanks a lot to you and to Axel for adressing my questions.

Sorry?

Duh! Sorry: I took Soren for Axel.
:banghead:
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dutchy

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #41 on: November 16, 2010, 05:01:24 PM »
Thanks a lot to you and to Axel for adressing my questions.

Sorry?

yes you are excused
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Axel

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #42 on: November 16, 2010, 05:38:11 PM »
Thanks a lot to you and to Axel for adressing my questions.

Sorry?

Duh! Sorry: I took Soren for Axel.
:banghead:

Ah, no worries. I thought I was being more forgetful than I usually am. Either way, we're more or less siamese twins anyway. ;)

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #43 on: November 20, 2010, 12:05:41 AM »
REssurrecting this post: I'm right now in the port, I was stealthet and without enemies around, and set a trap.

Setting traps automatically cancel stealth and invisibility. No checks allowed.
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Shadowthrone

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #44 on: November 20, 2010, 05:48:54 AM »
Setting traps has always broken stealth in NWN. I don't know about invisibility.

Jotem

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #45 on: November 20, 2010, 02:24:11 PM »
Setting traps has always broken stealth in NWN. I don't know about invisibility.

Both.

Minstrel

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #46 on: November 20, 2010, 02:57:46 PM »
Oooh. I wonder if there's a way to make it possible to drop traps in stealth mode? Like take a -10 check against anyone in the vicinity's Listen/Spot. Or just a set DC based on the strength of the trap....

Would be nice.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #47 on: November 20, 2010, 04:04:35 PM »
Oooh. I wonder if there's a way to make it possible to drop traps in stealth mode? Like take a -10 check against anyone in the vicinity's Listen/Spot. Or just a set DC based on the strength of the trap....

Would be nice.

I still think that setting traps shouldn't breake invisibility (we can pick locks and cast while invisible, traps shouldn't be different), and I take that traps shouldn't make you drop the stealth too.

Any chances of having this implemented?
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Minstrel

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #48 on: November 20, 2010, 05:03:11 PM »
I realise that 'realistically' that yes, trap setting shouldn't break invis, but compare the investment:

Stealth: Three skill points per level (including Set Trap), lots of dex, probably half their gear, skill focus feats, etc.

Invisibility: Pick up a potion.

Makes sense balance-wise that stealth allow more versatility.

As for it's implementation, the devs are probably watching this thread, so it might come up on their (big) list of their things to do.

dark_majico

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Re: Rogue Questions.
« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2010, 07:46:12 AM »
Well I checked this thread out and at first I felt I agree that setting a trap shouldnt break invisibility, its been argued that a Wizard shouldnt set traps, which is not true as a Wizard/Rogue build would be common in a place like Calimshan, so why wouldnt a wizard use a trap to dispatch a foe? Wizard also set traps in there towers so trap setting and crafting IS deffinatly a skill a wizard will learn, and I also feel a sorcerer would have even more reason to use traps in combat than a wizard does.

Then I realised that a hostile act dispels invisibility, allthough an indirect act does not, the players handbook says that triggering a remote trap does not dispell invisiblity, but it dosent mention anything about setting traps. I searched through my dungeon masters guides and my players handbook, and Neverwinter Wiki, and I cant find any definitions for hostile acts, does anyone know of any definition/list of hostile acts?