Author Topic: New parry system  (Read 32806 times)

mayvind

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #25 on: June 02, 2010, 03:28:42 PM »
monk dont get the bonus till he/she equip a weapon, and it seem the bonus + x dont go away after unequiped

LoupGaroux

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #26 on: June 02, 2010, 04:02:45 PM »
Nope. Monks don't get the bonus unless equipping something, but most monks prefer unarmed that I've seen.

And, the bonus does in fact stick even after unequipping.

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2010, 04:58:46 PM »
Free relevels? God damn, I'm dead and this is heaven. You mean, I will fix ALL my characters and I don't have to beg, whine, cry, or do anything?!?
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Re: New parry system
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2010, 04:59:55 PM »
Can't argue with that. :)

It should for one give all those halberd using guards more of a chance too.

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Purist

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2010, 10:41:12 PM »
The skill should not grant AC bonus until the character enters parry mode, otherwise it is working like tumble, and feels imba IMO. And I do have a character with both skills.

Metal_ash

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #30 on: June 02, 2010, 11:14:32 PM »
The skill should not grant AC bonus until the character enters parry mode, otherwise it is working like tumble, and feels imba IMO. And I do have a character with both skills.

Does it makes a difference? I mean with a parrymode, all you have to do is to hit one button compared to how it is now.
Again i think this actually is cool, specially consider spears and halberds and such weapons you never seen now might be used some, also cool for RP that you actually not need to run around with a wall ( tower shield) in front of you to be able to survive. At least a bit of bonus to your AC anyways if you not be a really high level character and by then actually can replace a fancy tower shield.... but that also be to a good fair number of skill points spend along that road to get it, anyways...i like it.

Emomina

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #31 on: June 02, 2010, 11:15:46 PM »
otherwise it is working like tumble.

Its not working like tumble, its working considerably better than tumble. Shield AC is retained against all opponents.
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Metal_ash

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #32 on: June 02, 2010, 11:40:34 PM »
One thought i had on this was as it is shield AC maybe it actually could work with a shield but from the shield you only gain the base shield AC and not the +1 AC say from example a steel shield.
This i think would be good as some shield as the same as some weapons never get used as most prefere the shields that have AC bonus in them, and also would you not be able to parry even if you had a shield in one hand?
As AC bonus from items do not stack if there is of the same AC bonus type maybe it could work.
Maybe it would turn out to good but if you have parry 10 you would only have 1 point more AC then you had before this update, if you be one of them high levels and really put an effort in to it along skill points you would then have 3 more AC then you would have had before the update with a steel shield.
This could also close the gap some betwin casters such as clerics and them pure fighters and none casters as then the none casters of high level also can have good AC meanwhile the cleric can still cast his magic vastment on his shield and save his skillpoints for other things.

What i say is that i do love this but i also say you should gain in defence using a shield compared to one without as i think parry skill combined with a shield would be better then with only parry with a sword IRL.
Sword, shield and parry VS Sword and parry and both be as good swordsmans and skilled in the art of parry i say the one with the shield sure would have the upper hand.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2010, 11:46:09 PM by Metal_ash »

Metal_ash

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #33 on: June 02, 2010, 11:52:44 PM »
I for now have parry on 1 out of 5 characters, if it was to work as i mentioned in my previous post then maybe 4 out of 5 would have parry as skill and then we might have to MUCH of parry on the server all the sudden..hehe
As i said, just a thought though and maybe to good if it was to work that way.

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #34 on: June 03, 2010, 12:25:46 AM »
Well i changed my mind and jumped on the parry wagon with Androvia. She has a 15 parry so that should be +3 ac but when i equip her Longsword her char sheet don't change where ac is listed. Its says it goes up in the chat bar though so I'm wondering if its just not functioning as intended with Undead for some reason?

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Blacky Rose

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #35 on: June 03, 2010, 06:01:04 AM »
The skill should not grant AC bonus until the character enters parry mode, otherwise it is working like tumble, and feels imba IMO. And I do have a character with both skills.

Parry mode is a somewhat broken ability in NWN

Quote from:  Wikipedia/NWN Wiki
Parry allows the character to block incoming attacks and make spectacular counterattacks.

* Ability: dexterity

* Classes: barbarian, bard, blackguard, champion of Torm, cleric, druid, fighter, monk, paladin, ranger, red dragon disciple, rogue

* Cross-Class: yes

* Requires Training: no

* Check: The difficulty class is the modified attack roll of the incoming blow. A successful parry means that the attack does not damage the parrying character. A character may only parry a number of attacks per round equal to the number of attacks per round available to the character.

* Special: Wearing armor may incur a penalty to the roll. If the parry is successful and the difference between the roll and the DC is ten points or greater, a counterattack occurs. A counterattack is a free attack made by the parrying character, at his full attack bonus, against the parried opponent.

* Use: Select the parry mode. The character will remain in parry mode until the mode is exited.

Notes

* Parry is a combat mode, so cannot be used at the same time as other combat modes.

* This skill was reduced from its original (pre-release) state and is considerably less effective than it may sound. Parry can only deflect the first attack in each of the three flurries in a round (for example, parrying an opponent with 5 attacks per round will only attempt to block the first, third, and fifth attacks).

* Riposte attacks are made with the character's normal (descending) attack bonus, not at full bonus each time. Thus if a character has an attack schedule of +16/+11/+6 and successfully ripostes two attacks, the riposte attacks will be at +16 then +11, not at +16 each time.

So to elaborate, attacks come in 3 flurries. If you have six attacks per round, your round would look like:

Flurry 1: Attack 1, 2 Flurry 2: Attack 3, 4 Flurry 3: Attack 5, 6

Ten attacks per round would look like:

Flurry 1: Attack 1, 2, 3, 4 Flurry 2: Attack 5, 6, 7 Flurry 3: Attack 8, 9, 10

Parry will interact with that table for determining which of your attacks for the round are used to attempt a riposte against an incoming attack.

Using the above, a character with 6 attacks per round will attempt to parry incoming attacks 1, 3, and 5, which have a better chance of landing against your AC than the scenario of having 10 attacks per round in Parry mode (you would try to parry attacks 1, 5, and 8, which have significantly lower chances of hitting your AC). So, a higher number of attacks per round would increase the chances of a successful Riposte attack (since the modified incoming attack roll is guaranteed to be less). However, having less attacks per round means you are probably going to deflect more incoming attacks (assuming the parry score is far higher than the character's AC).

If a character is surrounded, due to ripostes they cannot keep attacking one target so it causes the circle kick phenomena where a fight takes 2-3 times longer to finish since each of the surrounding enemies is damaged in turn (in the end having them all near death before finally killing them) which also means they can keep hitting you. And the enemies who are not parried can attack the character with impunity.

So to sum that up, Expertise is far superior to Parry mode, and both cannot be used simultaneously. Also granting extra AC in parry mode works somewhat counter-actively to it as a character benefits from low AC (attacks must hit to be parried) while in parry mode.

I find the recent implementation of Parry as 'passive AC skill' working fine as it makes finesse characters with higher skill point gain and whose theme does not favor a shield more competitive in gameplay.
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Purist

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #36 on: June 03, 2010, 10:10:08 AM »
Nah. I still think entering the parry mode is more reasonable. Which is more balanced?

Having a free +4 AC (20 ranks in parry) attacking normally.
or
Having a +4 AC (20 ranks in parry) counterattacking some attacks on you.

Finesse characters are made to duel or fight within a group, not to solo a party by themselves, IMO. +4 means that you have a good and weightless tower shield, not to mention +1(+2 in some situations I think) for two weapon defense, which makes +5 or +6 AC bonus without the best shield.

Expertise is superior to parry. But you also lose attack bonus. Think if one has enough ranks and proper gear one can parry all attacks that he'd roll for.

Blacky Rose

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #37 on: June 03, 2010, 10:56:24 AM »
Nah. I still think entering the parry mode is more reasonable. Which is more balanced?

Having a free +4 AC (20 ranks in parry) attacking normally.
or
Having a +4 AC (20 ranks in parry) counterattacking some attacks on you.

Finesse characters are made to duel or fight within a group, not to solo a party by themselves, IMO. +4 means that you have a good and weightless tower shield, not to mention +1(+2 in some situations I think) for two weapon defense, which makes +5 or +6 AC bonus without the best shield.

Expertise is superior to parry. But you also lose attack bonus. Think if one has enough ranks and proper gear one can parry all attacks that he'd roll for.

To clarify:

Quote from:  Bioware forums
Firstly you could have 10 attacks per round, turn on parry and it no longer matters since the maximum attacks you can counter attack is 3, regardless of the actual attacks available to you.

You can also only parry 1 attack per flurry per opponent. So someone attacking you with 4 attacks will actually not get parried on their 2nd attack. Someone with 5 will not get paried on their 2nd and 4th and someone with 6 attacks will not get parried on 2nd/4th and 6th attacks etc.

Also if your opponent requires a 20 to hit you they will never get parried either. Since 20 not only bypasses whatever AC you have but also bypasses parry. So if you have 50 AC and you have a hasted dual wielding fighter(with haste) attacking you and his AB is 40 then it goes like this

1st Attack roll +40 AB. Rolls of 1-9 miss no parry/no counter attack. Rolls of 10-20 possible counter if you can roll 50-60+10 on your parry roll.
2nd Attack Roll(2nd attack in 1st flurry) - automatically bypasses parry no effect.
3rd Attack Roll (3rd attack in 1st flurry)- Automatically bypasses parry no effect
4th attack Roll - Requires a roll of 20 to hit - Rolls of 1-19 are not affected by parry. Rolls of 20 bypass parry and hit
5th attack Roll(2nd attack in 2nd flurry) - Automatically bypasses Parry
6th Attack Roll +40AB Rolls of 1-9 miss no parry/no counter. Rolls of 10-20 possible counter attack if you can roll 50-60+10 on your parry roll.
7th Attack Roll Automatically bypasses parry because its 2nd attack in flurry

So if you initially had 4 attacks per round you now have a possible 2 that will only occur if you first make a roll of 60-70 on your parry check. For this you have the opportunity to parry 2 of your attacks 7 attacks.

To sum up:

If you have an AC significantly higher than your parry skill then the parry skill will never get a chance to be used.

DC for parry roll was the opponents attack roll. For parry to be checked you must first be hit.

So with a low AC you parry more attacks. If your AC is 20 more than your opponents AB then parry will never be checked.

If your AC is 20 more than your parry skill. Then parry will never succeed the DC roll. 20 is not an automatic success. Since the AB would be mroe than 20 higher than your parry skill if they scored a hit.

Even when the situation is reversed, it is not that useful:

If you have AC 40, parry 60 and lets say the attacker has AB 40 with 4 attacks

1st attack parry most likely counter likely
2nd attack no parry
3rd attack attack rolls 1-9 miss,10-19 parried rolls of 20 hit
4th attack attack rolls 1-14 miss, 15-19 parried. 20 hits

So of the 1st attacks you have 95% chance to parry and a 95% chance of a counter attack
2nd attacks 0% chance of parry 0% chance of counter
3rd attack 45% chance of parry, 45% chance of counter
4th attack 25% chance of parry, 25% chance of counter.

You pretty pretty much turn the situation into a longer battle with both people doing much less damage.
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LoLJohnFerro

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #38 on: June 03, 2010, 11:14:46 AM »
John Ferro:
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harlock

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #39 on: June 03, 2010, 01:27:58 PM »

Expertise is superior to parry. But you also lose attack bonus. Think if one has enough ranks and proper gear one can parry all attacks that he'd roll for.

It's not like that. Parry doesn't work like it's described on the skill. The skill says that you can roll a parry to avoid an attack and that the numbers of attacks you can parry is equal to your total attacks but it's not like this. I looked in to parry to other forums as well and it looks like you can parry the 1st,3rd and fifth attack if i'm not wrong.
I made a topic to see how exactly parry works on our server and zaratustra came with that idea of shield ac. The other option was to make parry work like it's discribed, parry attacks equal to the number of attacks you have. It's nice to see characters adding more intelligence to get the skill points parry requires to get the ac, and for it to be halved with large weapons, and none with range is good idea as well...
Last let me add that we have great items for parry in the server, that will make lot people focus on parry not just for ac. What i'm trying to say is that they gave a boost to a complete useless skill ti now.

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #40 on: June 03, 2010, 01:33:33 PM »
Not to be rude, as I'm glad you are showing interest in this all, but it would be great if we kept the focus of this topic to the actual new parry system, and perhaps discuss NWN's default in the old topic.

Last update should have fixed most issues with parry. How does it generally feel now? And what have people had of experiences with it so far? Both in combat, but also in terms of new character designs.

Metal_ash

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #41 on: June 03, 2010, 02:11:42 PM »
My experience of the parry now is a good feeling, most for the chance to actually create a  character that not need a shield to have some decent AC.
For me it feels nice to have one more choice in how i create my character.

mayvind

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #42 on: June 03, 2010, 02:19:08 PM »
Seem to be working as intended right now, also i need to relevel my druid because it seem i don't get parry on my shifter form though i don't need to take improve unarm due to shiftform use special creature attack and not the fist itself.

Telkar

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #43 on: June 03, 2010, 03:04:49 PM »
It seems to work well now. The ac bonus disappears when I unequip now.

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #44 on: June 03, 2010, 04:37:37 PM »
*Hand-raising* Quick query on my half here! So if you're wearing heavy armor (which visibly lowers your Parry score), does that mean you actually lose the extra AC granted by your ranks in Parry? Or is that just a visual thing?

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #45 on: June 03, 2010, 04:45:44 PM »
That is totaly Visual as my many testings of the system with dear old lol john ferro I have discovered that the new parry system is excellent and is going as needed and any reducement from armor does not in the least affect it. :)

Shadowthrone

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #46 on: June 03, 2010, 04:49:53 PM »
I admit I had reservations but this seems pretty fine.

The only real bug at the moment seems to be the bonus doesn't go when you unequip your weapons and even remains if you equip a bow afterwards.

Telkar

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #47 on: June 03, 2010, 05:27:37 PM »
*Hand-raising* Quick query on my half here! So if you're wearing heavy armor (which visibly lowers your Parry score), does that mean you actually lose the extra AC granted by your ranks in Parry? Or is that just a visual thing?

You don't loose it with armor penalty. The parry ac works like tumble, that is, only the ranks you invest are counted in.

Edit: woops, didn't notice the posts after that one.


I admit I had reservations but this seems pretty fine.

The only real bug at the moment seems to be the bonus doesn't go when you unequip your weapons and even remains if you equip a bow afterwards.

That should be fixed by now. There was an update.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2010, 05:30:42 PM by Telkar »

Shadowthrone

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #48 on: June 03, 2010, 05:32:22 PM »
I admit I had reservations but this seems pretty fine.

The only real bug at the moment seems to be the bonus doesn't go when you unequip your weapons and even remains if you equip a bow afterwards.

That should be fixed by now. There was an update.

I'm aware, but it still happens to me.

hugolino

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Re: New parry system
« Reply #49 on: June 03, 2010, 05:50:27 PM »
I admit I had reservations but this seems pretty fine.

The only real bug at the moment seems to be the bonus doesn't go when you unequip your weapons and even remains if you equip a bow afterwards.

That should be fixed by now. There was an update.

I'm aware, but it still happens to me.

Strangely it no longer happens to me.