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Author Topic: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.  (Read 10393 times)

Emomina

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2010, 05:31:55 PM »
The point really isn't about the unbalance of the monsters themselves. And quoting how such and such build can solo them is stupid.
The point is that having one of the thugs in the city as good at combat as the highest of levels on the server is one thing, but its not like going to Perfidus, where you expect to have an AC tank or two.
Going down the street of Port-a-Lucine should not require an AC or discipline of that magnitude. They are simply unattainable form maany characters even with buffs. It makes it a decent challenge for a self buffed Cleric, a high level Paladin,  etc.
But what a Rogue? Discipline skill was inexplixably left off their class skills. Even a STR rogue with skill focus discpline, all discipline items, and all the cross class skill ranks they can manage has zero chance against a Discipline DC that these guys invoke.

So, its wait until daylight.Building things that are tough for highest discpline, AC and HP characters is one thing, but it affects the claustrophia of the place for the normal characters.
If that is the aim, then it works as intended. But I will never understand the fascination with extreme difficulty.

Been trying to lower the spawn btw. Seems it does not take long for the gangleaders to reappear again.
The Slums of Dementlieu are one of the most dangerous places in PotM now. And once you fall to the first KD (I have so many characters, not one that can resist it) you are done. No bleeding, instant ghost. Dementlieu is now like some Dungeons are, you do not go there alone.
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Nemien Callishan

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2010, 05:32:08 PM »
There is no reason to be disheartened people, such problems are easily avoided. It makes Vallaki seem refrshingly easy :)

~Taty~


Easily avoided if you're inside the port. if you're outside and you've just arrived, seriously people - standing outsdie the town gates 'till dawn is going to bore some people to the point where they really aren't going to bother visitting the port at all.

And yes, Ciaran's screenshot shows what it's like. It's just insanely impossible.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 05:38:55 PM by Nemien Callishan »

Aahz

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2010, 05:40:26 PM »
Echoing what herkles said. Dementlieu is supposed to be about psychological horror, subtly, and mystery.  Having it be a place where "strong warriors go to test there mettle" seems to just be wrong. I get the feeling that is where those that support these very difficult encounters are coming from and I do not believe that Dementlieu is the place for it.

Port-a-Lucine is a place for Sherlock Holmes, Professor Moriarty, Dr Jeckel,  The Invisible Man, Hunchback of Notre Dame, The Phantom of the Opera, Cask of Amontillado, Murders in the Rue Morgue, etc...... It is not the wasteland from Mad Max
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 05:49:12 PM by Aahz »
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respawnaholic

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2010, 05:47:52 PM »
I havent seen them first hand so I cant comment, but just in general Im opposed to ANY bandit being that dangerous. If you want some insane elete spawn there cant we come up with something a little more fear inducing than...bandits? (in the Rp sence..since they seem to induce fear in the OOC sence quite well) To me THAT is an immercian breaker of epic magnatude. Its like in Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhall where even the common grunt fighters had +3 full plate and swords, and even the dogs were 90% magic resistant It just screams munchkin.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2010, 05:52:26 PM by respawnaholic »

herkles

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2010, 05:59:28 PM »
Indeed, Dementlieu is not about being the battle ground of the server/ravenloft. It is a place where, things are not as they seem, but yet most of the horrors are the evil that men do. It is a place of illusion and grandeur yet with secrets buried underneath. The ezrites in the port are a good example of this type of rp. As they are dedicated to Ezra but their focus is upon secrets, knowledge, mysticism, and esoteric knowledge, and they are the Bastian for an entire sect of Ezra...however their cathedral is ancient but in ruins.

Nobles scheme against each other, but you don't know who is doing it willingly, unwillingly, or not even sure they are even doing it. The wax mesuem is a good example of the horror of dementlieu. You can not tell if they are just dummies made of wax of terrifying people or if they are actually really since they are so life like.  This is a place of mystery, where you have a murder and you have guys like aliank ray, an expy of Sherlock Holmes, try and solve the case, or a group of PCs.

What Dementlieu is not, is not a domain that brings together the strongest of the strongest to fight the criminals of the port, and to be honest if they are this tough and going to kill tourism one of dementlieu's chief ways of making money. Then the gendarmes would likely be brought in and destroy the gang leaders. As that is what is going to happen. The Port already needs some DM support if there is going to be PCs there as that is the nature of the type of rp that is there. For it is rare that there are people in the port. These gang leaders are just going to drive away more people from the port.


Emomina

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2010, 06:33:46 PM »
Forgot to mention the script these guys have (and its found elsewhere) that is quite an immersion breaker for me and is unfairly disadvantageous.

They will reacquire a new target base on vulnerability, whether is AC, discipline, hps, that triggers it, I don't know.
What this script does is negate the advantage of having a beefy character to tank them while a more vulnerable but effective damage dealer kills them.

So, I have actually run out ideas on how to deal with these guys with a flanking character. Its immediately after showing yourself that all 4-5 of them will change targets to KD and kill in one round.
Can't solo them, and can not flank them.
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LawfulJoe

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2010, 06:52:43 PM »
Its immediately after showing yourself that all 4-5 of them will change targets to KD and kill in one round.
Ah HA! There your problem right there Vern... Don't Show yourself :D

This place sounds absolutely brutal. I will have to see how Thraxys the SD fares there.  :?

TealAttack

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2010, 07:15:32 PM »
This place sounds absolutely brutal.

Yeah, it does. I'm afraid to even attempt to go there now.

marlewebber

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2010, 07:25:32 PM »
Echoing Tzaeru, I think its great that high level characters can get mugged.  Its gritty.  IC people should do something about it.  Who doesn't like a challenge?  Ideally the XP would be better to make it worth the trouble.

Emomina

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2010, 07:32:57 PM »
What is a chellenge to one is an impossibility to another. Place them in a dungeon similar to the smugglers, and let the effective builds go farm them, they should be an obstacle to movement for the common character though.
That's my stance.
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marlewebber

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2010, 07:36:29 PM »
Perhaps the really nasty NPCs should be out on "widows walk" (The docks) and further from the main transition... but they should also be in stealth by default, so you can't spy them from afar so easily.

Blacky Rose

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2010, 08:27:17 PM »
I havent seen them first hand so I cant comment, but just in general Im opposed to ANY bandit being that dangerous. If you want some insane elete spawn there cant we come up with something a little more fear inducing than...bandits? (in the Rp sence..since they seem to induce fear in the OOC sence quite well) To me THAT is an immercian breaker of epic magnatude. Its like in Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhall where even the common grunt fighters had +3 full plate and swords, and even the dogs were 90% magic resistant It just screams munchkin.

I'm inclined to agree with that. In my opinion it makes little sense for any manner of mortal bandit to be a significantly greater threat than werewolves, vampires, demons, golems etc found elsewhere in the module.
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tzaeru

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2010, 09:25:26 PM »
I havent seen them first hand so I cant comment, but just in general Im opposed to ANY bandit being that dangerous. If you want some insane elete spawn there cant we come up with something a little more fear inducing than...bandits? (in the Rp sence..since they seem to induce fear in the OOC sence quite well) To me THAT is an immercian breaker of epic magnatude. Its like in Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhall where even the common grunt fighters had +3 full plate and swords, and even the dogs were 90% magic resistant It just screams munchkin.

I'm inclined to agree with that. In my opinion it makes little sense for any manner of mortal bandit to be a significantly greater threat than werewolves, vampires, demons, golems etc found elsewhere in the module.

On the flipside is the problem that your average PC (last time I checked, 9.5 was the average level) is generally stronger than those horrors that are werewolves, vampires and such.

While I rather enjoy a ridicilously dangerous night with overly powerful enemies, it's indeed weird how Dementlieu is the place where one encounters them, but not Barovia. That's a bit odd balance.

Mcskinns

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2010, 09:38:17 PM »
Lets make them real muggers...

nerf the OnDeath scripts to leave the PC subdued(0hp and blacked out for a turn or two) if they fall to the gangs.  Strip the PC of all gold and add it to the one who landed the "killing blow"

Now players have a strong reason to hunt them down and try to get their coin back before they despawn or the server resets.

Or better yet, add in a small defended building somewhere and have the gold desposited into a chest that is heavily guarded(and possibly persistant). 

It could be really messy and have a couple of items be "stolen" and turn up a few hours later in the shop of a well known fence, of course... with a heavy fee to recover them.



Or... include an NPC working for the gangs who will offer a "pass" for a fee.  Then have them give the PC an item to allow safe passage through the area(alter the On Perception scripts to take note of the item in their inventory and change the faction setting)  The cost could range from cheap(low spawn) to pure extortion(on a high spawn).   Players can choose to accept the risk or cough up the coin.



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Aahz

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #39 on: July 31, 2010, 12:42:57 AM »
So we take a domain that is supposed to be about Psychological Horror and make it instead the Domain of cut-purses thieves and thugs?  Wouldn't it be more productive to keep Port-a-Lucine canon and create a new smaller custom domain to be "the land where all your stuff is stolen"? Heck it makes more sense that you would be mugged and your gold and items stolen at night in Blaustein, it is a domain of pirates after all.
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respawnaholic

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #40 on: July 31, 2010, 01:30:39 AM »
I havent seen them first hand so I cant comment, but just in general Im opposed to ANY bandit being that dangerous. If you want some insane elete spawn there cant we come up with something a little more fear inducing than...bandits? (in the Rp sence..since they seem to induce fear in the OOC sence quite well) To me THAT is an immercian breaker of epic magnatude. Its like in Baldur's Gate Throne of Bhall where even the common grunt fighters had +3 full plate and swords, and even the dogs were 90% magic resistant It just screams munchkin.

I'm inclined to agree with that. In my opinion it makes little sense for any manner of mortal bandit to be a significantly greater threat than werewolves, vampires, demons, golems etc found elsewhere in the module.

On the flipside is the problem that your average PC (last time I checked, 9.5 was the average level) is generally stronger than those horrors that are werewolves, vampires and such.

While I rather enjoy a ridicilously dangerous night with overly powerful enemies, it's indeed weird how Dementlieu is the place where one encounters them, but not Barovia. That's a bit odd balance.

I think that really adresses another issue tho. I dont see how any civilized area could support something THAT dangerous and still call itself civilized. I know it was kind of added on for the higher levels, but familiarity also breeds contempt. To get the proper feel of mystery and fear seriously dangerous encounters should be well off the beaten path. Kind of how the area around Vallaki is laid out. THAT makes logical sence from a persistant world standpoint. The more mundane horrors in town to terrorise the "commoners" and the more serious threats spaced out further and further from the Vallaki center. Argueing about weather their a worthy opponent for everyones favorite powerbuild seems to be missing the point.

k_moustakas

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #41 on: July 31, 2010, 02:03:23 AM »
Actually I think the whole gang-leader stuff was an attempt by the developers to catter to the players who complained that there is nothing to do in dementliue, nothing to help you earn gold and people never visit it. There had been a good number of topics on that. Now, I am not saying that making umber dungeons in a place will make it a hub -see barovia village- but at least it will get more visitors.

And funny enough, to make the terrors of the night frightening to people, we need a level cap of about 4 or 5. That's the limit for decimating werewolves I think.
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hugolino

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #42 on: July 31, 2010, 03:30:56 AM »
And funny enough, to make the terrors of the night frightening to people, we need a level cap of about 4 or 5. That's the limit for decimating werewolves I think.

Or rather, let the Mists whisk away anyone who chooses to level to 6 to a different domain, as they are wont to do, with no return possible to Barovia. Do the same at another level higher on with no return to Dementliu.

Either that or cap everyone at level 5. I used to disagree with such a notion but I am more inclined to accept and endorse it now.

Darktide18

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #43 on: July 31, 2010, 11:41:01 AM »
Same situation with the Scrags back before they were adjusted.  The fact of the matter is EO hates our guts and does this so we will all die!   :cry:

BLAME EO!

DM Tarokka

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HellsPanda

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #45 on: July 31, 2010, 12:29:49 PM »
well the scrags are a joke now

NightMood

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #46 on: July 31, 2010, 12:33:38 PM »
This server team gets a lot of things right:  The world has a theme that fosters immersion and roleplay, not just fighting some arbitrary collection of monsters.  Players can enjoy playing traditional classes and benefit from teamwork among those that are complementary, without resorting to everyone being some absurd "build" of NWN expansion niche classes never meant to be commonplace.  Basic magical items, wealth and experience are meaningful and a challenge to obtain.  And, crucially binding it all together, the DM staff is tremendously creative, involved, positive, and puts together events that are really well thought out, coordinated and executed.

Among all the worlds I've played, this one is by far the best.  To all those involved: well done.

With all of that said, now please allow me to cringe.  Placing an almost impossible to defeat mob along the only entry/exit route to one of the world's most fun and intriguing rp centers, thereby cutting it off from the rest half of the time for periods of more than one real hour, is completely disruptive to the natural flow of roleplay, including much that has been established.  I, personally, do not play a Dementlieu character, but I've immensely enjoyed playing with those who do and participating in a number or roleplay events in the Port.  Coming and going to those events is no longer a practical thing for many, even with help.

Yes, travel at night should be naturally hazardous to many, but one should be able to band together with those of mid-level experience, hire experienced protection, use practiced cunning, etc., and have at least a reasonable chance of passage.  To have to face not one but bands of calliban who most characters played for more than a year still can’t best just seems silly and runs counter to what makes this world fun for most to play.

High level characters absolutely need a place to go for challenge.  Please just put it somewhere else that doesn’t dramatically disrupt the game for the rest.

Nemien Callishan

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #47 on: July 31, 2010, 01:02:06 PM »
Dementlieu is supposed to be about psychological horror but has a very high crime rate (especialy violent crime). That crime has an underlying psychological nature behind it and that is the horror, not the muggings and the beatings themself. Dementlieu is also supposed to be a low level domain (with the gendarme being 2nd level fighters and the highest level npc in there being something like 7th-10th level).

I have no idea why it's been designed as the high level pit stop where people rush in, buy something then get out again as soon as they can. It would be nice for it to be nearer to it's low level concept but that's not the way it is on this server.

HellsPanda

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #48 on: July 31, 2010, 01:10:58 PM »
because PnP is a different animal than a PW

respawnaholic

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Re: How to die in five seconds or Going to the port at night.
« Reply #49 on: July 31, 2010, 02:42:34 PM »
Dementlieu is supposed to be about psychological horror but has a very high crime rate (especialy violent crime). That crime has an underlying psychological nature behind it and that is the horror, not the muggings and the beatings themself. Dementlieu is also supposed to be a low level domain (with the gendarme being 2nd level fighters and the highest level npc in there being something like 7th-10th level).

I have no idea why it's been designed as the high level pit stop where people rush in, buy something then get out again as soon as they can. It would be nice for it to be nearer to it's low level concept but that's not the way it is on this server.

It should be. ALL towns should be moderately low level, and the difficulty should increase the further out from the towns you travel.