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Author Topic: Multiclass Restrictions  (Read 16238 times)

Minstrel

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #25 on: May 18, 2010, 11:56:24 AM »
A druid/monk enables a shifted form with 6 more AC plus monk immunities and feats.
A paladin/monk enables 6 turns per attack while doing paladin damage
A wizard/monk isn't all too different than wizard/rogue, but it allows atleast 3 more AC if nothing else
paly/sorc has ridiculous AC potential, especially when it opens up paly/sorc/rdd

But if you consider the max 10 level separation:

Druid/Monk would have to lose it's ninth level spells, as well as it's elemental shapes. 19 Druid/1 Monk would be an awesome Shapechanged or Polymorphed combatant, but due to the rules, you won't get access to Shapechange or any Wildshape better than Dire Bear with massive Wis AC. Which would be fairly impressive, but not grossly over-powerful when compared to an Iron Golem or Red Dragon. Not to mention you're losing caster levels for things like Premonition.

Paladin/Monk would possibly be okay, but I assume you'd be going unarmed for those six attacks, which is questionable enough in itself for powerbuild, since you'll have only five Monk levels. A monk themselves would get six attacks and much better other bonuses too.

A wizard/monk would lose it's ninth level spells and all-helpful caster levels, and gain what exactly?

A paly/sorc/RDD might be okay. 9 Paladin/1 Sorc/10 RDD, I assume? This gives you a really high Str Paladin. But the synergy with sorc isn't that great, you're just using Sorc as a path to RDD. But I can't really expect this build to grossly outperform, say, a similar level pureclass Paladin, Cleric, or Sorc. You're gaining the whole 8 Str, AC, charisma and such, but losing your GMW spells, caster levels, the awesome spell that is Holy Avenger (Equivalent to a Mords on-hit 25% of the time, not to mention the other bonuses) and probably losing one attack.

The 10 max level difference rule is suprisingly useful for breaking the advantage of these powerbuilds.

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #26 on: May 18, 2010, 12:30:28 PM »
Reviewing the source material on FR monk and paladin orders I provided, lets take a look at these suggestioned builds too.

Druid/Monk: There are no druid deities that correspond with a monk order which allow this class combination.

Paladin/Monk: There are no two orders (belonging to one of each class) that would allow this build to be legal.

Wizard/Monk: Legal, but as Minstrel pointed out, you're taking a loss.

As for the Paladin / Sorc / RDD.. I think this is one of those examples of someone looking at their build rather then fleshing out a character.

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #27 on: May 18, 2010, 01:07:42 PM »
I don't think anybody really dedicated to RP should be looking at or caring about what class other people are playing and whether or not they are powerbuilding. Most if not all of the people I know who provide long term, dedicated, dynamic and immersive roleplay to the server as a whole have powerful builds and/or characters.

I don't care, basically, as long as you RP. People who get hot under the collar about certain builds or classes really need to get a life and/or some perspective.

Mordch

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #28 on: May 18, 2010, 01:17:23 PM »
Quote
I don't think anybody really dedicated to RP should be looking at or caring about what class other people are playing and whether or not they are powerbuilding.

I care. I rather play with Jim the druid who wants to bash in my skull for burning down the woods for giggles, rather than with Bob the atheist cleric barbarian who is the nicest guy to me in the whole wide world.

tzaeru

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #29 on: May 18, 2010, 02:09:14 PM »
Bob the atheist cleric barbarian

Haha, this was so damn funny - and mostly because it's true.  :lol:

As for the Paladin / Sorc / RDD.. I think this is one of those examples of someone looking at their build rather then fleshing out a character.

On top of that, combination such as the above is plain impossible. There's no way in the world that, if DnD and Ravenloft rules are followed, such a character could ever exist. Turning to RDD is in my opinion automatic loss of all paladin abilities and a rebuild to fighter. I utterly fail to see how any paladin religion would allow turning off from the path of paladinhood to that of blood-tied dragon heritage awakening. It's pretty much breaking the paladin oath imho. Even DPs don't look past that, right?

And another thing; It's a bit saddening if the reason why app for multiclassing monk and paladin can't be allowed because players lack responsibility to not choose outright powerbuilds in the expense of enjoyment of others. Good roleplayer or not, some sense is in order anyway.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 02:11:15 PM by tzaeru »

Vegas

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #30 on: May 18, 2010, 02:44:27 PM »
I utterly fail to see how any paladin religion would allow turning off from the path of paladinhood to that of blood-tied dragon heritage awakening.

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #31 on: May 18, 2010, 02:54:23 PM »
no paladin order would allow walking the path of the Red Dragon Disciples.... Silver sure, but not Red

Vegas

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #32 on: May 18, 2010, 03:09:07 PM »
no paladin order would allow walking the path of the Red Dragon Disciples.... Silver sure, but not Red

So, according to the evidence you found backing up the objective statement you just made (which I'm sure you'll be more than happy to share with the rest of us), Bahamut would, without any exceptions whatsoever, scorn any paladin who has served him faithfully for years just because the paladin in question found out he has the blood of a chromatic dragon coursing through his veins. Even though said paladin may be the most noble, pure, courageous defender of Good the multiverse has ever seen, right?

You'll have to forgive me if I disagree. I was under the apparently false belief that PCs are meant to be exceptional, beyond-the-normal examples of their respective races/religions/groups/families/whatever, and that stories involving those types of characters can be very, very compelling, if handled well by the players and DMs involved. How naive of me.

EDIT:
I utterly fail to see how any paladin religion would allow turning off from the path of paladinhood to that of blood-tied dragon heritage awakening.

Where was the mention of the specific color of the dragon-blooded paladin? Regardless, I think my point remains valid no matter what color-type the paladin may be descended from.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 03:12:05 PM by Vegas »

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #33 on: May 18, 2010, 03:20:46 PM »
We have the rules for paladins and monks in place in part because of the 3.5 d20 SRD:

Quote
Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

Quote
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

Since we have no way of implementing this mechanically, we just don't allow multiclassing for monks or paladins. As for "special" exceptions like in Forgotten Realms, this isn't the Forgotten Realms, and those organizations/religions don't exist here.

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Minstrel

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #34 on: May 18, 2010, 05:39:41 PM »
Then again, neither do their Gods, so technically you could do anything as a Paladin and probably not be disfavoured by your God because your God has been replaced by the Dark Powers. :D

Bluebomber4evr

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #35 on: May 18, 2010, 06:07:13 PM »
Then again, neither do their Gods, so technically you could do anything as a Paladin and probably not be disfavoured by your God because your God has been replaced by the Dark Powers. :D
That's not entirely true and is a pretty common misconception.

While the gods cannot intervene directly in Ravenloft, and it is possible for the DPs to replace them, they are not always replaced. Either way, that's a pretty poor justification for going against the 3.5 D&D rules.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2010, 06:10:31 PM by Bluebomber4evr »

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Nemien Callishan

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #36 on: May 18, 2010, 07:09:04 PM »
I am of the opinion that any individual can generate an IC reason as an excuse for their powerbuild and thus an application process may not filter out those who may be a bit more convincing in their 'stories'.

Oh please no. I've seen one player come up with, what many acclaimed "really great background stories" to validate recreating the same powergamed character time and time again. It got really boring.

Antonus Taran

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #37 on: May 18, 2010, 10:53:29 PM »
THE WEAKER YOUR BUILD THE BETTAR YOUR ARPEE
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Minstrel

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #38 on: May 19, 2010, 06:22:21 AM »
Then again, neither do their Gods, so technically you could do anything as a Paladin and probably not be disfavoured by your God because your God has been replaced by the Dark Powers. :D
That's not entirely true and is a pretty common misconception.

While the gods cannot intervene directly in Ravenloft, and it is possible for the DPs to replace them, they are not always replaced. Either way, that's a pretty poor justification for going against the 3.5 D&D rules.

Agreed. Still, Ravenloft allows for a lot of crazy stuff regarding religious characters, which makes the fact that Clerics can go greatly against their Gods dogma with IC reason all the more mind-numbing.

Vegas

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #39 on: May 19, 2010, 02:29:37 PM »
THE WEAKER YOUR BUILD THE BETTAR YOUR ARPEE


Really? Like, for real?? Please, please, please tell me this is sarcastic.

Because if not, I'd like to point out that the perceived "strength" and/or "weakness" of any build has absolutely nothing to do with a players role-playing capabilities.

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #40 on: May 19, 2010, 02:40:21 PM »
THE WEAKER YOUR BUILD THE BETTAR YOUR ARPEE


Really? Like, for real?? Please, please, please tell me this is sarcastic.

Because if not, I'd like to point out that the perceived "strength" and/or "weakness" of any build has absolutely nothing to do with a players role-playing capabilities.
He's being totally sarcastic (hence the ALL CAPS ;)) and mocking one of the sillier misconceptions common to NWN

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Vegas

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #41 on: May 19, 2010, 03:16:58 PM »
He's being totally sarcastic (hence the ALL CAPS ;)) and mocking one of the sillier misconceptions common to NWN

Ok, awesome :) I'm still getting used to the dynamics of the people posting in the forums, so I wasn't 100% sure.

But in that case, I would like to replace my previous post with a hearty "LOL".

Ophie Kitty

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #42 on: May 19, 2010, 04:32:01 PM »
THE WEAKER YOUR BUILD THE BETTAR YOUR ARPEE

6con, 8cha elf sorcerer coming up!

Emomina

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #43 on: May 19, 2010, 04:48:09 PM »
after trying to come up with an equally weak build, and failing to, I bow down to the awesome weakness of 2hp/level and no spells.
Rhymo will have difficulty making the RP up to the amazing standard that the builds lacking mandates!
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Nemien Callishan

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #44 on: May 19, 2010, 05:47:35 PM »
THE WEAKER YOUR BUILD THE BETTAR YOUR ARPEE

6con, 8cha elf sorcerer coming up!

Now when did I last play  ahalf orc bard? ..... :p

tzaeru

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #45 on: May 19, 2010, 09:29:29 PM »
no paladin order would allow walking the path of the Red Dragon Disciples.... Silver sure, but not Red

So, according to the evidence you found backing up the objective statement you just made (which I'm sure you'll be more than happy to share with the rest of us), Bahamut would, without any exceptions whatsoever, scorn any paladin who has served him faithfully for years just because the paladin in question found out he has the blood of a chromatic dragon coursing through his veins. Even though said paladin may be the most noble, pure, courageous defender of Good the multiverse has ever seen, right?

Paladins, their oath and deities are - usually - combination of law, tradition, and good. What's fair is rarely how it simply is what comes to deities.. As a practical example, my paladin of Helm would automatically be an ex-paladin if he didn't sacrifice himself to defend a child in need. No matter if, doing otherwise, would safe his own life and 1000 other adults. He'd still be ex-paladin, until atoning.

I utterly fail to see how any paladin religion would allow turning off from the path of paladinhood to that of blood-tied dragon heritage awakening.

Paladin of Bahamut

I stand corrected, though seems it's the 4th edition of DnD which introduced Bahamut as more commonly worshipped by human LG paladins.

THE WEAKER YOUR BUILD THE BETTAR YOUR ARPEE

6con, 8cha elf sorcerer coming up!

Now when did I last play  ahalf orc bard? ..... :p

Go my tiefling bard. ECL and -2 charisma, woohoo.

THE WEAKER YOUR BUILD THE BETTAR YOUR ARPEE


Really? Like, for real?? Please, please, please tell me this is sarcastic.

Because if not, I'd like to point out that the perceived "strength" and/or "weakness" of any build has absolutely nothing to do with a players role-playing capabilities.
He's being totally sarcastic (hence the ALL CAPS ;)) and mocking one of the sillier misconceptions common to NWN

Though I'd dare to claim that even this one, like so many other myths and misconceptions, stems from a seed of truth. Strengths and weaknesses are covered by roleplaying capabilities and an exceptional roleplayer creates intriguing stories, as much for the enjoyment of others as for his own, by cleverly thought out strengths and weaknesses - and those, imo, can and often should be reflected in the build as well.

This, of course, isn't to say that weaker build is automatically a better player, but I dare to claim that a trend exists between certain kind of building and story-telling capability.

Vegas

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #46 on: May 19, 2010, 10:18:28 PM »
no paladin order would allow walking the path of the Red Dragon Disciples.... Silver sure, but not Red

So, according to the evidence you found backing up the objective statement you just made (which I'm sure you'll be more than happy to share with the rest of us), Bahamut would, without any exceptions whatsoever, scorn any paladin who has served him faithfully for years just because the paladin in question found out he has the blood of a chromatic dragon coursing through his veins. Even though said paladin may be the most noble, pure, courageous defender of Good the multiverse has ever seen, right?

Paladins, their oath and deities are - usually - combination of law, tradition, and good. What's fair is rarely how it simply is what comes to deities.. As a practical example, my paladin of Helm would automatically be an ex-paladin if he didn't sacrifice himself to defend a child in need. No matter if, doing otherwise, would safe his own life and 1000 other adults. He'd still be ex-paladin, until atoning.

I'm sorry, but I cannot agree that ALL paladins and ALL deityies can be compared using the same set of criteria. PCs are unusual, beyond the norm, and as such cannot be measured by the same stick that NPCs are. And, being LG as a deity does not automatically mean that deity is a strict and unforgiving father figure. Alignment is a means for narrowing down moral and ethical philosophies, not pigeon-holing somebody into a certain set of behaviors.

That being said, what is true for your paladin of Helm is not automatically true for my paladin of Bahamut. And do yourself a favor, please. Go read up on Bahamut. By all canonical accounts, you should find that he is not a deity to turn ANYONE away without really good reason, even if that person finds out they may be descended from a line of chromatic dragons.


I utterly fail to see how any paladin religion would allow turning off from the path of paladinhood to that of blood-tied dragon heritage awakening.

Paladin of Bahamut

I stand corrected, though seems it's the 4th edition of DnD which introduced Bahamut as more commonly worshipped by human LG paladins.

I wouldn't know. I've never played it nor read a single book other than the PHB for the abomination that came out after 3.5, despite your implications.
However, I have been aware of Bahamut as a deity that supported paladins of ANY race since 2nd edition ADnD.


THE WEAKER YOUR BUILD THE BETTAR YOUR ARPEE


Really? Like, for real?? Please, please, please tell me this is sarcastic.

Because if not, I'd like to point out that the perceived "strength" and/or "weakness" of any build has absolutely nothing to do with a players role-playing capabilities.
He's being totally sarcastic (hence the ALL CAPS ;)) and mocking one of the sillier misconceptions common to NWN

Though I'd dare to claim that even this one, like so many other myths and misconceptions, stems from a seed of truth. Strengths and weaknesses are covered by roleplaying capabilities and an exceptional roleplayer creates intriguing stories, as much for the enjoyment of others as for his own, by cleverly thought out strengths and weaknesses - and those, imo, can and often should be reflected in the build as well.

This, of course, isn't to say that weaker build is automatically a better player, but I dare to claim that a trend exists between certain kind of building and story-telling capability.


And by the exact same token, a player who wants to create a stronger build is not automatically a bad player. What more fitting tragedy for a setting like Ravenloft than the fall of someone more powerful than all his/her compatriots. AND, if that's what I had planned from the get-go, and am able to roleplay the rise and fall of that character, am I to be chastised for being a "bad RP'er" just because I chose to build the character well statistically?


Back on topic, I understand that this is not Forgotten Realms, and those particular orders do not exist here en masse. But if a player went through an application process and could prove that there were great RP possibilities for that type of character, and it were doable dev-wise, I don't think that player should just get an automatic "No, we don't do that. Too bad, so sad."

tzaeru

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #47 on: May 19, 2010, 10:57:01 PM »
I'm sorry, but I cannot agree that ALL paladins and ALL deityies can be compared using the same set of criteria. PCs are unusual, beyond the norm, and as such cannot be measured by the same stick that NPCs are. And, being LG as a deity does not automatically mean that deity is a strict and unforgiving father figure. Alignment is a means for narrowing down moral and ethical philosophies, not pigeon-holing somebody into a certain set of behaviors.

PC is pretty much beyond the norm already when he starts at level 2 with a player class, rather than as a level 1 commoner. Otherwise he should be in respect of not only the rules, but also the culture and atmosphere of chosen setting. That aside, I can't find actual information of what classes a paladin of Bahamut could multiclass to. ..Even though a pointless argument if Devs already decided no, gathering bits and pieces of FR lore is always fun anyway.  :lol:

In any case I am prettttttty certain following Bahamut doesn't allow multiclassing to RDD. Possibly to Silver DD, then. You probably anyhow know more of Bahamut than I do, since I hadn't even heard of the deity before mentioned.

AND, if that's what I had planned from the get-go, and am able to roleplay the rise and fall of that character, am I to be chastised for being a "bad RP'er" just because I chose to build the character well statistically?

No, nor did I claim so.

Minstrel

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #48 on: May 20, 2010, 06:00:02 AM »
I have a half-orc wizard with 12 Charisma!

He's a better melee fighter than most Pure Fighters.

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Re: Multiclass Restrictions
« Reply #49 on: May 20, 2010, 10:41:15 AM »
Back on topic, though.

We have the rules for paladins and monks in place in part because of the 3.5 d20 SRD:

Quote
Like a member of any other class, a monk may be a multiclass character, but multiclass monks face a special restriction. A monk who gains a new class or (if already multiclass) raises another class by a level may never again raise her monk level, though she retains all her monk abilities.

Quote
Like a member of any other class, a paladin may be a multiclass character, but multiclass paladins face a special restriction. A paladin who gains a level in any class other than paladin may never again raise her paladin level, though she retains all her paladin abilities.

Since we have no way of implementing this mechanically, we just don't allow multiclassing for monks or paladins. As for "special" exceptions like in Forgotten Realms, this isn't the Forgotten Realms, and those organizations/religions don't exist here.

This pretty much summarizes why the rule was implemented. If following by the books is what the server intends, is it out of the question to allow players to apply for a multiclassed paladin through the council, while following: [first/both] Once a character multiclasses, they cannot progress in paladin/monk any more; and choices for the class be limited to suitable options based on the order/diety the character patronizes?

This would be closer to the 3.5, as well as having the FR characters follow their own rulings unoffically.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2010, 10:49:17 AM by Rhymenoceros »