Pistols vs Crossbows

[Minstrel]

Its confusing too because wands (like a wand of missiles, for example) have the activate object to use and they work at a much greater range than the pistols do.

  A wand of missiles is just mimicking the spell Magic Missile.

A pistol is like a wand using the 'Unique Action' thing, like you see on the paper and food and such, which is hardcoded to be that ridiculously short range.

Such is my understanding, anyway.

In the end, the pistols are still outlawed in Barovia because they're at a technology level higher than the setting. If they were far more powerful than crossbows/longbows, they'd be used all the time, which would be against the setting.

[herkles]

In the end, the pistols are still outlawed in Barovia because they're at a technology level higher than the setting. If they were far more powerful than crossbows/longbows, they'd be used all the time, which would be against the setting.

That is just 1 domian, Dementlieu has them and much more. Richemulot, Mordent, Lamordia, and I bet even Borca has them. guns are not against the spirit of the mood or the setting, they are actually part of it. After all, silver bullets are common trope for were-wolf stories. Dementlieu's military is actually described as one of the most technological advanced armies in the core, they have canons, muskets, and various weaponry that existed back then.

[Isivien]

At point blank range, a crossbow has more 'power' than a 15th century pistol, and a longbow has even more.  Both are more accurate too...remember '10 paces, turn and fire" ?
the reason for that was that at 20 paces a pistol had a pretty decent chance of missing, no matter how skilled the user.  I've had the opportunity to fire a couple, it was hilarious watching certified marksmen (and markswomen) trying to hit a target with period quality weapons, powder and balls...not modern blackpowder versions which are much, much more poerful and accurate, on a par with cartridge weapons out to 100 metres.

firearms were horrendously expensive to make at the outset and really only became popular because they were a lot smaller than a crossbow, took much less training and practice than a longbow (and casting musket balls was a lot easier and faster than making arrows), they could be stored and carried loaded for extended periods and once mechanical locks came around they could be concealed more easily, giving the punch of a dagger at more than arm's length.  Most muskets were 'point and click' used in lrge numbers without really aiming....it took almost no time, probably a day,  to train soldiers to reload a musket 'by the numbers' and fire as a unit...it took a lifetime to create an archer.

a matchlock, or even a wheellock pistol shouldn't have nearly the effective range of a crossbow or even a sling and I'd even add a -1 or more to hit outside of close range...sort of the reverse of the 'point blank shot' feat.

[herkles]

The thing is that demtilue is based more around the 17th and 18th centuries. They do have flintlocks and other weapons of that time period. I would have to do some reaserch to see what the weapons were like back then.

The domain of borca is more closer to the time around the 15th century as borca is very simillar to renaissance italy.

[Psyche]

Thread necromancy

[Feronius]

Not tried out any rifle or pistol yet, but ermm.. this topic seems relevant.

The reason I did not try them out was the INSANELY expensive price.
Which is alright, possibly.. but not if the range is that short. They need to give more worth for their coins.
(Or lower the pricing? the cheapest gun I've seen was around 900 without any ammo or gunpowder.)

[dutchy]

not everyone should wield guns thats why theres a high price the port where you can buy them is an insanly rich place thus the prices there are higher aswell.

in barovia they are illigal, as for the range its game mechanics i think they said  atm i am to lazy to go trough all the pages but am pretty sure its not dooable cause of the way they created the item (gun)

[herkles]

yea, tis sad that they can't be altered, but hey they do exist in game for people in the port to use. As for the price, 900 gold for an rp prop, is expensive, but as dutchy said, the port is an expensive place. Look at the prices for the governor hotel. Heck their is a bottle off wine over 100 gold

Anyways, there does not seem to make them have a longer rangge. but I am not sure what range of a 18th century flintlock pistol had.

[Gorasin]

The effective range of most muskets I have found has been listed as 50 Meters with a max of 150 - 200 meters range. These being long arm Flintlocks I doubt a pistol packs as much punch. Considering the first range increment is 30 meters for a longbow and 33 Meters for a composite longbow. Their Maximum ranges are 300 Meters for the long bow and 330 Meters for the composite longbow.Please note we are talking Muskets not pistols. While everyone keeps talking about flintlocks being better than bows and armor. The constant foolishness I noticed is that is everyone thinks its the pistol. No it was the musket stop comparing the pistol to the longbow or crossbow.Everything I have read has stated a flintlock pistol was effective at maybe a third with a maximum of a third of that of a musket. Therefore we are looking at 16 Meters with a maximum of 66 Meters. These numbers are abysmal but slightly realistic. So there for a longbow and even a crossbow have further range just not as deadly . I would just like to say this one more time Stop comparing crossbows and longbows to pistols and crying about range. When you are looking up your information on flintlocks they mostly talk about muskets and rifles. Pistols are regulated to talk of them being used for dueling and not war. War was done with muskets which had greater range.

[Feronius]

16 to 66 meters? but from what I'm reading here..
The max represented flintlocke range would be roughly around the what.. less than 10 meters?

So there's exactly your point. Ofcourse 300 meters would be silly, but near-melee range is just.. silly as well.

[dutchy]

Going to burst all your bubbles people please let it rest the awnser has been given already, if you wish to discuss range and such of old skool weps make a tavern topic for it.

I don't know how the range of the weapon is determined. I'll bring it up at the next dev meeting though.

No need.

The range is unfortunate, but something that is more or less hardcoded. It's impossible in NwN to add new ranged weapons (for some absurd reason) because you cannot link ammunitions to newly created ranged weapons in haks. The simplest way to do guns would have been to have stacks of 1-2 bullets that would have been equippable and could have been fired like a normal bow. However, due to those mechanical restrictions, that's not feasible. Since you'll never be able to "attack" with your pistol, the only possible workaround is using the Activate Object at Range ability that you can add to an item, this has a limited range however, but it's the best we got. Afterwards, it's a matter of scripting it so it mimicks actual pistol firing rules.

In a nutshell, it's impossible to create new ranged weapons (like a pistol), so you have to find a workaround and that's what we did. It's not perfect, but it's as good as it gets. Pistols have advantages that bows don't have such as a lot more damage and a chance to knock down the opponent. They're primarly a RP tool however.

[Gorasin]

Ever hear the term armed to the teeth. There is a basis behind that. Pirates used to have multiple loaded pistols and knives in ever pocket they had , a flintlock in each hand and a knife in their teeth.Flintlocks were rarely combat reloaded. They were fired and dropped and then you grabbed another loaded one out of a pocket. Problem is people want them to be fire and reload like a bow. No going to happen they were rarely used that way. Early black powder weapons were shot then dropped when getting close to melee.  I know movies are a bad reference to use but in pirates of the Caribbean did you ever see them use the pistols really far out of melee? Not really they used muskets for range.

[herkles]

hmm that begs the question than, is it possible to script it so that one is able to duel wield guns? But Gorasin is right in the fact that pistols of the era are single shot guns. Just a shame that muskets do not exist IG, not sure if it is possible to have muskets or not though.  Though I do think some might be not liking the concept of being armed to the teeth because it is montarly expensive, as guns aren't cheap IG, so I suppose that might have something to do with people thinking they are to be like bows.

[Minstrel]

hmm that begs the question than, is it possible to script it so that one is able to duel wield guns? But Gorasin is right in the fact that pistols of the era are single shot guns. Just a shame that muskets do not exist IG, not sure if it is possible to have muskets or not though.  Though I do think some might be not liking the concept of being armed to the teeth because it is montarly expensive, as guns aren't cheap IG, so I suppose that might have something to do with people thinking they are to be like bows.

I doubt the pirates found it cheap either. They just took 'em off dead people!

[herkles]

However, there are no spawns that carry pistos, so perhaps some shoddy pistols can be added to the game. crappy guns, that have a chance to explode but they are still guns, and/or perhaps blacksmiths could make guns?

[Geiger]

Yes. Could it be made so alchemists can make gunpowder (not just for guns, bombs anyone?)

Smiths could very much make guns - and bullets.

Also does sneak attack work into guns? I hope it does.

Also can we see the damage we do when we shoot?

Also what are the stats on guns damage, crit range, and multiplier?

[StRaven]

Typically though 'gunslingers' at that time would have several pistols held in a bandoleer, each loaded just before battle.

Then each shot in turn and thrown off, covering fire, or a quick kill. Mostly for making distance between yourself and the oppopnent, and when in close range you'd draw a longsword for defence and a long dagger for attack.

Guns were collected back afterwards repaired if needed and reloaded before next battle.

You wouldnt keep them loaded for no reason, due to the easily ignitable gunpowder or if the gunpowder would get wet.

You wouldnt load them in battle, unless entrenced or pinned down by opposing fire.

[respawnaholic]

Typically though 'gunslingers' at that time would have several pistols held in a bandoleer, each loaded just before battle.

Then each shot in turn and thrown off, covering fire, or a quick kill. Mostly for making distance between yourself and the oppopnent, and when in close range you'd draw a longsword for defence and a long dagger for attack.

Guns were collected back afterwards repaired if needed and reloaded before next battle.

You wouldnt keep them loaded for no reason, due to the easily ignitable gunpowder or if the gunpowder would get wet.

You wouldnt load them in battle, unless entrenced or pinned down by opposing fire.

Yes. One of the reasons for massed ranks in musketry was to keep a steady volume of fire on a target while others were reloading. Not really an option given the number of people involved in a typical engagement. In a small skirmish trying to reload a musket would be downright suicidal. It was much more common to fire off once and then resort to shock tactics (read melee.) Prior to the American Civil War and genuinely rifled weapons musketry was not a decisive weapon in battle. It was really used more to break up and demoralise an enemy prior to an infantry assault or a cavalry charge.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Necrobumping this to let you all know the range issue has been fixed by replacing the "Cast Spell: Unique Ability" property with "Activate Item (Long Range)" property. This will allow you to shoot from basically any distance as long as you can see your target. Lockleed is working on a fix for the XP issue as well. These fixes should be in by the nest update or thereabouts.

[Nemien Callishan]

However, during combat equipping a pistol and then having to "use item" to fire it is problematic.

Don't forget you have to use two other items on it first to laod it. And the pistol has to be in your hands otherwise it won't let you use those tiems and telsl you you have to be holding it which takes even longer to do. It's a lot of radial clicking because you can't htokey all those actions (seriously, you can't hotkey some of them). factor all that in and it becomes even deadlier to use.

Incidentaly the "risk free" cheapo pistol has a range that'll easily cover one of the Governor's hotel hallways from one end to the other. Maybe a it less. The rat was running towards me at the time I was finaly able to fire. Still you'd think a slow double crossbow reload time could just be scripted in instead of all that clunky manual radial menu clicking.

Necrobumping this to let you all know the range issue has been fixed by replacing the "Cast Spell: Unique Ability" property with "Activate Item (Long Range)" property. This will allow you to shoot from basically any distance as long as you can see your target. Lockleed is working on a fix for the XP issue as well. These fixes should be in by the nest update or thereabouts.

Does this eman we'll need our existing firearms replaced? I recall the last time the firearms got tweaked mine was deleted since that particular model hadn't been included in the updated versions and I had to ask for a replacement. A lot......

[Sewerprince]

If possible, I think it'd be nice to dual-wield pistols, thus having a "Gun-slinger" character a slight possiblity =P If not a tad silly

[Elfric]

That's not silly at all really, it just might not be possible. Now if it had the gun ability, and was a shield... [Dreams of dual wielding Pistols]

[Bluebomber4evr]

However, during combat equipping a pistol and then having to "use item" to fire it is problematic.

Don't forget you have to use two other items on it first to laod it. And the pistol has to be in your hands otherwise it won't let you use those tiems and telsl you you have to be holding it which takes even longer to do. It's a lot of radial clicking because you can't htokey all those actions (seriously, you can't hotkey some of them). factor all that in and it becomes even deadlier to use.

Incidentaly the "risk free" cheapo pistol has a range that'll easily cover one of the Governor's hotel hallways from one end to the other. Maybe a it less. The rat was running towards me at the time I was finaly able to fire. Still you'd think a slow double crossbow reload time could just be scripted in instead of all that clunky manual radial menu clicking.

There's no way around this because the game engine won't allow new ranged weapons without taking out existing ones. You should be able to hotkey the Activate Item (Long Range) usage to fire the gun, however.

Necrobumping this to let you all know the range issue has been fixed by replacing the "Cast Spell: Unique Ability" property with "Activate Item (Long Range)" property. This will allow you to shoot from basically any distance as long as you can see your target. Lockleed is working on a fix for the XP issue as well. These fixes should be in by the nest update or thereabouts.

Does this eman we'll need our existing firearms replaced? I recall the last time the firearms got tweaked mine was deleted since that particular model hadn't been included in the updated versions and I had to ask for a replacement. A lot......

It won't be like the last time. That was an issue because the 2das we were using for the guns had been overwritten by something in the CEP and we had to move them to another 2da line so the older guns were causing people to crash. If you want to have a range on the guns you'll need to have them replaced, but they will otherwise still work and not cause crashes.

[Geiger]

Would it be possible in the future to list pistols under 'simple weapons'? They're supposed to be one of the most simplistic missile weapons - very much in the same manner as the crossbow in that all it takes if someone to show you to load, point, click.

[Bluebomber4evr]

Would it be possible in the future to list pistols under 'simple weapons'? They're supposed to be one of the most simplistic missile weapons - very much in the same manner as the crossbow in that all it takes if someone to show you to load, point, click.

D&D rules list them as exotic. We're not going to change that.