Author Topic: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"  (Read 3603 times)

Heretic

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"Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« on: October 16, 2010, 03:51:00 PM »
Inspired by this thread, and many similar ones where some players tend to immediately kill an idea and doomsay it before it sees light; allow me to quote to you a passage from a book I read, that I now consider a bible in what I do for work, I wish I had read and sinked this before, when I remember I was one of the vocal minorities whining, or complaining, because what I thought was feedback, wasn't really good feedback (despite if I was probably right most of the times), but completely inconsiderate criticism.

To some, this post will come down as condescending, patronizing, or else; I am sorry if it feels like that to you, but I feel its important to post, for the minority of the perceived as whiners out there (truly, to those that present inconsiderate negative feedback - and often) to see how the staff feels when you doomsay what the creatives vonlunteers try to do behind the scenes - for you.

Chapter 19   "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative" , from "The Art of Client Service"




My colleagues and I used to love to present to one particular client.

He was a very senior, very veteran, very smart guy. Whenever we would present, he would listen with great concentration. He would rarely interrupt.; instead, he would let us go through all the concepts and options we had prepared for his review. When we were done, he would stand up and address us. We presented to him many times, but his initial response would always go something like this: "First, I want to thank all of you for your hard work. Its clear from the presentation that you put tremendous amount of thought and effort into the assignment, and I appreciate that. And there are some terrific ads on the table. Now, lets go through each of the concepts one by one so I can give you feedback".

Sometimes, the input was minor; most of the time it was significant and as a result, we had to re-concept. No one ever complained; creative people loved this client, and would do anything for him. We did work for this client that was the best the agency could do. What was this client's secret?

It was simple. No matter what we presented, no matter how great, how good or how average it was, this client invariably expressed respect for the work and the people who made it. That was a great lesson for me. In my early days as an account person, I usually ran roughsod over creative people and their work. Writers and art directors would show me concepts, and I'd immediately say what was wrong with them. It didn't matter that I might be right; I was serving up the input wrong, and creative people simply turned me out.

I didn't understand my job was to improve the work, not to approve it.

I also didn't respect what it takes to do great creative. What it takes is enormous emotional commitment. When writers or art directors show their work, they are sharing a piece of themselves. They have sweated those ideas to life, and they know they are only as good as their last idea. If you don't respect that -- and in the beggining, I didn't -- but I learned --- you have no hope of helping to make work better.

You can't go about this way I used to, by launching in with a salvo of criticism. There's a better way to provide feedback. For example, if you're looking at a range of ideas, and some are killers, some have potential and some need to be killed, start with the killer ideas. Acknowledge them, and why.

Then with the ideas that have potential, start with what is right about them. Praise what is working. Then talk about what's not working and why. Suggest how these ideas can be made better. Tackle the ideas that deserve early death last. Even here, with ideas you think are marginal at best, there probably is something you like about each off them. Find one thing and acknowledge it before explaining why you think the ideas should be abandoned in favor of the stronger ones.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 04:06:24 PM by Heretic »

Aran

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2010, 04:08:49 PM »
funny enough  this piece of advice have very much value in every way of life.

In upper and middle management it is vital to getting the best out of the people you are responsible for (sparring not judging)

in contact with friends and family it is respect for ideas that isnt your own

thumbs up Heretic  :D

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DM Nocturne

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2010, 05:56:23 PM »
Emotional Intelligence certainly isn't a new topic in management and leadership theory, yet most people don't even know about it.

dutchy

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2010, 06:11:40 PM »
you still have a huge ego no matter what book you read big H, flaming someones work or trashing it or how ever it is called is alot easyer then to come up with either a better idea or a improvement on the idea.

people like to be right we like to be smart we like to be top dog and we like to be apreciated for what we do or say.

now we all have the first ones every single human on the planet  but the last one the (we like to be apreciated for what we do or say) is often forgotten, people see it as a given that others should listen doesnt work like that, always and i mean ALWAYS think of on how you would feel and think if you stood in the shoes of the other person, would you react the same? would you like the reaction or dislike it?
when you are able to do that you can see both sides of a single coin.
benefits of seeing both sides is simple   you understand the other party better and make your points come across better also you keep yourself in check to not say things that you shouldnt say.

ps/ i know 100% what i said in the other topic and i still stick with it but on the other side i see that its a celebration thing and that the team does its best to make it so.
pps/ big H you are more wrong then you are right but no worries i wont tell anybody.  :lol:

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2010, 07:59:50 PM »
"Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"

Am I the only person who thinks that that sentence is horrible English?

Respect what it takes to be greatly creative, yes.

Respect what it takes to have great creativity, fine.

Respect what it takes to do great things, fine.

...

Oh, but the article itself is interesting and has valid points.

That I just completely ignored by slating the minor bad point then glazing over the good part. Yay!

Maybe I'm wrong. I've just never heard 'Creative' used as something you 'Do', rather as something you 'Be'.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2010, 08:02:16 PM by Minstrel »

Heretic

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2010, 08:03:34 PM »
Its advertisement/marketing agency jargon. "To do great creative" is to come up with great ideas, concepts in advertisement.

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #6 on: October 16, 2010, 08:09:47 PM »
Its advertisement/marketing agency jargon. "To do great creative" is to come up with great ideas, concepts in advertisement.
Learn something new every day.


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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #7 on: October 17, 2010, 03:28:17 AM »
I'm sorry, you make a valid point but i still say respect is a two-way street. And if you want it you have to give it as well.
I respect the Dev team, and the hard work the GM's put into this server. But all the hard work in the world doesn't give them a right to dismiss or mock me when i raise a complaint, though admittedly the responsibility is on my shoulders to raise my issue in a mature, rational and polite manner. (And as you said, if possable suggest something contructive.)

Heretic

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #8 on: October 17, 2010, 03:56:47 AM »
I'm sorry, you make a valid point but i still say respect is a two-way street. And if you want it you have to give it as well.
I respect the Dev team, and the hard work the GM's put into this server. But all the hard work in the world doesn't give them a right to dismiss or mock me when i raise a complaint, though admittedly the responsibility is on my shoulders to raise my issue in a mature, rational and polite manner. (And as you said, if possable suggest something contructive.)

Well, I lost patience along the way for those who lack respect and I wont walk on eggshells to disrespect in return, because that sort of way of providing "feedback" provokes just those feelings. If anything, it makes you understand how it feels that to be disrespected. So show some consideration of the above and you will get respect from me - I have no respect for those who show no consideration, or those who always fall to negativity, failing to see the positives of a good heartened idea.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2010, 03:59:54 AM by Heretic »

Jay

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #9 on: October 17, 2010, 05:58:34 AM »
I'm sorry, you make a valid point but i still say respect is a two-way street. And if you want it you have to give it as well.
I respect the Dev team, and the hard work the GM's put into this server. But all the hard work in the world doesn't give them a right to dismiss or mock me when i raise a complaint, though admittedly the responsibility is on my shoulders to raise my issue in a mature, rational and polite manner. (And as you said, if possable suggest something contructive.)

Well, I lost patience along the way for those who lack respect and I wont walk on eggshells to disrespect in return, because that sort of way of providing "feedback" provokes just those feelings. If anything, it makes you understand how it feels that to be disrespected. So show some consideration of the above and you will get respect from me - I have no respect for those who show no consideration, or those who always fall to negativity, failing to see the positives of a good heartened idea.

So where would we draw the line at this? How easy is it to be simply ignored because you lack the eloquence to construct a valid argument?
(I'll use an example completely randomised, at the risk of offending anyone... unless you happen to be running a bizarre GM encounter right now.)
Lets say GM.. Cake. GM Cake decided to run a event with killer kittens, he thinks this is the -best- idea ever! Corners someone (player... Hippo) in the Vamp crypts and spams them with kittens until they die. Has the kittens drag the body (and equipment) to the surface so it's easily found.
Hippo is mad, hippo does not like that his grind was interrupted with kittens! Hippo hates kittens. So post on the forums about it.
What kind of response would you say is appropriate to express his displeasure at GM Cake?

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #10 on: October 17, 2010, 06:23:30 AM »
Why kittens? :)
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Jay

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2010, 06:53:31 AM »
Why kittens? :)
I needed an example that would not be a referance to any former plots run/running. I thought kittens would be a safe bet.

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2010, 06:55:37 AM »
Why kittens? :)

Because they're the ones you least expect of being capable of true evils......

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2010, 06:59:12 AM »
Lol I actually use kittens all the time to scare people :)

But I'm insane, we all know it!
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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #14 on: October 17, 2010, 07:20:38 AM »
So where would we draw the line at this? How easy is it to be simply ignored because you lack the eloquence to construct a valid argument?
(I'll use an example completely randomised, at the risk of offending anyone... unless you happen to be running a bizarre GM encounter right now.)
Lets say GM.. Cake. GM Cake decided to run a event with killer kittens, he thinks this is the -best- idea ever! Corners someone (player... Hippo) in the Vamp crypts and spams them with kittens until they die. Has the kittens drag the body (and equipment) to the surface so it's easily found.
Hippo is mad, hippo does not like that his grind was interrupted with kittens! Hippo hates kittens.  So post on the forums about it.
What kind of response would you say is appropriate to express his displeasure at GM Cake?

Here's where he went wrong:

Quote
So post on the forums about it.

'Criticism, complaints and feedback' that are generally negative that are posted on open forums are treated a lot differently (and a lot less seriously) to those submitted to the DM's directly, or through the CC. They tend to blow things out of proportion and raise people against the DM team as if it's some kind of revolution. Then you start having unrelated people chip in, people start twisting words, and nothing the DM's do about the issue short of keelhauling the offending DM and his family members will suffice any more. The thread stops being about one issue and becomes a bubbling rage pot of issues that should have been bought up when they were relevant instead of held back by people.

It's the difference between heading to your boss's boss and informing them that your manager has goofed up on something that's majorly annoyed and screwed you up, and standing in the workspace telling everyone who will listen about the management being bastards as loudly as you can, hence bringing in people who have little to nothing to do with the issue.

Whilst one complaint might be passed over and considered to just be a ranting player, when more start to pile up, eyebrows will be raised at the DM's behaviour, and then appropriate stuff will be done.

If you're worried about coming off as a whiner, post it through the CC with the request to be anonymous. Some people have done that, and the anonymity has been kept.

Basically, if you want any player/DM issue to get to the DM's and be considered seriously, send it straight to them, seriously. We have discussion/complaint forums, but they're generally best for systems and things involving development, major plots and the world at large, rather than player or DM behaviour.


As for the thread this thread was about, it did descend into nitpicking, whining, and more negativity than Empowered Energy Drain. The staff are usually in a position where people hammer on them with unreasonable arguments, twist their words against them and paint them as evil bastards because they can't so much 'fight back', since they're expected to remain calm and civil and reasonable, and not let things degrade into flame wars. We have to do a lot of walking on eggshells whilst people pelt us with eggs, since the slightest remark that can be taken negatively, WILL be taken horribly by certain people, and used as further ammunition against us.

That's the situation with forum threads. But with PM'ed conversations that are private, things tend to be a lot more controlled, and we can get through the discussion without having to fend off people who have popped up solely to criticize.

The result of the ranting in the forum thread has only served to cripple DM morale pretty bad, and likely mean less of them logging on when they otherwise would.

The result of a few PM's we've been sent has lead to things like allowing faction members to make a new PC that will instantly be involved in the faction for that week to allow for recruiting and faction RP in Barovia, and MPC's being able to create a low level monster for the event. It might not be much, but we're trying to make folks happy.

Go figure.

/end semi-ranting

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #15 on: October 17, 2010, 09:50:35 AM »
I believe that people try to express their opinions in the most clear, factual, and eloquent, way they can at the time. The degree of success they achieve is vastly variable however. The worst writer in the world can sometimes succeed brilliantly in communicating an idea and the best writer can fail horribly.

I would point out that not all ideas actually have much leeway to point out positive alternatives for. For an example from my own experience, the risk of corpse impairment on death. I think its a bad idea. I have heard all the reasons that other people like it and I still think its a bad idea, it has no merit, and should just be sent away in shame. Therefore it's not at all likely you are going to ever hear anything positive from me about it. Contrast this with my view of the risk of coming back as a Zombie. I think the idea has potential and I have suggested ways to tweak it here and there so that it enhances the setting without being overly frustrating.  See the difference? 

You can either try to hear and understand someones reasoning on things or dismiss, belittle, mock, or Ignore them. If you dismiss and ignore player A's opinion on Issue Y because you did not like what they had to say on issue X, that is not productive either. To paraphrase another long standing corporate saying "there is no such thing as bad feedback".

In my neck of the world you do not get praise just for effort, there must be favorable results. Efforts that fail are a tool of learning, you try something, it fails, you keep trying new things until you produce something of value, then you get your rewards and praise.

I learned that "Respect is not deserved, it is earned" and the best way to earn respect is in how you treat others. There is a night and day difference in hating a person's idea and hating the person. It can be terribly complicated. Generally people tend to see criticisms of their ideas and work as criticisms of themselves and it can be almost impossible to actually tell sometimes too, so much of what is said gets its meaning from how it was said and you just can't capture that in a written forum like this. People try to communicate the best way that can at the time, sometimes they express their ideas well sometimes not so well. However, I believe ideas should be expressed regardless. Less communication never solves anything, only more will.


"It never ceases to amaze me how bent out of shape adult people can get in a discussion on the best way to play make believe."

dutchy

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #16 on: October 17, 2010, 10:02:54 AM »
Yup atleast it is something minstrel.

oh heretic heretic heretic, to me what you wrote shows you are demoralised it is also the main reason you do not login and dm.
also you yes you i am targetting you atm have the awesome ability to disregard 85% of the playerbase as whiners or people that have potential drama so you avoid 85% of the player base.
i think it is safe to say that towards or concerning the server  you are depressed well thats the mood type that fits you best concerning this all.
these posts are great truly are but i said this befor you can not truly cant constantly have a go at the player base at most times you are even mean, in my own blunt way i would discribe it as simply beeing a dick with the replies, now i got a funny bone and often see trough it but alot of players do not and you offend them they even bark louder you bark back and BAM more negativity and drama.
its a spiral action reaction      and you know you are better then that and above that.

feeling me darkness? :D

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Aran

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #17 on: October 17, 2010, 10:54:51 AM »
In general any DM put them selves up as a target and a workhorse  .................For US

it is one of the most unthankfull jobs at times because a large proportion that get good experiences take it for granted, and any that feel slighted will give feedback.


These people are human too (hmm   i guess a few of them have taken big DP hits in real life :mrgreen:) and it is fully understandable they react thus.


this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.


they listen
they decide

if ya dont agree choose different CC members thats how democracy works  8)

come on  cut them some slack, and play along

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #18 on: October 17, 2010, 11:16:50 AM »
Quote
oh heretic heretic heretic, to me what you wrote shows you are demoralised it is also the main reason you do not login and dm.

We've lost a good number of DMs to those same reasons. I'd say that two thirds of the DMs we lose, either during apprenticeship or later on is because of morale. People complain that they want more DMs, but with a negative attitude and complaints about specific DMs being posted openly so that everyone can punch on the person, no wonder they don't last.

What Minstrel said is spot on; if you have concerns about a DM, DMing style or anything, don't make an open post about it, use the actual proper communication channels. As a manager, I have to give criticism or warn employees at times about their behaviour or their actions and I'd never ever do it publically because you just don't do that. It's a total lack of respect. I always thought that this was granted and everyone knew it, but I guess not.

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #19 on: October 17, 2010, 11:57:16 AM »
There are valid points all 'round.

Its demoralising to try and instill fear, build up dynamics around, ease into a plot, bring consequences to a charachter and to have them ignore it, not accept it, dismiss it for wich'ever reason.
As a DM its our job to insure our -Guests- on this great server have the best gameplay we can offer without chasing our own tail to much and bending to player demands.
Ofcourse, we have all been players on the Dm Client, we understant that there is no better DM interaction than one that furthers -your own- story, enhancing it and pushing it forwards.
But in return you must understand this is Ravenloft, fear, insecurity, horror, its been said millions of times in millions of threads, this all revolves around RolePlay the good, the bad, the ugly.
From ritualistic offerings, the rightious standing against the perills of the night, curling up beside a fire side with a Tsuika and telling tale's by the fireside...but as dm's, we must also bring the setting to you, wich sometimes hits closer to home.
Silly choises cannot be rewarded by a slap on the wrist and a pat on the head, if you want to live and breathe Ravenloft and take the bad with the good, consequences can truely enhance your experience as it shapes charachters and opens a lot more doors for Players.

As for open complaints of the Team, ofcourse, we are only human.
If there are issue's with any member of the team, we are all friendly people in general, a simple PM can lighten the mood without putting the 'Dumbass' hat on the Team member and dropping them to the wolves.
Ofcourse its natural to vent you concerns and frustrations, and the more that listen lets it vent swifter, but at the expence of others?

My views on the matter, and must we debate on, or can we just RolePlay?

Heretic

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #20 on: October 17, 2010, 01:11:47 PM »
this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.

I think you are catching on here. Simply put, and I speak for most DM's; we are tired of being punched on by kids with a strong sense of entitlement. I will punch you back. The power lies with you to just show some consideration for the staff, dev. DMs and CC, it will be returned to you once you start showing consideration in the way you behave in your posting when someone gives of their free time to bring an idea forth.


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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2010, 01:29:19 PM »
Lol I actually use kittens all the time to scare people :)

But I'm insane, we all know it!

Let's start from this again? How insane is Tarokka? Open poll!
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dutchy

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2010, 01:31:27 PM »
this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.

I think you are catching on here. Simply put, and I speak for most DM's; we are tired of being punched on by kids with a strong sense of entitlement. I will punch you back. The power lies with you to just show some consideration for the staff, dev. DMs and CC, it will be returned to you once you start showing consideration in the way you behave in your posting when someone gives of their free time to bring an idea forth.



true like some players do for the playerbase you do for the dms...but it does hmm make you come over like a bad person wich you aint you are just to friggin tired of all the problems and lack of respect as most of the dms do difrance is you got a mouth and you use it.
to counter this  the dm team should best delete or lock posts that go that route and say go to the CC and tell your concerns, but on the other side people might see it as a strict forim hand that theyl dislike.

i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.

My last post here was not an attack btw  was from one guy to another and shoulda been a PM now that i reread it.

keep on opening that mouth but dont lower to the  level of the idiots ain worth it DM darkness   :lol:

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Heretic

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #23 on: October 17, 2010, 01:43:51 PM »
this thread sort of proves some of what Heretic said in it self.

everyone feels its a free hit to say something about an event or a DM.

but if said DM give back they "disregards the playerbas" or "dont give shit"


The CC and DM's role is to listen/read/experience Feedback, and make judgement upon that, thats what we have chosen them for (the CC) and for DM's  thats the ones that use their time to give us the best experience.

I think you are catching on here. Simply put, and I speak for most DM's; we are tired of being punched on by kids with a strong sense of entitlement. I will punch you back. The power lies with you to just show some consideration for the staff, dev. DMs and CC, it will be returned to you once you start showing consideration in the way you behave in your posting when someone gives of their free time to bring an idea forth.



true like some players do for the playerbase you do for the dms...but it does hmm make you come over like a bad person wich you aint you are just to friggin tired of all the problems and lack of respect as most of the dms do difrance is you got a mouth and you use it.
to counter this  the dm team should best delete or lock posts that go that route and say go to the CC and tell your concerns, but on the other side people might see it as a strict forim hand that theyl dislike.

i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.

My last post here was not an attack btw  was from one guy to another and shoulda been a PM now that i reread it.

keep on opening that mouth but dont lower to the  level of the idiots ain worth it DM darkness   :lol:

You are the only noob that can get away with that sort of post. Because you've come to me (in your own little noob way) over PM's like an adult to speak of whatever issue you have. You're the kind of guy I like to get drunk with. But seriously, slack on the whining, that destroys that image and makes you come off like a lil' girl with tresses, crying whlist holding an empty bottle of Heineken.


Telkar

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Re: "Respect What It Takes to Do Great Creative"
« Reply #24 on: October 17, 2010, 01:59:24 PM »
Aren't there numerous threads that have been made about Player/DM etiquette like this? I feel like reminders like this keep popping up quite regularly, which tells me this method isn't working right. So the main message is usually not to "vent" negativity in public regarding some isolated incidents brought forth by DMs. Sometimes these things happen in topics where the topic's initial subject wasn't meant for such negativity. A way to prevent that is to take more control of the topic, and use that "off topic" smiley much more, and perhaps point to the CC instead. Sometimes the topics themselves are meant to be negative towards some individuals. Why can't DMs just create a sort of a quote stamp, with references to the various topics that address public venting like this one, and point to the list of DMs and CC for PMing, then lock the topic and done deal? Perhaps those who make such topics might explode, feeling grievously offended by it, and make matters worse that way, but to me personally, I think it might just be for the better. At least it would be worth the try.

Bring in a Nazi forum moderator.  :evillol:

Nah, really, just someone level headed who can follow through the possible policy I described above.  ;)

3 replies before I could post this, with one quote in the spirit of what I've thinking:

i honestly think the dm team should tigthen the leash again players complain lock it or send a pm that they should go to the CC that way nothing gets published and respect lvls will atleast SEEM to stay normal and no one is the wiser beside the ones involved.