MPC Level Loss

[herkles]

Hello,

This is something I have been curious about recently. Why is it that there is level loss upon becoming an MPC, you loose levels? depending on your type you can lose 5 levels for becoming a vampire or were-bear, 4 for alot of others such as wight, were critters, and so on. Not to mention that from what I know you are still counted as being that level, for some there is a max level you can reach. Vampires for example can only get to level 18. I could be wrong in this, but I was told this by others who did play MPCs.

Anyways I believe the level loss is detrimental for some very pointed reasons.

  more level grinding. As it  is now to become a MPC you would have to grind levels and xp till you got to say level 15 to become a level 10 vampire spawn.

  This is one of the reasons why some may say MPCs are so attached to their characters, Certainly not the only one but this does help it a tad bit.

  It is a huge block for prospective MPCs. For example when I speak with other MPCs, I am told either "don't do it" or "wait till you a high level".

What I suggest is quite simple, the removal of the Level loss. MPCs still would have the limit to max levels, like now not to mention you still would need to apply to become one, but you would just not lose levels upon becoming a MPC. What I believe this will do is help those who wish to become MPCs. As you would no longer need to grind levels to become a MPC, it would allow some to be more comfortable with the death of their MPC, and more people would be willing to try it.

I honestly think this would only help the server IMO.

-herkles

[EO]

Arrow  more level grinding. As it  is now to become a MPC you would have to grind levels and xp till you got to say level 15 to become a level 10 vampire spawn.

Monstrous characters do not gain XP by adventuring, they have a completely different system of XP. Aside from getting loot or for RP reasons, there is no real reason why a monster would adventure and farm areas. Instead, they should focus on their role, which is providing horror and a gothic element.

What I suggest is quite simple, the removal of the Level loss. MPCs still would have the limit to max levels, like now not to mention you still would need to apply to become one, but you would just not lose levels upon becoming a MPC. What I believe this will do is help those who wish to become MPCs. As you would no longer need to grind levels to become a MPC, it would allow some to be more comfortable with the death of their MPC, and more people would be willing to try it.

The main reason for the level loss is that a MPC is stronger than what the original character was. If we didn't take levels, by becoming a monster, you'd instantly become far superior to what you were before. The level loss will likely scare some, but that's not a bad thing. It's a way to weed out those who only apply for power.

[herkles]

When I mean grinding levels, I meant before one became a MPC, I believe having something of a level requirement somewhat just encourages people to grind more. that is what I was trying to mean there.

[Taty]

You are wrong about one thing, the grinding out levels, monsters get scripted xp amounts equal to your daily max as I understand it, regardless of if they are logged on or not. So we don't need to worry about xp .

The ECL lost as I understand it is to stop people from choosing them to be uber. I'm a 20th lvl wizard and I am now a 20th lvl wizard with X monster bonuses. I am now the most powerful being on the server.

ECL is not perfect, but it is also really difficult to put a level value on an MPC class. This is reflected in constant changes over the years. At one time they were much higher but in the old system leveling was very hard with an ECL of 8-10 and the staff saw this and responded.

It should also be noted that the system has had its bugs over time. Vincent and Angelika are of equal age and of comparable time played and yet he somehow got 2 levels higher than her. Considering how high a level both are with ECL 21/19 respectively I don't really understand how it is possible. Franky it doesn't matter much since we cant feed on each other

There is also good reason to discourage masses of players becoming monsters, with quantity comes a loss of quality. Also, it is probably wise for a character to have a solid history and developed background before they become monsters, not to mention for newer players to get to know the ins and outs of the community and the server.

The problem is it is not an exact science, ECL impacts different classes and builds very differently. Of the three MPC's I have had my cleric is by far the most powerful and despite only being lvl 14 on her character sheet there is no doubt in my mind she is in a league higher than that. Add to that the propensity some MPC's have for getting DP's and you have an even more complex cocktail.

For the first time in my memory of this server the Monsters can actually hold their own now. Yes there were always the odd uber builds that changed at Max levels but for the most part they were lower levels that were easily pushed around and destroyed. Now when I look around at my MPC peers I know that when we are in force we are very powerful and most of us as individuals can keep the average party on their toes. I have never been one to level watch others unless they are my friends and they tell me " just got level so and so" but I have noticed these past few months that I have generally overestimated my opponents and have had much less to fear than one would think. A combination of inactive high levels and the growth of older monsters , Vampire spawns in particular has resulted in a level playing field.

I myself would like to have another, more animalistic MPC to engage the playerbase with but until recently was concerned about having the levels to survive, now I am of the mind that surviving isn't that important and perhaps having a few with short lives may add to the server just as much as an ancient infamous villain who always lives to fight another day. Both have their place.

So much depends on style and approach that I must conclude the system is fine as is in general. I think weres could probably use some help but even they would be fine if a pack of weres was ever formed, but they seldom live long enough to have others join their ranks.

In fact I might suggest that if a few people decided to make a "theme" group of MPC's levels wouldn't matter much at all, 3 or 4 werewolves or wererats could create a lot of trouble regardless of their levels, just because they had some support.

Having played a 2nd lvl vamp spawn I know it can be done and you can make an impact, but that MPC did so as a manipulator not as a pvp monster. If you are interested in the anamalistic types like weres than it cant hurt to have a bit of ab and some hitpoints , or else you have to pick your spots very wisely and be patient.

~Taty~

[Shadowthrone]

All it does is make people wait until they are high level to apply.

I applied my werewolf character at level 11 and she became level 7. I would have been happy to apply at level 7 with no level loss. Not only that but if I had applied at level 11 with no level loss the character would actually be a challenge rather than a pest.

Considering how much PvP an MPC has to endure, I think the level loss is totally unreasonable - you are essentially signing up to both be weaker at PvP and be PvP'd more often. Any MPC that is actually living up to the terms of the MPC guidelines should not have to deal with it. Those who are not living up to the MPC guidelines should have their characters removed.

I hate to sound like MPC's are all about the PvP, they're really not. Being an MPC and running horror scenes is one of the most rewarding experiences I have had on this server and I will likely be doing it again after my current MPC's are closured. But the level loss is totally unnecessary.

Edit: And I thought I'd add that, regarding the power of the templates, arguing that they are more powerful than average characters is sort of laughable. Lycanthropes are pathetic in terms of power, and even the undead aren't possessing a huge advantage (aside from vampire spawn, but the overpoweredness of vampire spawn is another topic). I would have thought the fact that every MPC (beside vampire spawn) is 90% likely to get closured on their first PvP death was enough of a disadvantage to make up for it anyway.

[Knas]

Your character doesn't wake up one day and instantly realize "oh I'm a vampire now, good thing I know how to use my powers at their full potential!"

[Shadowthrone]

Your character doesn't wake up one day and instantly realize "oh I'm a vampire now, good thing I know how to use my powers at their full potential!"

What, according to canon?

Uh... yeah they do.

Unless you're talking about vampiric powers, in which case that has no relation to the discussion.

[Knas]

I thought monsters had ECL in canon?

[Shadowthrone]

Yes, they do.

They do not, however, lose levels when becoming a monster. They simply gain an ECL penalty, causing them to level up slower from that point.

[Knas]

As far as I've always played ECL you drop to the level according to your exp with your new ECL since ECL counts from the bottom, not the top. And even if not that would only mean you won't reach a level in a LONG time.

[Antonus Taran]

As far as I've always played ECL you drop to the level according to your exp with your new ECL since ECL counts from the bottom, not the top. And even if not that would only mean you won't reach a level in a LONG time.

Yeah, this is generally how it works. All ECL does is raise the actual # of XP points that it takes to hit a certain level. So if your ECL suddenly goes up, the amount of XP required to hit X level also goes up. Usually this results in a loss of levels, but not a loss of stored character XP.

[Dashru]

All it does is make people wait until they are high level to apply.

I applied my werewolf character at level 11 and she became level 7. I would have been happy to apply at level 7 with no level loss. Not only that but if I had applied at level 11 with no level loss the character would actually be a challenge rather than a pest.

Considering how much PvP an MPC has to endure, I think the level loss is totally unreasonable - you are essentially signing up to both be weaker at PvP and be PvP'd more often. Any MPC that is actually living up to the terms of the MPC guidelines should not have to deal with it. Those who are not living up to the MPC guidelines should have their characters removed.

I hate to sound like MPC's are all about the PvP, they're really not. Being an MPC and running horror scenes is one of the most rewarding experiences I have had on this server and I will likely be doing it again after my current MPC's are closured. But the level loss is totally unnecessary.

Edit: And I thought I'd add that, regarding the power of the templates, arguing that they are more powerful than average characters is sort of laughable. Lycanthropes are pathetic in terms of power, and even the undead aren't possessing a huge advantage (aside from vampire spawn, but the overpoweredness of vampire spawn is another topic). I would have thought the fact that every MPC (beside vampire spawn) is 90% likely to get closured on their first PvP death was enough of a disadvantage to make up for it anyway.

QFT

This statement portrays my view on the subject perfectly.  We've guidelines to prevent us from becoming power-gaming invulnerable Mary Sues; we don't need any further handicaps.

[Telkar]

If it were like that, and a PC would become an MPC at lvl 20, there'd still have to be what...2 lvl loss? At least for wights I think. Also, if the objective of the lvl loss is to make sure the player isn't going for it for power, isn't it enough to remove the levels equaling 20 minus the maximum lvl the MPC can reach? A rule like that would prevent lvl 20 characters from going beyond what should be their maximum lvl. If that rule applied, whichever lvl the upcoming MPC is, it would prevent players from applying only before lvls 18 - 20, since what sense would it make to loose lvls when you don't have to?

CharLvl - (20 - MaxLvl) = ?

[mayvind]

If it were like that, and a PC would become an MPC at lvl 20, there'd still have to be what...2 lvl loss? At least for wights I think. Also, if the objective of the lvl loss is to make sure the player isn't going for it for power, isn't it enough to remove the levels equaling 20 minus the maximum lvl the MPC can reach? A rule like that would prevent lvl 20 characters from going beyond what should be their maximum lvl. If that rule applied, whichever lvl the upcoming MPC is, it would prevent players from applying only before lvls 18 - 20, since what sense would it make to loose lvls when you don't have to?

CharLvl - (20 - MaxLvl) = ?

They can apply but do they get it ? And if DMs oki with it then there no arguing is there ?

[Telkar]

Erm...yea. There'd be applications as normal. I'm just talking about a lowered lvl loss. I think loosing around 2 lvls + getting the ECL lvling pace could be enough to discourage MPCing for power.

[Aduial]

and when we are all MPC what we will do...?

[Avatar6666]

surprising but not everyone wants to be a MPC, It resticts you alot and if thats what your looking for to flush out that char thats fine. In my close to 3 years here, I have only put in one app and that was a weapon master. Being a MPC should allow you to flush your char out and if that is where your story line goes, thats great.

[Aduial]

for what i know there are a lot of people who wish to became an MPC, but what is stopping them it s the loss of levels ,but perhaps my informations are wrong

[jugnaut]

They gain xp by existing and doing nothing.  Which is open to abuse.  I've seen players that hardly ever play or rp as a monster level up much faster due to the system.  

[Telkar]

and when we are all MPC what we will do...?

That won't happen, cause without regular PCs they'll cease to have a point. Nothing wrong with every player having an MPC though. =)

[Vespertilio]

They gain xp by existing and doing nothing.  Which is open to abuse.  I've seen players that hardly ever play or rp as a monster level up much faster due to the system.  

For a script that was intended to allow MPCs to focus on rp interactions over hunting for 'xp' I'd agree this seems to be the case for some MPCs. I perhaps misunderstood what was being said when I was told that those who do not live up to the new rules/expectations would not have the template removed but would lose that pc altogether.

[Knas]

If you feel a player is abusing the priviliges of his MPC then PM a dm with specifics and that player will be overlooked.

[marlewebber]

I used to be really hell-bent on saying that Level Loss is not a D&D convention at all and should be abandoned, but honestly, my monster PCs have never been max level or anywhere close and it never stopped the creation of horror. (Though it also never stopped people from gank-style-PvP, but even that can add to the story)

...in my Kyomujinn-opinion, it is finally a non-issue, roleplay the horror you were created to bring forth and seek others to play with who will enjoy it.  Levels won't matter much if you work toward that end.

[Strigoi]

...in my Kyomujinn-opinion, it is finally a non-issue, roleplay the horror you were created to bring forth and seek others to play with who will enjoy it.  Levels won't matter much if you work toward that end.

i agree completely.

to much stereotyping going on in these threads towards MPC's



the level loss i agree is necessary. one of the biggest excuses people tell me why they dont go MPC is becuase of the level loss. fact of the matter is its irrelevant. if your goal is Roleplay and not steam rolling players in PVP, it shouldn't matter.

however PVP does sometimes happen, its a part of the role of what the specific Creature needs. Wights hate the living and drain life, Vampires Drain blood to survive, Were creatures are fueled by a carnal and primal rage.. etc etc. that of course can, and will lead to conflict.

[Avatar6666]

Some of this is true but on the other end of the spectrum who in their right mind would make a level 6 char into a vampire? I mean bring some realism to the fact that in Order for MPC to survive and be functional you have to be around 14th level when you take the level loss hit. This way you don't die when you first emote your scene by some one with true sight.

Because people wait to higher levels it leads to many things. One is that MPC don't  jump high levels for fear of death.  This leads to lower levels feeling that their is no way to either RP or Pvp scare away the monster. So you have more PVP instead of RP. This leads to OOC issues which lead to CC issues and so forth.

All i am saying is that it would be fun once and while to scare the monster away and still be in a RP mindset rather then a PvP mindset. It still builds a story for your char and i believe it would do more for MPC's and PC's.

Just my Opinion.