MPC Level Loss

[marlewebber]

...This way you don't die when you first emote your scene by some one with true sight.

Quick note, True Seeing does not reveal a being to be undead, it is not "Detect Undead" for these purposes; also True Seeing has no ability to show the true form of a shapeshifted Vampire (Bat/Wolf/Mist etc).. if that was your meaning, here.

These are setting-specific spell alterations on True Seeing, for your info.

[peluscious]

This way you don't die when you first emote your scene by some one with true sight.

Nothing intrinsically wrong with dying in your first scene. Specially vampires i guess.

[Avatar6666]

...This way you don't die when you first emote your scene by some one with true sight.

Quick note, True Seeing does not reveal a being to be undead, it is not "Detect Undead" for these purposes; also True Seeing has no ability to show the true form of a shapeshifted Vampire (Bat/Wolf/Mist etc).. if that was your meaning, here.

These are setting-specific spell alterations on True Seeing, for your info.

Then thier is something broke becuase i have seen 3 vampires all in mist form and i had true sight up.

[puckwolf]

...This way you don't die when you first emote your scene by some one with true sight.

Quick note, True Seeing does not reveal a being to be undead, it is not "Detect Undead" for these purposes; also True Seeing has no ability to show the true form of a shapeshifted Vampire (Bat/Wolf/Mist etc).. if that was your meaning, here.

These are setting-specific spell alterations on True Seeing, for your info.

Then thier is something broke becuase i have seen 3 vampires all in mist form and i had true sight up.

True sight enhances your spot, so if your spot beats the vampire's hide rolls you'll see the mist.

But basically what Marle is saying is you cannot identify a mist, or a bat or a wolf as a vampire just by having true sight up.  Spotting a vampire mist will appear as a mist, you can't necessarily make the assumption it's a vampire.

[DM Tarokka]

It'd be easier to have directly a character as a monster, after an application, with a level decided by the CC or DMs. The development before of the turning can be in background, it would avoid many other issues. Applications for monsters are anyway valued according to IC intentions and OOC reliability of the player basically (and knowledge of the setting/race/role): one who wants to play, let's say, a wererat woulld probably already follow some path leading to that mainly on an OOC basis, the player wants that, the development is according to that, why not having it "hastened"?.

Being an MPC is almost as playing an NPC, according to new rules, I just wonder why not having a preset MPC to play (considered they don't follow the same xp/loot/rp system of the "common players"). If you trust a player to be in the role of the MPC, why not giving him/her a premade role to play to start with? I honestly always wonder about this more than anything else for what MPCs are concerned.

[tzaeru]

I'd be for MPC's losing an amount of levels that equals half of the ECL. Likewise how the max level for MPC (and subraces) is 20 - ECL/2, rounded up.

for what i know there are a lot of people who wish to became an MPC, but what is stopping them it s the loss of levels ,but perhaps my informations are wrong

Then, perhaps, they ought to rethink the purpose of MPCs. It's anyway worth a good story to spend some real life time (say, a year) to exploring a character before making him a monster. It gives a lot of excellent, easily created depth.

and when we are all MPC what we will do...?

That won't happen, cause without regular PCs they'll cease to have a point. Nothing wrong with every player having an MPC though. =)

That reasoning hasn't stopped many other changes from occurring.  

Some of this is true but on the other end of the spectrum who in their right mind would make a level 6 char into a vampire? I mean bring some realism to the fact that in Order for MPC to survive and be functional you have to be around 14th level when you take the level loss hit. This way you don't die when you first emote your scene by some one with true sight.

Because people wait to higher levels it leads to many things. One is that MPC don't  jump high levels for fear of death.

This is an issue of overall spread of levels (the average level, usually, is around 10.) and shouldn't be fixed this way, since it isn't the real solution to the whole of the problem. And on the flipside, if my paladin had a nemesis who is exactly equal to him in combat and he'd go vampire, without level losss, my paladin would have exactly zero chance from then on to win the said nemesis. Zero chance, because an alteration to his nemesis that might have taken less than 20 minutes of real-life time in whole. But, if he loses those 5 levels (if that was vampire ECL) he's pretty much granted to lose. That's why I'd support a level loss of 1/2 ECL.

[HellsPanda]

actually a well used paladin, with only the vampire bonuses on top of the class... and that vampire is mist anyway. Levels arent the end all to PvP, nor is class. Preparation is everything

[tzaeru]

actually a well used paladin, with only the vampire bonuses on top of the class... and that vampire is mist anyway. Levels arent the end all to PvP, nor is class. Preparation is everything

I never said a thing about levels or class of the nemesis. I said "equal to him in combat". i.e. either some ultra-clever build or more levels. If vampire powers were added to that nemesis, my paladin would indeed need a bit more of extra preparation than barskin potion and brooch of shielding. On the other hand, if the full ECL is taken away, yeah, he's not going to win, unless he gets a caster to buff him sky high, in which case I could just gulp down the haste and imp invis potions of my own. Therefore, a good compromise would be 1/2 of ECL worth of levels stripped.

[Kendric98]

Some of this is true but on the other end of the spectrum who in their right mind would make a level 6 char into a vampire? I mean bring some realism to the fact that in Order for MPC to survive and be functional you have to be around 14th level when you take the level loss hit. This way you don't die when you first emote your scene by some one with true sight.

Because people wait to higher levels it leads to many things. One is that MPC don't  jump high levels for fear of death.  This leads to lower levels feeling that their is no way to either RP or Pvp scare away the monster. So you have more PVP instead of RP. This leads to OOC issues which lead to CC issues and so forth.

All i am saying is that it would be fun once and while to scare the monster away and still be in a RP mindset rather then a PvP mindset. It still builds a story for your char and i believe it would do more for MPC's and PC's.

Just my Opinion.

[Antonus Taran]

People shouldn't be playing MPCs if they are terrified of death. The reason the Vampire template so heavily outnumbers probably the rest of the MPC templates combined is due to their ability to never die. If they get killed in a scene, they mist away invincibly. (literally.)

All of the other templates are S.O.L. if they get killed in public. However, I am of the belief that the vast majority of Monstrous PC deaths have likely come from attacking the Western Outskirts, which tends to be swarming with adventurers armed to the teeth.

The ECL should stay firmly in place. Choosing to turn your character into a monster is a very significant gameplay change, and it should stay that way.

[Aduial]

i totally agree with Antonus, he speaks the truth.

[Avatar6666]

People shouldn't be playing MPCs if they are terrified of death. The reason the Vampire template so heavily outnumbers probably the rest of the MPC templates combined is due to their ability to never die. If they get killed in a scene, they mist away invincibly. (literally.)

All of the other templates are S.O.L. if they get killed in public. However, I am of the belief that the vast majority of Monstrous PC deaths have likely come from attacking the Western Outskirts, which tends to be swarming with adventurers armed to the teeth.

The ECL should stay firmly in place. Choosing to turn your character into a monster is a very significant gameplay change, and it should stay that way.

Again i am going to say that i can hurt a vampire in mist form. I just did it this week.

[Shadowthrone]

People shouldn't be playing MPCs if they are terrified of death. The reason the Vampire template so heavily outnumbers probably the rest of the MPC templates combined is due to their ability to never die. If they get killed in a scene, they mist away invincibly. (literally.)

All of the other templates are S.O.L. if they get killed in public. However, I am of the belief that the vast majority of Monstrous PC deaths have likely come from attacking the Western Outskirts, which tends to be swarming with adventurers armed to the teeth.

The ECL should stay firmly in place. Choosing to turn your character into a monster is a very significant gameplay change, and it should stay that way.

Again i am going to say that i can hurt a vampire in mist form. I just did it this week.

The mist they enter upon "death" is invulnerable. The mist they can enter at will isn't.

[Avatar6666]

Ah I was not aware of that, thank you.

[tzaeru]

People shouldn't be playing MPCs if they are terrified of death. The reason the Vampire template so heavily outnumbers probably the rest of the MPC templates combined is due to their ability to never die. If they get killed in a scene, they mist away invincibly. (literally.)

All of the other templates are S.O.L. if they get killed in public. However, I am of the belief that the vast majority of Monstrous PC deaths have likely come from attacking the Western Outskirts, which tends to be swarming with adventurers armed to the teeth.

The ECL should stay firmly in place. Choosing to turn your character into a monster is a very significant gameplay change, and it should stay that way.

Again i am going to say that i can hurt a vampire in mist form. I just did it this week.

The mist they enter upon "death" is invulnerable. The mist they can enter at will isn't.

No point in making a new topic over this, so is it IC and OOC ok to wack away at the optional Mist form? I noticed my sword did damage a vampire who Misted but I wasn't sure if that was supposed to happen or not.

It wasn't the death mist, though. If the optional mist form is killed, do they just turn to death mist form then?

[Antonus Taran]

I've killed vampires who turned into their mist forms, and yes, when they die in their "Usable" mist-form, they transform into their Coffin-running mist-form, which is considered invulnerable by the engine and cannot be damaged.

[Shadowthrone]

Magical weapons can harm mist form. It's totally legitimate.

[tzaeru]

I've killed vampires who turned into their mist forms, and yes, when they die in their "Usable" mist-form, they transform into their Coffin-running mist-form, which is considered invulnerable by the engine and cannot be damaged.

Magical weapons can harm mist form. It's totally legitimate.

Thanks. I know to not hold back the next time then.. 

[herkles]

It'd be easier to have directly a character as a monster, after an application, with a level decided by the CC or DMs. The development before of the turning can be in background, it would avoid many other issues. Applications for monsters are anyway valued according to IC intentions and OOC reliability of the player basically (and knowledge of the setting/race/role): one who wants to play, let's say, a wererat woulld probably already follow some path leading to that mainly on an OOC basis, the player wants that, the development is according to that, why not having it "hastened"?.

Being an MPC is almost as playing an NPC, according to new rules, I just wonder why not having a preset MPC to play (considered they don't follow the same xp/loot/rp system of the "common players"). If you trust a player to be in the role of the MPC, why not giving him/her a premade role to play to start with? I honestly always wonder about this more than anything else for what MPCs are concerned.

I really like this idea and I support it. This idea might help solve some problems, such as the fact that most mpcs are vampires. I am curious what others, particular DMs think of this idea?

[Aran]

hmm premade form   like the idea.


i for one dont have the time to feel i will be putting enough time into being for example a DM

wont try dm either as i havent seen half the server after 2 years or more and ant to explore everything as a player before taking such steps.


i have long had a wish to give something back to the feel of the server, but have no high enough level chars for me to go monstrous again yet (take me a yea or more to make one that will last more than 10 min in outskirts)

but a npc character  hmm would suit me fine if possible

[Mailbox0000]

 MPC level-loss, and the length of time needed to actually have one that can survive any serious attempt at fulfilling it's role, seems to me the primary reason one would become protective or 'attached' to their character.

[jugnaut]

Yeah, the attachment comes from the two years of playing the PC to get it high enough level to survive as an MPC.  Pre-made MPCs would solve this and make folks more willing to take risks in favor of rp.  And allow some neat concepts like true werewolves or ghouls from the necropolis.

[Jay]

I�ve been holding off commenting on this because I�ve never actually played an MPC or DM�d an Online server. So stating my opinions like they mean something is stretching things a bit. But I guess since as my Primary is a Paladin I tend to attract quite a lot of MPC attention. So allow me to voice my concerns with the �open to all� policy, based on what I know of the MPC�s I�ve encountered and there attitudes IC and OOC.

As it stands you have to work for about six months of dedicated play to establish a character who can not only take the level loss but also survive the initial �Proving Ground� of noobie MPCdom.
The argument is of course if you have a Job/Family/Undead legion/Social Life or other things that mean you don�t have the sort of time to dedicate to levelling up a PC to that level you�ll miss out on playing an MPC.

Correct, this is the case. But on the other hand, MPC�s can be responsible for some of the most consistent and dedicated Player Driven plots on the server. So you need someone with a lot of free time to dedicate to that. GM�s (in theory) need to be able to spend 10 hours a week online, and often spend more then that to help us all have a good time.
MPC�s don�t have to do the same, but many of them do. Not only this but they also don�t have the free-reign the DM�s do in telling good stories (there DMing tools are very limited) and run the risk of Permadeath with every encounter they decide to embark on. For some it�s easy to escape, others it�s very, very hard.

I worry that by opening the server to �Create your own monsters� we�ll make a culture where it�s easier for those who would use MPC�s as a blunt instrument to bully the player base. To get personal satisfaction rather then actually work towards creating interesting RP scenes or fleshing out an established character. This in turn could increase the whining and accusations of GM favouritism when some people are approved and others not.

Ultimately, I would be happy either way, both arguments have their pro�s and con�s. The new policy (if it was implemented) would worry me. But like I said, I don�t know the DM team or the CC so I have no idea how they would Vet and establish rules for the �Instant MPC�s�. It may even be the best thing that ever happened? Who knows.

I think my overall point is, I�ve always seen MPC status being given to those players who have displayed a maturity and dedication needed to play with what is ultimately �A licence to grief� it�s hard to target players for PVP and get them to enjoy it, but most of them always manage, and they are a credit to the server.

[Minstrel]

I worry that by opening the server to �Create your own monsters� we�ll make a culture where it�s easier for those who would use MPC�s as a blunt instrument to bully the player base. To get personal satisfaction rather then actually work towards creating interesting RP scenes or fleshing out an established character. This in turn could increase the whining and accusations of GM favouritism when some people are approved and others not.

Actually, I have a feeling the opposite will happen.

See, consider that currently, with MPC's, your MPC represents a massive investment of time, and something you've become quite attatched to. To actually antagonize someone like you want to, you must put yourself at risk. Since you don't want your character killed, you minimize that risk any way possible, leading to high-level characters ganking and utterly disabling lower-level players before beginning roleplay, giving the target no chance to fight back, and generally souring the scene before it starts, since the target feels understandably ganked, and possibly as if the DM is just pwning them for satisfaction rather than RP, as you say.

If you've only been given the character for a month, you don't mind so much if it goes, and want it to go out with style, rather than not go at all. Therefore you take more risks. You begin evenly-matched fights with equal-level characters, and have a scene where the target feels endangered, though has a chance, making things a lot more tense. Any good DM will tell you that players don't respond well to being faced with an impossible opponent, or defeated without a slither of a chance.

As for the DM/CC favouritism, we already have the PrC and ECL race applications. Some go through. Some are denied, because they don't pass the grade. There is always going to be the perception from the denied that the approved are simply DM pets or friends with people on the inside.

People using MPC's to grief people will be dealt with exactly the same as people using powerbuilds to grief people, and likely wouldn't be given the character in the first place.

[dutchy]

hmm i am sorry but grevis did not mean grief as in grief     what he means is mpc's get a free pass to attack people ofcourse with rp and horror applied.

simply naming it for lack of better words.

the ecl's are pretty high i think it needs a look at some need to be risen and some should be lowered to encourage this cause atm to me this server lacks a steady mpc number, we need more of them it might bring back the fear a bit more in people.