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Author Topic: MPC Level Loss  (Read 15373 times)

Mailbox0000

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #50 on: November 15, 2010, 05:28:10 PM »


 The only consistent ones are vampire spawn. The reason for this is, of course, well known.

   During the 'new-character-week-blowout-extravaganza', we saw a slew of premade, higher lvl MPCs. These MPCs, from what little I experienced, contributed more to the server and theme of 'horror' in one week then I have experienced here, on PotM, in over a year. I think this was a fine example of what can occur when a player doesn't have to raise a monster to an effective level, and as such, is unlikely to grow past professional detachment.

 
   It would be amazing seeing a pack of lycanthrope terrorizing the night. An otherwise near impossible occurance with the existing MPC process, etc.

 
 This may not be the way to go about it, but I feel the process of becoming an MPC should be reconsidered. Just look at the active/surviving/current MPCs. Unless something is changed, the only 'successful' MPCs you will continue to see are vampire spawn. (I'm aware there are other living MPCs, but they are no where near as active or dominant as vampire spawn. And unless they are a caster or possess some ridiculous speed stack, they are unlikely to survive much of anything.)


 

 

marlewebber

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #51 on: November 15, 2010, 05:39:36 PM »
I wouldn't worry about all this too much, as the self-appointed Monster-PC spokesmen, I'll say we've been talking about our successes during the new PC week, and we all enjoyed portraying one-shot villains for you to slay.

The entire MPC process has evolved over time and I encourage each of you to consider applying for a Monstrous Role - if you like horror, nothing is as scary as playing the monster.

I was firmly against the level loss, well since the beginning, but honestly I don't think it matters anymore.  If you're motivated to portray monstrous roleplay, the levels are nothing and you can start at level 2.  If you think you can do it better than "the other guy," please be encouraged to apply.

mayvind

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #52 on: November 15, 2010, 05:40:21 PM »

 (I'm aware there are other living MPCs, but they are no where near as active or dominant as vampire spawn. And unless they are a caster or possess some ridiculous speed stack, they are unlikely to survive much of anything.)
 

Or they just waiting to gain enough age to level up and one day emerge  8)

Rex

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #53 on: November 15, 2010, 05:48:02 PM »
Hmmm.....*has a thought, decides to think on it a bit more....* Need to confirm a few things first....

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tzaeru

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #54 on: November 15, 2010, 06:26:35 PM »
The entire MPC process has evolved over time and I encourage each of you to consider applying for a Monstrous Role - if you like horror, nothing is as scary as playing the monster.

I was firmly against the level loss, well since the beginning, but honestly I don't think it matters anymore.  If you're motivated to portray monstrous roleplay, the levels are nothing and you can start at level 2.  If you think you can do it better than "the other guy," please be encouraged to apply.

I've once played a MPC - and unlikely to do it again unless carefully considered - as it wasn't anywhere near horror. It was stress, pure and simple. As a werewolf, every time I show up, anyone with haste might run after me, hit a Hold Monster and slay me. Much of the time was spent with stuff like someone going IC *Wonders why the werewolves aren't attacking <name of my char>* and me having to explain that it's because of freakin' lag - since in truth the werewolves were very hostile to me and would have eaten me given the chance.

A lot of positive feedback of course helped to cope with it, but as the server began to switch gears, average level getting just higher and higher with less and less opportunities to take it slow with RP, I decided to pull the plug on that char.

  It would be amazing seeing a pack of lycanthrope terrorizing the night. An otherwise near impossible occurance with the existing MPC process, etc.

We once had 4 PC werewolves terrorizing people and hunting in a pack one night. That was a lot of fun, to everyone I think. :fonzie:

In other news: The level loss should at least be halved, albeit I am slightly unsure how well whole MPC ordeal fits the server at the moment, as majority of them are not represented and unlikely will be in foreseeable future.

EDIT: I need one contact thing more to the profile, for bigger amount of fancy icons under avatar than Rex has.. =.=
« Last Edit: November 15, 2010, 06:29:37 PM by tzaeru »

dutchy

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #55 on: November 15, 2010, 08:16:58 PM »
il be more honest about my previous post then.

vamps should get a higher ecl cause we have a swarm of them the neuri/lycan types  lowered due to their short lived careers.

ghouls,mummy's and a few others i honestly got no clue about YET like rex said need to check a few things to make a valid opinion on those.


ps/ marle i'm sorry but you went fifth long ago you serounded yourself this is not always possible so a low lvl mpc has no chance you are the exception kuddos on that.
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k_moustakas

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2010, 08:28:37 PM »
I would like to quietly point out that not all mpcs are about pvp. Some of them have nothing to do with pvp whatsoever.
On one side we have the NegnarTM school of thought that was your typical I-will-go-at-night-at-outskirts-and-attack-anything-that-moves which is where the level loss hurts the most as this is more oriented towards pvp*. I would also think vampire spawns to be the best at this due to their virtual unkillability -which isn't the case but nevermind.

On the other side you have pure rp mpc where levels/builds simply don't matter at all.

What has been suggested here /short term mpcs/ is perfect for the first category. Fixed level - possibly fixed and lootable equipment as well - and a 'fixed' life span. The second category is a lot more appropriate for 'story' mpcs like what we used to have before the new guidlines. For this second category, ECL and level loss is IMPERATIVE. As a matter of oppinion, those should be treated no different from prestige class/special subraces and should have to earn xp as normal.

Those two categories could and should easily co-exist.

* Do not confuse pvp with griefing.
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Jay

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #57 on: November 16, 2010, 04:00:47 AM »
I have to admit one of the saddest things for me was seeing a diminutive orange halfling werewolf disappear from the server. And likewise I almost never see lycanthropes for the reason Mailbox stated, avoiding metagame is the bane of a MPC player and I’ll admit sometimes I am guilty of it and get a mild reprove from some of the MPC players (Recognising a character despite it being dark and they are wrapped in hoods and cloaks and whatever was my particular sin. But you’d be surprised how people suddenly come to the “realisation” IC that you’re something other then a normal Outlander).
I’m not sure making “Disposable” MPC’s will increase the horror on the server. If anything I think it will cheapen it as people (Probably at a high level) queue up to kill the latest BBEG and loot their stuff.
I think the main problem is with the “Resurrection o’ Matic” in the Morninglord Temple making death an annoyance rather then a finality it’s only really a matter of time before a MPC is “outed” once they manage to kill a few players. Once that happens you have to spend the rest of your characters career picking at the edge of the RP circle trying to find a bit or RP and well acted out PVP instead of *Haste, Hold Monster, Flesh To Stone, Knockdown* and so on and so forth. In “reality” the lycans and Vampires would remain secret because all their victims were all dead, with maybe one crazy crippled survivor raving about men-beasts and blood drinkers that no-one believes.
While I’m not saying “Wohoo! Lets make death permanent! That would scare up the server!” Perhaps we could give the (non-Vampire) MPC’s a little more leeway to improve their survivability? Letting the Lycans change there own names may help?

Also I apologise for my “licence to grief” flippancy, I was just trying to point out that from one persons PvP is another’s Griefing, and the line between the two can get mighty thin when you have such a large player-base who all put the boundary separating the two in different places.

Minstrel

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #58 on: November 16, 2010, 04:09:38 AM »
TBH, I think any MPC running full frontal assaults on the Outskirts deserves to be outed in a week.

At any rate, less attatchment means being less win-focused, and more RP-focused. As for the high-levels instawtfpwning the MPC's, it's a problem nobody is really sure how to get around. It was encouraged during New-Char week by exposing older characters to the other areas of the server, in the hopes that some of them might stay rather than return to the area designed for levels 2-6.

Jay

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #59 on: November 16, 2010, 05:06:28 AM »
TBH, I think any MPC running full frontal assaults on the Outskirts deserves to be outed in a week.

I agree. But that's why i didn't mention that. i was more thinking.

Grevis is Killed by MonsterLycan1
Ezra Casts Resurrection
Grevis "OMG! MonsterLycan1 is a Werewolf!" (to everyone who will listen, and they will.)
MonsterLycan1 can never enter civilised RP again.
MonsterLycan1 hurls self at outskirts to closure character out of sheer boredom.
or
MonsterLycan1 is only seen for about 10mins a week servertime.

Mailbox0000

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #60 on: November 16, 2010, 06:17:19 AM »

Grevis is Killed by MonsterLycan1
Ezra Casts Resurrection
Grevis "OMG! MonsterLycan1 is a Werewolf!" (to everyone who will listen, and they will.)
MonsterLycan1 can never enter civilised RP again.
MonsterLycan1 hurls self at outskirts to closure character out of sheer boredom.
or
MonsterLycan1 is only seen for about 10mins a week servertime.

 In typical horror fashion, outing the monster is half the battle. However, this becomes as asinine as you have provided example of when PCs are subject to such astounding memory of events prior and leading up to death. Perhaps a re-imagining of what happens upon death and resurrection? I would be all for a journal entry explaining events closer to the time of death are hazy and clouded due to the trauma involved in said process of... bloody dying.

 Just an idea.  :flame: :blackcat:

Minstrel

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #61 on: November 16, 2010, 06:35:32 AM »
That's just plain breaking or ignorance of the rules. There's very little at all that can be done on anyones end but the players to prevent it. Sure, reports to CC's / DM's might get the rulebreaker punished or something, but the 'IC knowledge' will have spread around all of Barovia by then, and short of repeatedly announcing 'OOC: Nobody is aware MonsterLycan1 is a Werewolf!' every ten minutes until everyone has the message, the damage can't be repaired.

Any step we take, journal entries, rules posts, announcements, etc, it only takes one person to ignore them, and the secret will spread like wildfire. Best thing you can do is not blindly trust anyone who claims someone was a werewolf after a traumatic event that usually leaves people dazed and confused, and wait until you find proof for yourself.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 06:38:36 AM by Minstrel »

HellsPanda

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #62 on: November 16, 2010, 06:42:47 AM »
and that doesnt take into guesswork based on facts observed, or stealters seeing the change mauling etc

herkles

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #63 on: November 16, 2010, 08:24:41 AM »
 the idea isn't to make monsters 'disposable' but just easier to make them. Just because they are premade does not mean that they can not make and create stories, they can.   As for attacking the outskirts, that has never been a wise idea. It is the place where all the heroic adventures hang out.   tbh I think it might be good to remove that healer cleric from the outskirts, but that isn't what this thread is about.

the idea is that this is to provide some fun and make it easier to play an MPC for some time, as after all this is supposed to be fun and having to grind levels till one is able to survive as a MPC is not fun. Plus this idea actually might allow some other concepts to be done much easier, such as a small were-wolf pack. 


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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #64 on: November 16, 2010, 08:44:50 AM »
That's just plain breaking or ignorance of the rules. There's very little at all that can be done on anyones end but the players to prevent it. Sure, reports to CC's / DM's might get the rulebreaker punished or something, but the 'IC knowledge' will have spread around all of Barovia by then, and short of repeatedly announcing 'OOC: Nobody is aware MonsterLycan1 is a Werewolf!' every ten minutes until everyone has the message, the damage can't be repaired.

Any step we take, journal entries, rules posts, announcements, etc, it only takes one person to ignore them, and the secret will spread like wildfire. Best thing you can do is not blindly trust anyone who claims someone was a werewolf after a traumatic event that usually leaves people dazed and confused, and wait until you find proof for yourself.

this is why i learned from early on, better to embrace the character, rather then to fight the meta gaming war that you can never win. unfortunately players dont give us long before something is thrown at ya. i think my character lasted a month before he was discovered. and i said screw it, tired of dealing with it. once you embrace it players lose interest in it. give them nothing to meta game and you have Zero Problems with Meta gaming over all.

as far as the throw away MPC's, i think they worked great for the event. but consider it was a controlled environment, and even by late mid week we had players the same level as us (level 5). the plot i ran was very enjoyable to those who were involved i suspect, but i agree that this would just make the role feel trivial if it was put on a consistent basis.

i agree also that the players who just want the instant kill/gloating rights are always going to exist. its a product of having two separate Rules concerning Perma death/closure between the two groups. one group is always going to win, the other is always going to lose. sorta takes the risk out of it entirely.

as far as other MPC's go, i think me and Morticia are really the only daily active ones, i rarely every see them. like jay said the others log on once a week if that it seems. i dont think lowering level cap for Lycan's or any other MPC is really going to help the fact that if someone wants to stomp them put, its not hard to accomplish. their Survivability has always been the issue, and cant really be fixed without a change in the template.

also consider the fact that every MPC race is different, there is no general Stereotypical role for "Horror", or interacting in general as it differs per character and race. Lycans are more prone to the PVP type of horror, gorging and feasting on their victims. sub-dual mode can make that really handy i would imagine.

vampires (and Vampire Spawns) are more interested in power, manipulation, and knowledge (excluding blood of course). they are not consumed by a raging animalistic mindset like Lycans for example. so the confrontation is always going to be different depending who you run into. i was always a fan of the Vampire Mythos/Legends. at the time that i applied i did not know the Vampire Spawn had the highest Survivability rate, there was very Few Vampire MPC's at all, or rather MPC's in general quite frankly.

i think there are a number of players out there that are passionate about the Lycan MPC's, or perhaps a ghoul/wight. but there are allot of factors that deter them from ever applying such as level loss, seeing other MPC's get stomped on by aggressive players, seeing Forum threads complaining about the role etc etc. it all adds stress to your plate, and is probably the main reason your not seeing any new Lycan MPC's.

i honestly think that if your going to apply, apply because:

1.) you love the Lore behind the race, being Passionate about something means your going to pour your heart into it every time and pull 110%.

2.) your OOC Character is of the Mindset of taking pleasure in others enjoyment. because then you wont mind if your character is chased away, repelled, Misted etc etc. so long as it was fun for them, that is reward enough.

id personally like the Were Creatures template revised. maybe giving them Hips and increased stealth or something.  and if not that i suppose the throwaway MPC could work, but i agree that there should be two different category's. long term and short term. both types of those MPC's would have their advantages and make up the difference that the opposite lacks.

the attachment comes not in the characters we play, but rather the Role. i love playing the MPC role, i love making stories and scenes rather then being on the receiving end. what bothers me is the length of time it would take to get back into that seat. the Throw away MPC may in fact Cure this. but something like that would take allot of brainstorming to pull off in a accepted manner.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 08:49:42 AM by Stravokov »

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #65 on: November 16, 2010, 10:23:39 AM »
the idea isn't to make monsters 'disposable' but just easier to make them. Just because they are premade does not mean that they can not make and create stories, they can.   As for attacking the outskirts, that has never been a wise idea. It is the place where all the heroic adventures hang out.   tbh I think it might be good to remove that healer cleric from the outskirts, but that isn't what this thread is about.
Rather than remove Lizuca, why not add a few more clerics in a few shrines or huts or other places throughout Barovia?  Deities such as Hala, Erlin (Nerull) and the Lawgiver (Bane) have little or no NPC representation in Barovia, so maybe they could have a few clerics (a priestess at a roadside shrine here, a crazy old man in a hut there...) tucked away here and there to lure some players away from Lizuca and the Outskirts.  If possible, some of the priests might be deity-specific or Alignment-specific; that old recluse in the hills won't act like anything but a creepy old man when the Goods and Neutrals ask, but the Evil characters might learn that he's a secretive priest of Erlin who will gladly raise a slain monster or criminal from the dead (for the usual "tithe," of course).

As for MPCs meeting permadeath far more often than living PCs do, why isn't it possible to bring a player's slain ghoul or werewolf back as easily?  If the Mists can allow mortals to return to life so regularly, then why wouldn't the Dark Powers here raise a werewolf from death or bend the rules and return a ghoul from oblivion, just for whatever mysterious purposes the Dark Powers serve?

We could even take a page from the Castlevania epics.  There, Dracula is scheduled to return from death every century no matter how many times the Belmonts and their allies kill him, but there always seems to be some mortal or vampire who's ready and willing to resurrect him prematurely for whatever reason (Shaft, Elizabeth Bartley, Carmilla, Simon Belmont...).  So perhaps part of the MPC's roleplay could involve gathering and securing a number of allied, mortal PCs to aid the MPC in various ways, including sheltering the MPC from the world's many eyes, protecting the MPC from enemies and perhaps even protecting the MPC from permadeath somehow (such as the old "magical clone" trick...) or somehow resurrecting the MPC from what would otherwise be permadeath.

(And, of course, you'd have to make that last one a big, grandiose affair.  Full moon?  Check.  Red candles?  Check.  Burning wormwood?  Check.  Live goat?  Check.  Knucklebones from the left hand of some old evil guy who got himself executed?  Check....)

But at the present time it does seem like the mortals on this server are more immortal than the beasties who serve as the meat and potatoes of the Ravenloft setting, doesn't it?  I think maybe we should change that and give the MPCs a little less mortality.  The PCs who thrive on having a long-lived nemesis or two probably wouldn't mind.

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #66 on: November 16, 2010, 11:12:26 AM »
we need more mortality for all, not less for some. More Closure for everyone!

Rex

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #67 on: November 16, 2010, 11:58:29 AM »
we need more mortality for all, not less for some. More Closure for everyone!

I've mentioned that a few times in the past.  Doesn't go over well with most computer game players though.

~Rex....more of a Perma Death, no Respawn after certain levels, PC or DM intervention only kinda guy heh.....
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Taty

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #68 on: November 16, 2010, 12:59:36 PM »

As for MPCs meeting permadeath far more often than living PCs do, why isn't it possible to bring a player's slain ghoul or werewolf back as easily? If the Mists can allow mortals to return to life so regularly, then why wouldn't the Dark Powers here raise a werewolf from death or bend the rules and return a ghoul from oblivion, just for whatever mysterious purposes the Dark Powers serve?


In answer to your question, the main reason defeated MPC's seldom return is because they are almost always taken to a priest who can permanently destroy them. There have been some instances where dms have restored a dead MPC, but those are a special few.

What I would like to see is that the minute a pc acts adversarial toward an MPC (beyond a one time encounter) wether by gossiping, plotting or frequently attacking the MPC they should become immediately subject to perma death. Then people would expose vampires in hushed tones and some may actually be afraid to speak about monsters. As it stands players tend to be fearless about such things because consequence, as has been noted, are pretty much one sided. I think if a player chooses to be an antagonist to player monsters they should run the same risk. Too often players screw with MPC's and then whine about bullying when the MPC takes action against them. This would go a long way to limiting the cavalier attitude so many players have about MPC's.

~Taty~

dutchy

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #69 on: November 16, 2010, 01:08:46 PM »
so what i'm hearing here.

the vamp players:  nah everything is just fine cannot change a thing without rethinking the whole mpc idea itself.

lycan or former lycan players:  was alot of fun even with the meta but alas to short.

Yes vamps do plot more, and kuddos to vincent cause he is getting more bold these days same goes for morticia.

But still i think minstrel said it was those who attack the outskirts should be ended in a week what the hell????
if you play a lycan you cannot plot you are an animal with urges, yes as a person you can plot but once you turn at night you are screwed and have to do what animals do and that is hunt the outskirts is the place to do so at night but yes its a dangerous one big kuddos to those that have the balls to do so, saying they need to die within a week is BS it comes over to me like you only want people to plot and plot and plot.
plotting is nice and it can be intresting long term rp, but i seen and heard players have alot more fun with spontanious encounters then a long plotted one, theres to much plotting if you ask me persenally it means everyone just waits and waits and finnaly does somthing this alas does not only apply for mpc's.


so as it stands i think lycan ecl should be lowered and the vamp ones higher you want to be a vamp and plot your *** off then go ahead but you sure do need to be around for some time to have a proper background connections and the likes, cause a lvl 10 can make a nice plotter but it sure ain as good as a lvl 13-15 char that has been around for  around a year or longer they simply know more been trough more and can do more thus why the ecl for vamps should be higher they are long term, and lycans are short term cause they basicly are a furry dynamite waiting to go out with a big bang.

ps: also i think the coffins of a vamp should have a description saying.      Do not destroy unless a dm is present (for the simple fact new people see them or old ones who dont know it or forgot it.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 01:10:37 PM by dutchy »
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Minstrel

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #70 on: November 16, 2010, 01:20:34 PM »
But still i think minstrel said it was those who attack the outskirts should be ended in a week what the hell????

Same goes for Paladins who attempt a full frontal assault on Castle Ravenloft. Outskirts is the server lounging ground full of high levels. Charging directly at it isn't genius.

All I remember of MPC attacks on the outskirts is some low level running in at Near Death, then the Justice League popping outside to scare the beastie off, who would of course have to run away. Then they pick up any dead guys and raise them at Liz.

Attacks on massively populated areas are never a good idea. The small groups of PC's walking about forests, secluded areas, etc, they're the places where things work. Where there is nobody to save you, no Res-O-Matic, and all you can hope for is to escape with your life.


And correct me if I'm wrong, but the werecreatures I've seen appear to be fully in control of themselves and their transformations.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 01:22:16 PM by Minstrel »

Shadowthrone

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2010, 02:27:23 PM »
And correct me if I'm wrong, but the werecreatures I've seen appear to be fully in control of themselves and their transformations.

They shouldn't be.

herkles

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #72 on: November 30, 2010, 08:45:24 PM »
I wonder if there is any hope for any change in the MPC level loss for MPCs, that or implementing tarroka's proposal.


suǝʇʇıɯ

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #73 on: November 30, 2010, 10:33:23 PM »
I beg to differ with all those who say werecreatures are throwaway. Now i've had some folks tell  me that i've only survived with Dougan b/c he's a monk, and i'd like to tell them BS. The fact of survivability is not figured in your class, your stats, or any factor on those lines. The survivability with a werecreature comes in how you play the template itself. Dont get me wrong the class i chose compliments the template itself very well. Now when i say it's in how you play the character i mean this. If your in human form, your not storming the outskirts killing those who roam there. 99% of the time i'm helping people when i'm just going about my day. However when night falls and the trigger is met the change occurs and it is the MPC's duty to take on the role of a savage creature itself. This means making harsh last moment decisions. When you come upon an encounter of unbuffed PCs and your already hasted it is easy to retreat if need be. Think of it like a barbarians rage lasting for 12 hours or so. In the click of a button you are hasted and buffed for the duration of a night. As well i'd like to add the point that i've expirienced no RP more enjoyable than the RP i have as a Lycan. Those of you whom may think it's impossible to RP when your a savage beast, i advise you to redirect your course of thought. When you can utilize the voice command and describe the scene to it's fullest potential, the victim will most likely have a better time than if you were to just run up and crush them, which i dont mind doing either but it's the fact of the matter, and the matter being that these things make the role and actions of a lycan far from throwaway.

To those whom believe differently about the survivability of werecreature, i've taken it upon myself to perhaps play another, one thats not a monk, to stand strong by my point when i say that the "survivability lay in how you play"

suǝʇʇıɯ

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Re: MPC Level Loss
« Reply #74 on: November 30, 2010, 10:40:32 PM »
the idea is that this is to provide some fun and make it easier to play an MPC for some time, as after all this is supposed to be fun and having to grind levels till one is able to survive as a MPC is not fun. Plus this idea actually might allow some other concepts to be done much easier, such as a small were-wolf pack. 

I like the direction your heading with this but i think at the same time that some of the suspense of playing an MPC comes at beginning low level with them, and building your way up to greater strengths. Like in Underworld for instance Lucian was a caged play toy for Viktor until he rose up and broke free. As far as grinding levels on an MPC goes it's quite impossible to do so as we gain our XP differently.