Removal of Alchemist's Fire - Faulty logic?

[Major Tom]

Well it sounds like increasing the availability of alchemical reagents would be immensely helpful.  The supply of varnishes would go up and the prices would probably go down.

I find that highly doubtful, as even now items that can be picked up rather easily with two people rummaging through a crypt get sold at inflated prices by PCs. Frequency unfortunately doesn't equal a decrease in cost when plenty of the players who make a habit out of selling things tend to be money-grubbers. But that's just my view of things.

[EO]

As Soren mentionned in the other topic, if you see creatures that you feel could carry regents, post them.

[Emomina]

I find that highly doubtful, as even now items that can be picked up rather easily with two people rummaging through a crypt get sold at inflated prices by PCs. Frequency unfortunately doesn't equal a decrease in cost when plenty of the players who make a habit out of selling things tend to be money-grubbers. But that's just my view of things.

Hm...  send me a pm or tell anytime. I think I could explain, where you would think differently.

[Vespertilio]

I find that highly doubtful, as even now items that can be picked up rather easily with two people rummaging through a crypt get sold at inflated prices by PCs. Frequency unfortunately doesn't equal a decrease in cost when plenty of the players who make a habit out of selling things tend to be money-grubbers. But that's just my view of things.

As an alternative I've been experimenting with offering the option of bartering over coin now for a while with two different pcs but, fact is most people prefer coin for herbs (or any commodity), not potions or other items they might use.  In fact, a lot of people aren't even interested in bartering for a lower price or a better deal, they'd rather just have you tell them it's X amount and pay that or decline to.  I still try to barter, just because I happen to find it fun rp but there are a lot of pcs who simply aren't interested and a rare few who become actually bothered by the whole barter concept.  It's another option though and with plenty of flat pricing merchant pcs, I think one worth sticking with to add variety.

More components available would still lower most prices in my opinion, because right now, demand for alchemical components is far higher than the supply, as is the pc demand for varnishes.

[respawnaholic]

No, they are not. They are about 100 gold each. I just logged off. Further, I just found out that lesser shocking varnish at least is useless against undead.

*sigh*

It's a Catch-22 again. I can't make the several hundred gold I need to buy the powerful varnishes that would let me stay alive except by exploring dangerous dungeons. I can't explore dangerous dungeons without either Alchemist fire or varnishes.

I would gladly have been using varnishes all along, since they can be applied to missle weapons and Alc fire can't. But, and here is the kicker, and lest there be any mistake I will capitalize this - I COULD NOT AFFORD IT. Not even the lesser varnishes. I have been trying to buy them. From the Vardo, since I didn't know any Alchemists personally. The cheapest the Vardo offered were 100 gold each.

Werner, like I said, was asking 250 gold. He may make some cheaper ones, I dunno. When I talked to him, that was the price.

My people are LEVEL 5. At any given moment they are carrying less than 500 gold. From that I have a choice. I can buy healing potions or I can buy ammunition, or I can buy alchemist fire...(oops). In any case 1000 - 2500 gold stacks of varnish are not in the cards, and are not likely to be in the cards in the foreseeable future, given my slow rate of leveling. And I am NOT going to take any of my characters into anything like a dangerous area without alchemist fire and a stack of strong healing potions. I guess it will be kill deer, skin deer, cook meat, sell skins and meat, rinse and repeat indefinitely until I make a level or two and my ranger gets his companion, or my sorcerer gets fireballs.

*sigh*

Jusst do what everyone else does on a low magic server.....make a spellcaster

[Major Tom]

Which is terrible advice considering that the idea of the setting is that spellcasters would be subjected to persecution and witch hunts. If someone complains they're having a hard time getting anything done with their current character, you don't suggest that they make it even harder for themselves.

[Springer]

Noone hunts them. At least I havent seen even once. Heard only warnings about it.

[Major Tom]

Well, in that regard it's not so much a fault in the system and such at that point, but in the roleplay, but that's another topic.

[respawnaholic]

Noone hunts them. At least I havent seen even once. Heard only warnings about it.

No one hunts them because the only people with a decent chance aginst them are other spellcasters.

[DM Tarokka]

Barovia is not Tepest, guys.

[herkles]

At the same time, people in barovia do not tolerate casters. I rather have casters being hated and hunted then tolerated.

[Emomina]

Which is terrible advice considering that the idea of the setting is that spellcasters would be subjected to persecution and witch hunts. If someone complains they're having a hard time getting anything done with their current character, you don't suggest that they make it even harder for themselves.

Noone hunts them. At least I havent seen even once. Heard only warnings about it.

Well, in that regard it's not so much a fault in the system and such at that point, but in the roleplay, but that's another topic.

No one hunts them because the only people with a decent chance aginst them are other spellcasters.

Barovia is not Tepest, guys.

At the same time, people in barovia do not tolerate casters. I rather have casters being hated and hunted then tolerated.

Thread is getting off track.  Its an interesting topic, something that any of you can start a thread about if you want.
The answer to this topic lies on pages 23-24 of Doomsday Gazeteer I, if someone wants to have a discussion relating to magic in Barovia, then so be it, but not in this thread.

[Major Tom]

I had already read the Gazeteer, yeah, hence my remark about casters being pretty much hunted (seeing as the Gazeteer even outright says that even bards and clerics are liable to be lynchmobbed while guards shrug and do nothing, because any form of casting is a 'tool of evil'). But yes, the topic is getting a bit derailed by this..

[Enarchen]

You are correct in one respect. My sorcerer can level at will. But I don't really enjoy playing the sorcerer because in order to play him effectively I have to use slash and burn tactics. Yes, I can use the sorcerer to solo effectively. Yes, I can take my sorcerer and/or his familiar into areas that would eat my ranger alive. Yes, my sorcerer can cast magic weapon, as well as mage armor, protection against evil, etc. and walk with impunity in places where a non-magic user would get reamed.

But that's not the point. I wanted to play my ranger and my rogue.

Again, as I said at the beginning of this thread but apparently nobody paid the slightest bit of attention to...

I DON'T SOLO BY CHOICE.

I DON'T SOLO BECAUSE I PREFER TO PLAY ALONE.

I DON'T SOLO BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE TO ROLEPLAY.

Everyone who reads my posts seems to take what they prefer to read from it and ignore the rest. I roleplay every time I log on. Soren even made some kind of remark about me preferring to interact with merchants instead of PCs. That really stung. It was unfair and hurtful. I interact with PCs all the time.

Ask Reba about the evening we spent together in the forge? Ask the herbalists that my Ranger has been keeping supplied with plants?

I Solo A Lot Because Of Real Life Responsibilities That Require Me To Log In And Out At Unpredictable Intervals.

Nor do I solo to the exclusion of all else. I group sometimes. But only when I know that I can escape from an area on my own if I need to log out without warning if my Alzheimer afflicted father or my crippled mother suddenly cry out for assistance.

Now, having said that, it is plain that the purpose of this server is to make things as interesting as possible for the established player base. This is quite understandable. Everything I have seen since joining, from adding stronger wolves to the newbie areas, to cutting down on the number and frequency of mink spawns, to deleting the low level items from merchants that would make survival less difficult and stressful for newbies, has appeared to be aimed at benefiting the higher level players. Completely understandable.

And if a new player wants to join, they will be selectively weeded out by making sure that they are willing to comply with the existing server culture. Simple and straightforward enough. You have every right to require this, it is your server. But I am not able to do this. Please delete my characters.

It was an enjoyable experience while it lasted.

[EO]

Now, having said that, it is plain that the purpose of this server is to make things as interesting as possible for the established player base. This is quite understandable. Everything I have seen since joining, from adding stronger wolves to the newbie areas, to cutting down on the number and frequency of mink spawns, to deleting the low level items from merchants that would make survival less difficult and stressful for newbies, has appeared to be aimed at benefiting the higher level players. Completely understandable.

I don't remember us doing anything of the sort. Spawns increase and decrease in strenght based on the frequency they are hunted and the season of the year.

Anyway, it's not a server for everyone and it looks like it wasn't the right server for you. I hope you'll find a server more to your liking.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Enarchen, please calm down.

First of all, I didn't say you preferred interacting with merchant NPCs instead of PCs, I just said if someone did. I'm sorry you got so hurt by it, though I'm admittedly having difficulties to fathom why.

Secondly, at one time you say the problem is that you don't wanna be told how to play, yet at another time, the problem seems to be that you have no alternative. People are bound to be confused, but allow me to respond to both concerns then:

- If your worry is that you are being told to play in a certain way, we do strive to respect that - but we on the other hand reserve our right to design the game we are making. As mentioned, we prefer affecting things through rewards and encouragements to minimize how enforcing the game feels - but how can you honestly feel stepped on in your rights as a free individual by how the gameplay is designed? I honestly can't help to feel that you seem to take it personal that the game feels too hard, but such a sentiment I couldn't accept. Try turning it around - aren't you just telling us to design the game in a certain way? And where's our personal rights in that?

- On the other hand, if your worry is that it doesn't suit the terms under which you can play - as your later posts mainly suggest - that's of course regrettable. Unfortunately, there's no meaningful way to cater for that without limits, unless we went for a game more or less void of consequences. I'm genuinely sorry to hear of your situation, but you are not right in saying that whatever we do is to benefit the higher levels or the established players, and if you have some dignity, you wouldn't need to make such cheap remarks either. You're distressed by people not paying attention to your words, and still it has been made clear numerous times what's the motivation for this change: to focus on grouping for survival and prospering. That such a focus cannot align with the demands you have for the game is unfortunate, but then you seemingly just need another game, perhaps one that isn't multiplayer. No hard feelings over that.

I still have to say though that it does feel like an overreaction. We are working on adding in more alchemy ingredients to make the varnishes more readily available.

[Kendric98]

I cant believe i actually read this entire thread all the way through I rarely do so but it was full of so much win i had to. It basically was sugested that without the fire its impossible to level in a soloing type of play but its not the case. What you do is in the beginning you start with creatures that don't require magic weapons and save your pennies. Next using the example provided of the ML crypt you purchase a weapon that is considered +1 vs undead for under or right around 1000 gold. After reaching say level 9 you buy another weapon made of silver usually and start hunting were rats in town and in the sewers etc. Soloing can be done but its super hard, and you will always be tight for cash. For some classes like the thief it might even be impossible. Here is what you do, remove all glow jars from the game sense they suck anyways and don't last, (a torch or lantern lasts forever) then in there place put the flame. 

[Minstrel]

Glow jars don't suck!

I happen to find them stylish.

Besides, they make for loot in low-level areas rather than just arbitrary piles of coin or gems, and in the rare event you actually lack a light source and need one (Which rules out every single full caster or demicaster (except Ranger), dwarf, half-orc, elf, and gnome, and anyone with a cheap glittering amulet) then it allows you to both see and have a shield at the same time.

Glow Jars ftw!

[bidocks]

I too read this whole thread.  I have some comments.

Firstly, Soren:  Excellent, well thought out remarks and arguments.

Enarchen:  As I recall, if you are the character I think you are, you were trying to recreate the wheel by using a square template.  Please don't be offended by this.  The game and the server have rules, they are hard, but they apply equally to all. 

My first days on this server were difficult for me.  I had no experience in RP other than Diablo.  Which is not roleplay at all I realize.  I wanted to quit, but a friend talked me into staying.  I am glad I did.  I've made far too many characters and made lots and lots of mistakes.  I didn't have varnishes until a few weeks ago, and I didn't even know about Alchemy fire until my main character was level 6.  I solo'd frequently, and died on occasion.  I also made friends, and grouped whenever possible.

My point is, this game is hard.  Hard for a good reason.  If it were easy, I believe the RP experience we have here (which is unique and un-f'ing-believable) would be diluted by characters running from spawn to spawn, looting everything and ignoring the conversations and interaction that make POTM what it is.

In other words, it was meant to be hard, learn the rules, and play by them.  If the rules are not suited to you, this is not the server for you.



Current Characters: 

Zander DeVane:  Neuri Hunter, Smith and Owner of the DeVane Company
Mason Moonshadow:  Mystran Priest
Bram Stormhammer:  Dwarven Tank and Reba's 'ubby
Bargg:  The Half-Orc who just wants to be everyone's friend
Many more that got retired due to my lack of Experience with RP!!!

[Kendric98]

I too read this whole thread.  I have some comments.

Firstly, Soren:  Excellent, well thought out remarks and arguments.

Enarchen:  As I recall, if you are the character I think you are, you were trying to recreate the wheel by using a square template.  Please don't be offended by this.  The game and the server have rules, they are hard, but they apply equally to all. 

My first days on this server were difficult for me.  I had no experience in RP other than Diablo.  Which is not roleplay at all I realize.  I wanted to quit, but a friend talked me into staying.  I am glad I did.  I've made far too many characters and made lots and lots of mistakes.  I didn't have varnishes until a few weeks ago, and I didn't even know about Alchemy fire until my main character was level 6.  I solo'd frequently, and died on occasion.  I also made friends, and grouped whenever possible.

My point is, this game is hard.  Hard for a good reason.  If it were easy, I believe the RP experience we have here (which is unique and un-f'ing-believable) would be diluted by characters running from spawn to spawn, looting everything and ignoring the conversations and interaction that make POTM what it is.

In other words, it was meant to be hard, learn the rules, and play by them.  If the rules are not suited to you, this is not the server for you.



Current Characters: 

Zander DeVane:  Neuri Hunter, Smith and Owner of the DeVane Company
Mason Moonshadow:  Mystran Priest
Bram Stormhammer:  Dwarven Tank and Reba's 'ubby
Bargg:  The Half-Orc who just wants to be everyone's friend
Many more that got retired due to my lack of Experience with RP!!!

So hard of a game that I tried other NWN servers and found them laughably easy. - Ruined forever 5/4/10 -

[bidocks]

Agreed, I looked at others, for various reasons and they were judged and tested and found to be..... less, than satisfactory.

[egrayfox]

I would put my comments about this but i know that certain people that are runing the game would just hunt down my pc more and try to off him.  Plus I have been discouraged from even roleplaying events that have happened.  Character has not abilitites to do hardly any crafting, WIS is tied to too many of the crafting abilitites.  Was even told had to change my characters clothing since it was not liked and I got here searching for anything on a rule why he had to do so.

Seems unless a high level pc brings you somewhere along on an adventure you just cant adventure and earn any xp since people kill you going into the crypts almost never get rp xp when i do stuff and even discourged from rp by many people including those in authority.

Really considering calling it quits since it does not seem there is any reason to be here on this server or does anyone here want any new players.

[Exordium]

Seems unless a high level pc brings you somewhere along on an adventure you just cant adventure and earn any xp since people kill you going into the crypts almost never get rp xp when i do stuff and even discourged from rp by many people including those in authority.

Really considering calling it quits since it does not seem there is any reason to be here on this server or does anyone here want any new players.

Despite this being certainly the wrong forum section and thread to discuss these kind of issues, please do contact a head DM if you feel a DM, CC member, or developer has taken actions that have been discouraging towards your efforts in roleplaying; The Community Council, DM, and Developer teams certainly do not hold the view that new players were not wished for.

I'm locking this in any case, as the original discussion has long ran it's course and pretty much all imaginable questions and answers have been provided within the pages of this thread.