Author Topic: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"  (Read 3600 times)

dutchy

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #25 on: October 17, 2010, 02:13:08 PM »
this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.

I think you are catching on here. Simply put, and I speak for most DM's; we are tired of being punched on by kids with a strong sense of entitlement. I will punch you back. The power lies with you to just show some consideration for the staff, dev. DMs and CC, it will be returned to you once you start showing consideration in the way you behave in your posting when someone gives of their free time to bring an idea forth.



true like some players do for the playerbase you do for the dms...but it does hmm make you come over like a bad person wich you aint you are just to friggin tired of all the problems and lack of respect as most of the dms do difrance is you got a mouth and you use it.
to counter this  the dm team should best delete or lock posts that go that route and say go to the CC and tell your concerns, but on the other side people might see it as a strict forim hand that theyl dislike.

i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.

My last post here was not an attack btw  was from one guy to another and shoulda been a PM now that i reread it.

keep on opening that mouth but dont lower to the  level of the idiots ain worth it DM darkness   :lol:

You are the only noob that can get away with that sort of post. Because you've come to me (in your own little noob way) over PM's like an adult to speak of whatever issue you have. You're the kind of guy I like to get drunk with. But seriously, slack on the whining, that destroys that image and makes you come off like a lil' girl with tresses, crying whlist holding an empty bottle of Heineken.



i know i can get away with it thats why i said it, i can be impulsive sorry for that,  and how do you know about jy dress......have you been looking trough my windows again at friday night after i had a few heinekens?
tsk tsk bad darknes bad bad bad.


Thnx telkar for the agreeing on the tighten the leash idea, in some case respect is given and some is earned the whole comunity is to lose atm we basicly can do alot  tha we want and get away with it  and say alot and get away with it while  it used to be a strict thing.  i honestly think a forum moderator that directs people more towards the CC will be usefull, cause it will get out of hand or it already has gotten out of hand depends on the eye of the beholder. :)

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Aran

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #26 on: October 17, 2010, 03:07:58 PM »
so this is the time when we sit down together and down a few good dark Belgian beers  or Czech beers  (tsk tsk tsk  heineken)
and agree to get along eh  8)

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DM Tarokka

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #27 on: October 17, 2010, 03:19:35 PM »
Also some good German weizen beer...
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Aahz

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #28 on: October 17, 2010, 03:55:33 PM »
i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.

In my experience secrecy never increases feelings of goodwill. That said, I think disagreements between players, or players and a DM should be a private matter.  Opinions on server policy and rules however, should always be discussed openly.
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Zarathustra217

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #29 on: October 17, 2010, 04:34:13 PM »
I like the message of this topic and I agree to it, but I feel it should also be made clear that for the most part, we have a good, constructive discussion - it just doesn't claim that much attention as when it's not. Our five year development is an extensive example of how things have been gradually changed and tweaked in large part due to a good constructive communication process.

...

Oh, and speaking of - I feel the suggestion about keeping topics more on-topic is a good one.

Jay

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2010, 03:05:29 AM »
Also some good German weizen beer...

I don't drink. And before anyone says it, i'm still not a paladin in real life. I'm a cynical, misanthropic curmudgeon... I just hide it well.

I think it's good we actually have this thread, because while you may get a lot of (Positive and negative) feedback as the GM team, but players don’t generally see the result of it because it’s usually kept behind PM’s (To prevent the aforementioned flaming/whining de-railed threads). The “GM’s don’t care” myth is perpetuated by this one-way silence with it only being broken on a one-on-one basis when a GM writes back in a PM to a person who actually takes the time to complain.

So, now to the constructive part of my post:

Is there a way you can make a “GM Post Only” thread for the GM’s and CC to post in with a “You said so we did” ethic?
So it’s like a notice board for feedback, it’s non-postable so it stops stupid arguments erupting and it gives people a bit of feedback as players so they don’t feel like they are pouring their words onto deaf ears.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2010, 03:09:06 AM by Jay »

Minstrel

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #31 on: October 18, 2010, 07:27:02 AM »
Is there a way you can make a “GM Post Only” thread for the GM’s and CC to post in with a “You said so we did” ethic?
So it’s like a notice board for feedback, it’s non-postable so it stops stupid arguments erupting and it gives people a bit of feedback as players so they don’t feel like they are pouring their words onto deaf ears.

I think we kind of do that in the Announcements section. If you pay close attention to the change/update log, you'll often see changes that correspond to recent suggestions or feedback in the forums. It's just not made slap-in-the-face obvious.
Quote
I think it's good we actually have this thread, because while you may get a lot of (Positive and negative) feedback as the GM team, but players don’t generally see the result of it because it’s usually kept behind PM’s (To prevent the aforementioned flaming/whining de-railed threads). The “GM’s don’t care” myth is perpetuated by this one-way silence with it only being broken on a one-on-one basis when a GM writes back in a PM to a person who actually takes the time to complain.

We actually recieve a lot less complaints than you might expect, for whatever reasons. We've had issues where we had to address certain players in-game, and they tend to claim things like the CC not doing anything and the DM's ignoring them, whilst the grand total of posts to us they've submitted numbers zero.

Zarathustra217

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #32 on: October 18, 2010, 09:21:22 AM »
It would be somewhat unethical if we put whatever complaints there's been against a DM on public display. We don't do that with players either. But the mere fact that we do things like open polls or questionnaires to actively gather opinions should be evidence that we care about it and want to adjust to it - not to mention the Council, that's exactly for making sure communication isn't just one way (in either direction) and that you have someone to go to if you worry something is up.

Jay

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #33 on: October 18, 2010, 10:41:49 AM »
It would be somewhat unethical if we put whatever complaints there's been against a DM on public display. We don't do that with players either. But the mere fact that we do things like open polls or questionnaires to actively gather opinions should be evidence that we care about it and want to adjust to it - not to mention the Council, that's exactly for making sure communication isn't just one way (in either direction) and that you have someone to go to if you worry something is up.

Sorry i suppose I wasn't being clear enough. Perhaps it would be better to refer to my earlier example.
Hippo (Thankfully) complains about GM Cake to the GM team/CC rather then in a lengthy forum rant. He gets a message back saying the matter is being "looked into" and no further feedback is forthcoming. As you said publicly slamming GM Cake (or Player Hippo) would not help anyone and not enhance the community at all. But you could announce something along the lines of.
"It's come to our attention that sometimes players don't want to have there characters involved in plots for whatever reason, we'd just like to remind our players that a polite message to the GM during the event can usually resolve these things. We as a GM team are sorry if you sometimes feel a little railroaded, that was not our intention. Don't be afraid to speak out at the time if you have a problem. We won't bite."
It shows that someone has said something, it shows there's been a discussion and it shows that you can get something constructive out of a complaint rather then just the proverbial "We're looking into it" which can feel like a brush off if you don't see any results from it.

I think what i'm trying to say is, you guys work very hard. But it can't always be us criticising/commending you. You need to give us a little feedback every now and then, It makes me sad that you feel like you can't do it becuse of the criticism you open yourselves to.

3Piece

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #34 on: October 20, 2010, 10:40:56 AM »
Respect is indeed a two way street. You have to give it, to receive it. Not everyone is able to formulate opinions in a manner which qualifies as mature, polite, and by first showing what is positive about the event or topic on discussion. All to often it is a case of the one who is raising the complaint, thinking as though they are deserving of some sort of reward or owed something simply for choosing this server to RP in. They think with blinders on, only able to see the prize ahead of them which they feel they were denied wrongly. This is not always the case, even when it appears to be. Many players are quite possibly labeled as emo or a whiner simply because of such situations.

All it takes is taking a few steps back and looking at things from both points of view, open eyes, open minds, and understanding that these DM's who take so much of their time to provide for the player base, have feelings. They serve selflessly, giving players so much of their time, creativity, assistance, and more. For what in return? We are all human. We all make mistakes. We all need feedback that is constructive even if negative. The best experience example I can give, was after a session I actually enjoyed greatly, I got a short tell basically saying good RP. I would have been just as thrilled to have gotten one saying good RP with suggestions on how to improve. Feedback does not need to be long and detailed, it just needs to exist and not be censored.

When it comes to negative experiences, don't go to the forums to complain or flame the other person. That is the reason we have the CC members. Send one a PM explaining how you feel about it, why you feel it was negative. Don't then bash the other player or DM in tells. If something was wrong, it will be handled. Feedback is important when someone has been slighted, even if just to let that one who felt slighted know they were heard, the issue is being discussed, and handled. Even if all that is done is counseling the offender, ensure something is actually done. This ensures that the one who felt slighted, no matter the perceived compared to the actual degree of slight, is comforted in the knowledge that the incident is being or was handled. 

That said, even DM's make mistakes and censor even the best attempts at feedback. Censorship is wrong, no matter how you look at it. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and has the right to express it. Just because it does not agree with how one DM feels on the matter, does not then give that DM the right to censor. As for Heretic's comment that he will punch back, good. You should feel able to stand up for yourself, defend your ideas or opinions. I'm not saying let's all post inflammatory posts, but this to is a two way road. Unless there is rude insulting and inappropriate language, there's no reason for censorship.

Kudos to the DM's who endure the bashing and continue to provide immersion, horror, macabre, fear, and so forth to this grand setting I've come to enjoy so much. Kudos to the players who already understand the points in this thread and maybe even my long rant, and kudos to those who learn something by reading this thread. Let's be patient with those who don't fit our idea of what is "right", and lead by example. Everyone starts out somewhere, and travels a long road which we all share at some point.
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High_Priestess_of_Tinsel

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2010, 01:12:21 PM »
Inspired by this thread, and many similar ones where some players tend to immediately kill an idea and doomsay it before it sees light.

I've just had my attention drawn to this thread and reading this first post, I feel obliged to say that if having a negative opinion concerning something and expressing such is 'doomsaying' or 'killing an idea' then I shall keep my thoughts, feelings and opinions to myself in future, be they positive or negative.
Aside from this one.
When negative feedback is given, something should be done to beget positive feedback in the future. It should not be ignored and forgotten as if the thoughts and concerns of those involved mattered nothing.

Anarcoplayba

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2010, 02:41:20 PM »
Just read. Somewhat agreed. I'll try to keep my criticism in a respectful manner as I have always been trying to do (with more or less success).
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Iconoclast

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2010, 02:56:25 PM »


Something that I teach my students when giving one another feedback, which I myself put into practice, is to also make a good habit of pointing out the positives. If someone gets into a bad habit of only pointing out things that they perceive as wrong, or negative, before you know it anytime the rest of the community sees that they've made a post, we're already either rolling our eyes since that person has earned such a reputation.

However, if folks also are in a good habit of pointing out regularly the positives, when they do point out some negatives, folks will respect their opinions more likely.

Similarly, whenever I sit down with a student to look over their writing, I point out several things that they've done well in their work, before putting some focus on areas for improvement.


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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2010, 04:09:09 PM »


Something that I teach my students when giving one another feedback, which I myself put into practice, is to also make a good habit of pointing out the positives. If someone gets into a bad habit of only pointing out things that they perceive as wrong, or negative, before you know it anytime the rest of the community sees that they've made a post, we're already either rolling our eyes since that person has earned such a reputation.

However, if folks also are in a good habit of pointing out regularly the positives, when they do point out some negatives, folks will respect their opinions more likely.

Similarly, whenever I sit down with a student to look over their writing, I point out several things that they've done well in their work, before putting some focus on areas for improvement.

I agree with this completely, and personally always try to come full circle after the constructive criticism, to reemphasize the positives, but not in a way which diminishes or negates the points I tried to make that might have been less than positive.  (Hoorae for raising a child without benefit of a handbook as the ultimate social experiment)



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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2010, 06:13:45 PM »
Quote
When negative feedback is given, something should be done to beget positive feedback in the future. It should not be ignored and forgotten as if the thoughts and concerns of those involved mattered nothing.

Negative should be avoided. Constructive should be encouraged.

Also, feedback is retroaction on something. You cannot give feedback for something you haven't used, that's called an opinion.

The response to that topic was formed of opinions, some favorable, some less, some constructive, some negative. However, a vast majority of the opinions were just negative and not constructive in anyway. I, and other developers, fortunately don't base our design decisions on opinions expressed by players, but rather by the constructive feedback that is given.

HellsPanda

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #40 on: October 21, 2010, 06:24:14 PM »
Negative and constructive feedback aren't mutually exclusive.
Negative feedback can be constructive feedback, same as positive can be unconstructive.
but simply stating why something is wrong, and how it negativly affects me therefor it is bad
is both unconstructive and negative feedback