Author Topic: Listen VS Move silent  (Read 2043 times)

Metal_ash

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 871
Listen VS Move silent
« on: May 28, 2010, 12:01:44 PM »
This thread is to the DMs and developers and i would be a happy camper if they was the ones to answer here as i not want another discussion thread about stalk and sneak but just a few answers on what the thoughts is behind it.
I chose to post it on open forum anyways as i do know more then my self is interested to see the answers.

Since my return to the server after been gone for 3 month i notice there is a good number of Listen items that have been added to the server.
This making the work as a stalker really hard and close to impossible towards the one with right gear on, this is no complaints of any kind. I not really mind it have become much harder for the sneakers out there but i do wonder anyways about balance betwin Listen VS move silent.

Some Items:
Listen gear.
-Helm of the bat +5 Listen (common drop)
-Elf ear neckless +3 listen (seems to be a rather common drop as i have found two since my return)
-Lesser jackals ring +3 Listen (common drop)
-Jackals ring +5 Listen (Rare drop to maybe really rare)

Move Silent gear:
-Cloak of Silence +6 MS (Extremely rare to maybe even just a DM drop)
-Desert Cats belt +5 MS (extremely rare)
-Wraith Belt +3 MS (really rare)
-Shadowed armour +4 MS ( extremely rare)
-Forest Walker armour +6 MS ( Think it only be DM drop these days)
-Rogues Garb +3 MS (rare drop)
- Ebon Nights armour +4 MS (really rare)
-Stalkers bows +3 MS (DM drop only these days i think)
-Sniper bows +2 MS (DM drop only these days i think)
-Cat walk boots +2 MS (rare drop)
-Hectors thread Boots +5 MS (Extremely Rare)
-Red Vardo Boots +4 MS ( Faction item only)
-Soft leather boots +1 (can be bought and a common drop)

I might have missed some items but that matters little, if you look over this items you soon see that most sneak gear is really hard to find and some of them not longer even drop ( At least have i not found them for a great time)

The who uses the listen skills also get +5 listen from standing still.
 
Both skills can be boosted from magic but even there more so on listen then on MS.

After been active for about a week again and not done much of dungeons i have allready picked up three lesser jackals rings, two elf ear neckless-es and a 3 of helm of the bats.
If i am not wrong here the absolute best you can add to MS through gear is + 20 and that is with gear that either is DM drop only or extremely rare.
While Listen gear seems to actually drop all over from items alone a + 18, 23 when standing still, With the gear i have picked up i a week +14 on Listen from them items alone.
Most of the Move Silent gear i mention here i can say that most common players on the server have never even heard of:)

There is also actually more feats to add to listen on the server to then there is that add to MS, But feats i leave out here as we can assume that the player who wants to be good in something grabs whats available to them.

Anyways, some answers from DM and developers would be nice, just to hear the thoughts behind all this listen items that have been put in... and please remember that this is no complains or anything like that, just thoughts and questions:)

//cheers!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 12:53:25 PM by Metal_ash »

Shadowthrone

  • Guest
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2010, 12:25:10 PM »
+5 Jackal's Rings are not rare, I've found upwards of forty since they were introduced. They're not on the market because my Rogue isn't an idiot.

Kaspar

  • Guest
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2010, 12:54:41 PM »
It's not so much the gear that's the problem. The "imbalance" is mostly due to Amplify and Claro. I've seen a lot more stealth gear dropping lately, and you just need to hit specific dungeons in order to retrieve it. My suggestion would be to remove all Amplify and Claro scrolls. A sneaks only worry would be a Bard in that case for the amplify.

Lets say my level 17 main was a rogue instead of a bard, with all the current listen gear and +5 from the focus feats. He'd have about 54 listen with a Claro potion (They don't last long) as opposed to 74 which spots anything currently. The 54 is still a bit excessive and it can pick up any sneak eventually but if you spent feats and time focusing on doing exactly that then you should benefit from it.

In truth, if the Devs decided to pull all of the Jackal rings I wouldn't mind.  I don't have a sneak, but I can feel their pain because my bards listen is disgustingly stupid with the rings.

Taty

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1706
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2010, 01:14:29 PM »
Also it should be noted that rogue feats are screwy too. What are supposed to be free feats over 10th arent and so a higher level rogues feats are all gobbled up taking their new rogue only feats. Suz as a 16th lvl rogue had to just forget stealth because the feats simply werent there to add the numerous focuses in MS need to have a fighting chance, and she has pretty good gear.

 I know few take pure rogue so this issue is low priority but it may be worth looking at. There is just something wrong about a 16th level rogue with great gear not being able to sneak past an 8th lvl character because they have common gear which happens to include easily obtained listen rings.

~Taty~

Emomina

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2655
  • PotM OG
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2010, 01:26:31 PM »
sneaking is useless against anyone that even gives a thought to detection

Springer

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2010, 01:48:22 PM »
I gotta agree that rogue special feats should be extra ones at 10th, 13th, 16th and 19th levels.
Considering that only pure rogues will get all four of them, and to get even two would need 13 th level I doubt it would be imbalanced ( combined with multiclass rules)

I also think that helm of the bat is the main issue. Because -5 spot cant compensate for +5 listen. Just because  character can detect with listen alone due to game mechanic. SO people may dont bother with spot and I doubt they would bother if they have -5 spot or 0.
Ricard Dateel
Tullus Araphenson

Metal_ash

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 871
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2010, 02:02:46 PM »
The rings even more so then that helmet, as you can get +10 from two such rings, and as Peasant mentioned -amplify and the spells like that makes it impossible to sneak past anyone with such spells.

And as some may know or not know, Standing still will not make you immune to listens checks as they can still hear you even if you not moving, that though be cause of game mechanics.

Try to keep this topic clean though as i do hope the DMs and Dev's will answer what the thoughts is behind all this listen items.
Maybe the thought is to make it impossible to sneak past anyone that bothers to listen for sneakers, maybe they just wanted to make it harder but failed a bit there and put in to many, to easy to get and to powerfull listen items :D

I do play two sneakers, but again i not complain or want to argue in anyway, just really interested to hear what they have to say and interested to hear that i am not alone to be.

//Cheers!
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 02:14:16 PM by Metal_ash »

Emomina

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 2655
  • PotM OG
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2010, 07:13:00 PM »
To be frank about it, sneaking is quite simply not useful against anyone that wants to detect. There were more times than I can count that Reiko was in full stealth mode and buffed for it to +57 ms and it was not one or two around that would hear but several characters that would. There was no way to increase the MS any further, the only improvements to her MS would have been the final 6 skill points. She had all the gear, and used all the buffs, including empowered cats grace.

Conversely, she had no feats for listen and no wisdom modifier, and wearing all the items, she had +43 listen, and would easily have been able to hear herself while standing still.

The items alone make the gap too narrow to go unnoticed,  but being able to further buff listen makes it impossible. There is not a sneak on the server, active or inactive, that can overcome a +50 listen character standing still.

Metal_ash

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 871
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2010, 10:18:12 PM »
Yeah, and the listen gear seems to drop all over the place..hmm*rubs head*

Ah well... still hope for one that knows the reason to why all this listen items was put in to the server answers, and by such we all can have a better understanding for it :D

Dhark

  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1143
  • Ladul !
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2010, 10:35:09 PM »
sneaking is useless against anyone that even gives a thought to detection

I have played a few rogues , yeah Im no NwN stat geek , but the above quote seems to ring true.
Unless the creature you are trying to sneak past is so below your martial skill, its pointless, most often it quicker soloing the creatures with piercing than it is to attempt  to creep past.

As for other players , forget it .  Most palyers who havent even put any points in detection skills will notice you, ones that have, you will never out fox.

I questioned a longtime player recently with "I wonder what Soren did to the scripts to alter sneaking?"
The answer "they are unaltered" kind of shocked me.

I think the call for Rogue only Sneak items is being sounded loud & clear ....I have seen the dream of "pure rogue" chars as a futile struggle by those who adore this class. Yeah its not a educated or informed post, but its friom the heart.

I dont think we want rogues to be the new uber class , but credit to thier skills & points spent would be nice to see.
« Last Edit: May 28, 2010, 10:46:01 PM by Tarinyar »

hugolino

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 528
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2010, 11:45:55 PM »
I think the call for Rogue only Sneak items is being sounded loud & clear ....I have seen the dream of "pure rogue" chars as a futile struggle by those who adore this class. Yeah its not a educated or informed post, but its friom the heart.

I dont think we want rogues to be the new uber class , but credit to thier skills & points spent would be nice to see.
What about monks, bards and rangers who also can be true sneakers? (Yes, I do have a pure rogue, but I also have all of the other classes too.) Are you suggesting a call to boost pure rogues at the expense of other sneaking classes? If so, I'm undecided how I feel about that idea...

Vespertilio

  • Never met a Dark Lord, not a
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1638
  • We can't stop here, this is bat country!
    • Messages from Nihil
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #11 on: May 29, 2010, 12:40:46 AM »
I agree with the above, a 'sneak', a very good sneak, doesn't have to be a rogue.  Monks, which have to be pure on NWN are very well inclined to being light footed and aware.    Like rangers, monks make great sneaks with a lot of natural aptitude towards detection.  There are a few pcs of both the monk and pure ranger classes who are quite adept at sneaking.




I could just run into the room and punch you in the balls; sure, that's scary. That's entertainment. But it isn't horror...

Springer

  • Dark Lord
  • *****
  • Posts: 509
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #12 on: May 29, 2010, 01:45:15 AM »
I believe that rangers are the best sneakers actually. With their spells (one with the land, cat's grace,camouflage) and trackless step feat.
Ricard Dateel
Tullus Araphenson

Zarathustra217

  • Lead director, main scripter, nutty geek, Community Council
  • Administrator
  • Dark Power
  • *
  • Posts: 12676
  • a.k.a. Søren
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #13 on: May 29, 2010, 04:37:58 AM »
There's an extensive discussion on this already here:

http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=19149.0

Concerning the frequency of items dropped, what determines it is mainly the amount of roughly same priced items in the loot of the same theme. (Our main treasure themes are wondrous, sinister, nature, rogue, monk, wizard and holy).

It suggests we are lacking jewelry of roughly same pricing and theme as the current ones, so you can help balance out the frequency by suggesting more items. I think most of the jewelry is in wondrous, which is just a generic theme for what does not apply to the other.

Shadowthrone

  • Guest
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #14 on: May 29, 2010, 08:17:47 PM »
Stealth items do seem slightly more common than when last we discussed this. I'm pretty sure most of the stuff I wear didn't drop then, but I've heard of at least some of it dropping recently.

The gear is out there, which is good. As long as it's available, I'm happy that new sneaks at least stand a chance of not completely sucking forever. I'm still not happy with the jackal's ring drop rate, but apparantly we just need to make more jewellery. I guess my Ring of Silence doesn't count. ;)

High-end stealth gear is in the loot tables, and considering how powerful stealth can be in the hands of someone that, frankly, knows how to play, I think the drop rate is a non-issue for the most part. Jackal's Rings are severely imbalanced, but that's never going to change, so I'm not arguing that point.
« Last Edit: May 29, 2010, 08:21:33 PM by Sheltatha »

Vespertilio

  • Never met a Dark Lord, not a
  • Dark Power
  • ******
  • Posts: 1638
  • We can't stop here, this is bat country!
    • Messages from Nihil
Re: Listen VS Move silent
« Reply #15 on: May 30, 2010, 05:10:09 PM »
Stealth items do seem slightly more common than when last we discussed this. I'm pretty sure most of the stuff I wear didn't drop then, but I've heard of at least some of it dropping recently.

The gear is out there, which is good. As long as it's available, I'm happy that new sneaks at least stand a chance of not completely sucking forever.

I don't play a new sneak (2+ years now) but I'm still VERY delighted at being able to access items via loot tables that were up till now were seemingly impossible to acquire via other means.



I could just run into the room and punch you in the balls; sure, that's scary. That's entertainment. But it isn't horror...