Current XP and Spawn System and Overall Satisfaction

[Avatar6666]

From the most recent XP topic:

The XP gains have been overhauled, but actually to reward risk taking more (and the trivial less). The entire calculation was restructured though, since I finally pulled myself together and made a proper diagram over the XP gains, revealing certain imbalances.

What you should keep in mind, however, is that your gain is still limited by the cap, meaning that if you were constantly moving in the "slow-down" section and now in a more balanced, your total XP gain over time will be the same.

I'm continously monitoring the general XP buffer status, and it all seems fine. Average is about 7,300 which is the ideal. You are gaining less XP , but the buffer settings hasn't changed, meaning the progression over time is unchanged. What may be experienced should only be periodical differences, that'll eventually even themselves out.

Unless you are getting the messages of "neglecting your path" or "longing for new adventures" you aren't at risk of falling behind. Last I checked, the server average is at a balance between pushing the cap and being in full balance with it.

But will check the RP XP and double check everything else too.

Don't take it personally and listen to what people have to say please. These are what people perspective are and its their own opinions, This is in no way an attack on you personally. I know you might see the server differently from where you sit on the mod and i know that people work their buts off to make this server more then just a standard server.  Again i say this is in no way an attack at you personally. If most of these people did not care about this serve, i suspect most would not post. The Staff work their butts off , I know i did when i was a staff member of a server. Were just trying to make the server better.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

But honestly, you make me wonder why I should bother.

Hug? *puppy eyes*

Groups hug ! ...We luuuuve you, ye know that right ? Luuuve you in none gay way ... but luuuve ye like i luv eating noodles ! And we know how much you done for us, how much you spend countless hours improving the server ! We just whinny b"#�ches ! I blaming EO for this !

+1 and roflmao at Mayvind "none gay way" haha

Here's a none gay heart for you in return then ...

...

Don't take it personally and listen to what people have to say please. These are what people perspective are and its their own opinions, This is in no way an attack on you personally. I know you might see the server differently from where you sit on the mod and i know that people work their buts off to make this server more then just a standard server.  Again i say this is in no way an attack at you personally. If most of these people did not care about this serve, i suspect most would not post. The Staff work their butts off , I know i did when i was a staff member of a server. Were just trying to make the server better.

Perhaps, but this is becoming too easy an argument, and a fairly old one too. You can't just say whatever you want, in whatever way you like, not caring to carefully read the counter argument and pay heed to it - to then expect something constructive coming out of your "feedback". You'd expect a ten year old to have better concept of the principles of social interaction.

[HellsPanda]

I don't think the problem if it actually is a problem lies with the scripts, it lies with our perspective. and it lies with the spawns, it should be faster. Why because I am tired of taking the time to gather a full party only to go to a place, and find it at low spawn, or if I scouted it [I do this alot, I watch the spawns] then some solo cleric has cleared it all out.

what do we need to change this perspective? new dungeons for low and mid would be appreciated, a faster spawning script... sure people would love that.

As for the RP XP, I think the problem there lies more in the mindset of the playerbase and lack of active DMs [due to burnout], I know where my problem there lies, do you yours?

[Bad_Bud]

My contribution to this discussion is...

It may be true that gaining less experience leads to the same progression over time if you play one character, but this takes away the ability of someone to play multiple characters at a time, or play a character casually and expect them to advance.  Having multiple characters spices up the world, and it makes people less hesitant to accept consequence, knowing they have someone else to play when something happens to their main character.

That's my take.  It seems a player must dedicate their soul to a single character in able to progress, but that's not always fun.  Playing a level twenty character a majority of the time, I find most people don't want to travel to dungeons with me because they won't gain very much experience, so I play lower level characters.  But now when I switch to a lower level character to dungeon with friends, it's as if I hardly make any progress.  Minor characters are characters too!

I do understand your argument, but I think fails to take into account the desire to play multiple characters.

[Time_Stomped]

My XP gain is perfectly fine, because everyone runs off to get herbs/dungeon and at night takes off immediately before I get to have anything close to a group for XP.  Then they complain when they find a difficult encounter in the near ethereal.

Nothing is stopping new herbalism trainees.  There are plenty of herbalists around buying up herbs.  If you pick your own herbs you are fine.

Deliveries are good coin to lowbies if they bothered to use a pack ox and some help.

Most of the unsatisfied with the system points are moot aside from the happenstance of habitually sparse dungeons.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

My contribution to this discussion is...

It may be true that gaining less experience leads to the same progression over time if you play one character, but this takes away the ability of someone to play multiple characters at a time, or play a character casually and expect them to advance.  Having multiple characters spices up the world, and it makes people less hesitant to accept consequence, knowing they have someone else to play when something happens to their main character.

That's my take.  It seems a player must dedicate their soul to a single character in able to progress, but that's not always fun.  Playing a level twenty character a majority of the time, I find most people don't want to travel to dungeons with me because they won't gain very much experience, so I play lower level characters.  But now when I switch to a lower level character to dungeon with friends, it's as if I hardly make any progress.  Minor characters are characters too!

I do understand your argument, but I think fails to take into account the desire to play multiple characters.

Actually, even with multiple characters, I doubt many would really fall behind. It's very rare that I see anyone being even near that point. If you want, we can try to evaluate this more precisely with anyone having multiple character that they play over a simultaneous period.

Concerning the spawn rates, as I mentioned, it is something I am evaluating at current. It is a part of the system though that you can receive hints of where the high spawns are by talking to certain NPCs. Perhaps this needs to be made more obvious, but I think a part of it is to accept - for good and bad - that it'll be different places you find high spawn over time.

[HellsPanda]

oh right... Constantin really shouldn't know about the Demos spawn anymore, should he?

[Bad_Bud]

I'm referring more to a 3:1:1 ratio, not a 1:1.  Secondary characters, not double main.

I know Sheltatha plays quite a few characters...

[Emomina]

I'm referring more to a 3:1:1 ratio, not a 1:1.  Secondary characters, not double main.

I know Sheltatha plays quite a few characters...

I have two played as mains.  Both get played about 10-15 hours a week. I have never had issue with the xp gain per se. Only issue I have is getting groups and spawns, but that is my own fault and nothing with scripts or systems.

I believe you about xp gain not being changed, but anyone that has played here for years notices less rewarding xp messages than they used to be regarding rp xp. Perhaps its just perception, and change in messages.

[melzaren]

I'm referring more to a 3:1:1 ratio, not a 1:1.  Secondary characters, not double main.

I know Sheltatha plays quite a few characters...

I have two played as mains.  Both get played about 10-15 hours a week. I have never had issue with the xp gain per se. Only issue I have is getting groups and spawns, but that is my own fault and nothing with scripts or systems.

I believe you about xp gain not being changed, but anyone that has played here for years notices less rewarding xp messages than they used to be regarding rp xp. Perhaps its just perception, and change in messages.

One thing to consider is that just because the XP system hasn't changed, it doesn't mean the conditions of the server haven't changed in away that has affected XP gains.   I've noticed there are basically "hot-spots" here for hunting:

beatles, crypts (under sanctuary), sewers, werewolf cave, the 3-vampires-tombstone-dungeon, appear to be the really popular ones (to name a few)

These dungeons are all great because they're easy to get to.  This makes logistical sense because MANY MANY players have busy lifes and can't make an hour-long IC walk to a dungeon.  The thing is, because these dungeons are so great and easy to get to they are more liable to be visited frequently and subsequently be empty.

Furthermore, the longer the server stays up, the higher level everybody becomes, and the easier it becomes for 1 individual to farm a dungeon and clear it out, compounding the "empty dungeon" issue.

Additionally, the more popular the server becomes, the more these "hot-spots" will be farmed as well, and subsequently, the more people will complain or be disheartened at the inability to find good hunts.

The only solutions I can come up with is to crank the spawn rate, or add enough "hot-spots" to make everyone happy without turning the server in to a farm-fest.

The third solution, which I think is the best solution, would be for this place to hire on a plethora of new DM's to bring the ratio of players-to-DM's to a more desirable place,  which would pretty much solve 95% of the problems in this thread.
 

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

I'm referring more to a 3:1:1 ratio, not a 1:1.  Secondary characters, not double main.

I wasn't referring to a double main either (did I imply that?)

I don't think it really takes that many hours of playing a character to follow along decently.

But, on the other hand, isn't it becoming too pointless if characters that are only played one or two hours each week progressed the same as your main characters?

...

There's actually two things being discussed here - whether XP rate is too little, causing people to gain less over time (which above topics are mainly about) and then about the matter of depopulated dungeons. The latter part is something I'll look at, evaluating the spawn levels - but we are also constantly adding new places to dungeon.

One thing to consider though, judging from area usage numbers, perhaps more feedback on why certain dungeons are left empty might be relevant here though. Many are scarcely used.

/ADD:

oh right... Constantin really shouldn't know about the Demos spawn anymore, should he?

Yeah, just fixed that last update

[HellsPanda]

Melzaren, they are already working on bringing in more DMs, but I believe they are being extremly cautious to avoid any corrupt or bad DMs. they wouldnt help at all, and they would do damage to the server. And it takes time to train a good DM, especially into the systems and scripts the DMs apparantly have on this server. So it would take time. As for new dungeons, I am all for it, if they are well suited for the server and placed in a logical place. I would love to see the Aboleth dig its way up from the old Demos lair, or some undead monsters to use the Pit again. Some Goblyns for a nice low - mid level dungeon. Do something more with Zeklos keep.

Another thing that I remembered that changed the XP rate, is the changes to Lore stones [was silly how effective that was, and it was a needed change] Even if I would love to see more of them, but inside Dungeons, to give some Lore about the dungeon. I love lore

[Springer]

I think that some dungeons are too popular (especially those near Constantine lodge)and just dont have enough time for proper respawn before next party or solo char arrives. During the peak time when it is 30 and more people online it is probably impossible to find a decent spawn in these dungeons. On the contrary every time I went with a group to invidians it was at full spawn, same with silver mines, but those are high risk dungeons and need a mid to high level party to complete.

[Strigoi]

its funny, because i remember at one point there was a bug and all the spawns were constantly mid to high spawn levels. and people complained on the forums that they couldn't tackle them....

just an observation  

but seems a bit contradictory.


would it be possible to make a system that spawned creatures depending on the players group rating? that way if players want harder challenges they would NEED to find a group. and that way players would always have an appropriate challenge? just an idea.

[Avatar6666]

its funny, because i remember at one point there was a bug and all the spawns were constantly mid to high spawn levels. and people complained on the forums that they couldn't tackle them....

just an observation  

but seems a bit contradictory.


would it be possible to make a system that spawned creatures depending on the players group rating? that way if players want harder challenges they would NEED to find a group. and that way players would always have an appropriate challenge? just an idea.

Actually i really like that idea.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

would it be possible to make a system that spawned creatures depending on the players group rating? that way if players want harder challenges they would NEED to find a group. and that way players would always have an appropriate challenge? just an idea.

That is the default NWN behaviour more or less. We parted with what system because it let to very OOC-oriented behaviour and logic (what you describe would be too) and repetitive farming of same dungeon.

[Strigoi]

well it seems that having this sort of spawn dungeoning system is to weed out power grinding. but at the same time when the server population is up (like has been lately) the spawns are normally down as well.

so seems to me no matter what, there will always be that problem with this sort of Monster Spawn system.

[Dhark]

An option of removing the XP messages plz.

Oh and I loved it when everything was at max spawn, forced co-opperation

[EO]

well it seems that having this sort of spawn dungeoning system is to weed out power grinding. but at the same time when the server population is up (like has been lately) the spawns are normally down as well.

so seems to me no matter what, there will always be that problem with this sort of Monster Spawn system.

I think, if I remember correctly, that the system accounts for server population to an extent.

[huffel]

Maybe the old system with more danger could help.
People can go grinding, but with much more fear, and thinking twice if it's worth it.
I think we can all agree that fear is much better than boredom.
I am against grinding and xp hunting, but I am much more against finding nothing, which leads to boredom.
I'd rather die more, lose more money and even spend more time dead than just walking.
I can handle dying as a consequence of my actions and choices (like fighting something i shouldn't or not running away when i should).

I like that. If dungeons would be more dangerous, people would also automatically gather and go in groups. About the thrill: Because I wasn�t able to find any excitement for my main, I went to Fane Forest near Barovia village, full knowing that I could die easily with one or two hits. And when the darklings and ogres came�man, my heart was pounding and I think my adrenaline went through the roof. But it was SO much better than boredom!

The spawn rate of dungeons is absolutely ridiculous. We often have up to 65 players on at peek times and it takes about 5 days of a dungeon being totally uninterrupted for it to become full spawn. The only high spawn dungeon I have seen for months is Perfidus, simply because it requires a skilled and balanced group to complete. In my opinion it should take no more than 24 hours for a dungeon to become high-full spawn.
Incidentally, the OP stated that spawns are full after a server reset. This is not true, resets have no effect on the spawn system.

I don't do dungeon much like I used to is because of the spawn rate i guess, I dont think there many that remember elites vampires in vampire lairs anymore. And forget the fun element. Dungeons seem empty and sad nowadays. We have lots of players and few DMs to keep most population happy. with spawn rate so slow most dungeons only give critters to kill and meager loots.

The spawn rates would be fine, except I notice the dungeons are hit on low spawn often. They have to go unmolested to become anything fruitful.
Perhaps shortening the time needed to grow might be in order.

It lies with the spawns, it should be faster. Why because I am tired of taking the time to gather a full party only to go to a place, and find it at low spawn, or if I scouted it [I do this alot, I watch the spawns] then some solo cleric has cleared it all out.

new dungeons for low and mid would be appreciated, a faster spawning script... sure people would love that.

I agree that spawn rates in certain dungeons should be increased. As several people already stated, people go to certain dungeons far more often, be it real life time reasons etc.

its funny, because i remember at one point there was a bug and all the spawns were constantly mid to high spawn levels. and people complained on the forums that they couldn't tackle them....
would it be possible to make a system that spawned creatures depending on the players group rating? that way if players want harder challenges they would NEED to find a group. and that way players would always have an appropriate challenge? just an idea.

Oh and I loved it when everything was at max spawn, forced co-opperation

I don�t understand this� I would be happy to have mid to high spawn levels, as it would force us to group together. As stated above and in my initial post, tackling spawns together in a group is much more rewarding, much more fun and encourages roleplay.

Advancement stagnates, and i suppose advancement as one of the key drivers to play was highly underestimated by the devs here.

Pure roleplaying is still fun, but with reducing the XPs for it, a third or even half my motivation for it has disappeared. Playing with really great players (top-ten on the server) makes up for that... but those are not always online.

Please, please, dev team... in whatever way you tinker with the XP system: Take into consideration how long a level up will take in playing hours - and how long the occasional player has in a week to play. I played very, very much during the past weeks and saw no progress at all. That discourages me because my playing time will be severely limited during the next months.

Though the recent cut of RP XP gain is baffling. I remember Reiko went from 8-11 between fighting anything. RP XP used to be enough, these days its just not helping advancement at all.

That�s exactly what I meant in my initial post. If the xp gains are extremely low, one of the primary motivations for playing is missing, hence less satisfaction and fulfilment.
And like I said, I shudder at the thought that I have to grind for 2 years just to finally get to see places such as blaustein, perfidus and bluetspur.

[Anarcoplayba]

Long discussion, read it all, and just pointing my two cents (which already were little bit repeated).

1) Regarding the XP gains on killing things: IMHO, some creatures are a little bit underestimated. Werewolves, for instance: They are hard enough to kill to award more XP than they give. However, admitting you can hit the right dungeon at a mid spawn, the risk x reward is good.

2) Problem: Lately it have been hard to hit the right dungeon at mid spawn. The dungeons have been farmed more lately. Why? Because we love this game and it is a hell of fun. We like it. We want to play more. To every player that stops playing due to real life issues, we have three new players entering. I RARELY see less than 30 players online. Then, the question is: is there any possible way to make the dungeons spawn quicker?

3) More a question than an argumento: how does the spawn system works? I've heard that if you enter a dungeon and go out without killing anything it doesn'd despawn. Is it true? I'm asking because it's very commom to me entering a dungeon, seeing it is low spawn and leaving it alone. Am I screwing the spawn or not?

[HellsPanda]

it doesn't despawn to my experience, you do need to kill X amount of the spawn before it lowers its spawn, but midspawn isnt where the fun is, Highs spawn is where the fun is

[huffel]

How many times do I have to repeat that the gains over time has remained unchanged over atleast the last two years? The only difference is that you are hitting the cap less hard and the message you have upon rest are different. It's immensely demotivating that this movement of misinformation has become so resilient. What new has been contributed here that has not in all the past discussions? This is such a tremendous leap in the wrong direction for us working together constructively.

As for the spawn rates of dungeons, I was made aware, albeit only recently, that they on average were very low. As such, I've started evaluating them to better balance them out. But honestly, you make me wonder why I should bother.

I'm continously monitoring the general XP buffer status, and it all seems fine. Average is about 7,300 which is the ideal. You are gaining less XP , but the buffer settings hasn't changed, meaning the progression over time is unchanged. What may be experienced should only be periodical differences, that'll eventually even themselves out.

I apologise. However, I am still fairly new and still shifting and reading through the literally thousands of posts on the forum� which takes a huge amount of time� there are bound to be some repeats. It is by no means my intention to spam or clutter, which is why I also tend to write rather long posts.
As for the cap�my initial post wasn�t about the cap but the xp gain itself. If the overall xp gain is low, the cap doesn�t matter as I never reach the cap, which is happening to me. If someone gets lots of xp and hits the cap, he will still advance much faster than someone who only gets continuously �nothing happened�.

Now the most important change has been to reward much less for things below your level - in the hope that higher levels will seek out high level dungeons for challenge, rather than grinding the somewhat lower level zones. Without judging too much, perhaps that's the tendency that should change. That's the parole of the system, somewhat: Seek true danger once rather than repeating the trivial ten times.

The XP gains have been overhauled, but actually to reward risk taking more (and the trivial less). The entire calculation was restructured though, since I finally pulled myself together and made a proper diagram over the XP gains, revealing certain imbalances.
What you should keep in mind, however, is that your gain is still limited by the cap, meaning that if you were constantly moving in the "slow-down" section and now in a more balanced, your total XP gain over time will be the same.

That�s what I also mentioned in my initial post. It would be nice to actually encounter true danger such as elite vampires�but I never do. In the 8 to 9 months I have been here, I have encountered two single elite vampires. I haven�t seen bosses such as Elketh in several weeks. If DM Oculus yesterday hadn�t been so kind and spawned Elketh for the group I was with, I imagine I wouldn�t have seen him for further several weeks or even months.
I am always seeking true danger as the trivial is boring to me.
Another issue with true danger and xp is that in several places that seems to be off. I went (lvl 11 char) to Fane Forest and with heart beating and sweating and adrenaline cursing through my veins, I managed to dispose 3 ogre battleragers, 3 darkling swordsmaster, 3 warriors, 2 lookouts, 2 backstabbers��� and got an �uneventful�.
It still was much better than boredom though. 

I've no levels 20, but a 18 and a 16, so I have been watching some of the actual lev 20 hitting that. More or less I might say 1 year and a half, maybe some more, it depends on many circumstances.

That is the way it used to be, how about someone who started playing today?

Same type for me.  I can get quite satisfied with a ton of rp and dungeoning but not any prouds.  I'm not capped in any way.  XP is a lot lower now.

In the long run though, I really don't care about the xp progression.  Unless I'm on the new dawns message.  That puts me in a frenzy to get the character leveled, I dungeon and RP fanatically.  But overall, xp doesn't much matter, save to push my characters closer to that level 20 deadline where I figure its time to retire them.

That�s my assessment as well. It will take much, much, much longer to get to a decent level. And without meaning to offend the older players I quoted here� you have had your high level characters. It is mighty unfair to tell new players that they need 2 to 3 years (which is an optimistic estimation) to reach a sufficient level so that they can experience places such as perfidus. I mentioned that also in my initial post. You have seen these rare, marvellous and dangerous places. I haven�t and under the current system, I won�t for 2 years or even more. It is not only me but every new player on this server that has the same horrifying (no pun intended) trouble of having to wait and grind for that long.

[Aahz]

The XP gains have been overhauled, but actually to reward risk taking more (and the trivial less).

But then you put in the new impaired body and raise as zombie system, punishing risk taking. Things are getting down right schizophrenic around here.  I stand by my earlier post, All the game mechanic changes of late only serve to force the player to spend a lot more time to accomplish what they used to be able to do. They also actually motivate players to not actually take any risks as the punishments far outweigh any rewards.  On paper the stats might say the XP gain remains the same over time, however, all the changes taken together really demotivate players from trying much of anything.

[melzaren]

The XP gains have been overhauled, but actually to reward risk taking more (and the trivial less).

But then you put in the new impaired body and raise as zombie system, punishing risk taking. Things are getting down right schizophrenic around here.  I stand by my earlier post, All the game mechanic changes of late only serve to force the player to spend a lot more time to accomplish what they used to be able to do. They also actually motivate players to not actually take any risks as the punishments far outweigh any rewards.  On paper the stats might say the XP gain remains the same over time, however, all the changes taken together really demotivate players from trying much of anything.

There's too much dying going on already.  I am level 7 and every time I fight something other than rats, beatles, or undead skeletons, either me, or somebody in my party ends up a corpse, and unless I'm close to town, we spend the next 45 minutes dragging.

Last night I went out with a party of about 8 people and five of us died.

There are ALWAYS a ton of corpses in the sanctuary. 

It's not that I don't fear death and it's penalties and that I need a bigger incentive to avoid dying, it's that I fear being BORED killing rats all day long and that fear of boredom causes me to seek actual adventure.

This is a sentiment that has been shared over and over again in this thread and other threads.

  It feels like encounters fall in to 1 of 2 categories: Creatures that you can easily kill, and will not advance you at all unless you FARM them

and creatures who will stomp you to death.

I appreciate the desire to create a lifelike environment here at Ravenloft, but it needs to be balanced against the players and their ability to enjoy it.