Vampire Spawn Gaseous Form

[Antonus Taran]

I'm not going to really talk about the abilities given to it, but I'm going to throw the suggestion out that it should be 1 use/day. It's an atmospheric ability, but it's sort of like having "Shadowdancer form+lots of HP." At the moment it seems a bit too much, nothing against the MPCs, but it is spammed like crazy since it is such an effective 'appear-dissapear' ability. You need someone with an obscene spot build to get through it.

Since the MPC template we offer is just a Vampire Spawn and not a true Vampire, I would suggest that perhaps, because the Spawn isn't entirely in control of their abilities yet, that Gaseous Form be more of an emergency escape - this would give Bat Form a bit more usage as well. So, I'm proposing a change to 1 use/Day.

Thoughts?

[Kaspar]

I think it's a pretty sound idea, but I don't play a vampire. I wouldn't know how much it's going to affect my own game play so to speak, so I'm curious as to what the players that have VS think.

[Telkar]

Sounds okay, however, I'd rather see it usable like 2/day, which enables vampire spawns to join the fray seemingly out of nowhere 'and' be able to disappear once a fight is lost.

[Antonus Taran]

Sounds okay, however, I'd rather see it usable like 2/day, which enables vampire spawns to join the fray seemingly out of nowhere 'and' be able to disappear once a fight is lost.

That ability is already granted, actually. Vampire Spawns revert to gaseous form upon death automatically. The "Death" form of mist cannot be damaged except by sunlight, as far as I know. A very effective escape method as well.

[herkles]

Are you sure it is being spammed or is it like so many other abilities possible of being spammed? Also does the gaseous form vampires have limit your ability to play the game and the horror of the setting? I have the feeling this was made so it would be easier to close the stories of MPCs.

[Iconoclast]

I don't think the suggestion made would make it easier to closure an mpc. Gaseous form, I believe, automatically occurs in the instance of a pvp death. The suggested revision wouldn't change that.


 It is also best to avoid public guessing at the intentions behind a suggestion.

[Antonus Taran]

Are you sure it is being spammed or is it like so many other abilities possible of being spammed? Also does the gaseous form vampires have limit your ability to play the game and the horror of the setting? I have the feeling this was made so it would be easier to close the stories of MPCs.

Quite the opposite, actually! MPCs are an integral part of the setting. I've been warned by vampire PCs that their coffin is destroyed, and I've been very careful not to kill them (Alexandru Drachenfels for example). I have no interest in closuring MPCs, and I would ask not to sideline the discussion with accusations like that.

But as a Vamp player, what are your thoughts on this? As far as the setting goes, it does feel a bit odd when a vampire goes in and out of Gaseous form to cast spells/attack with impunity.

[herkles]

Perhaps my tone wasn't best in my previous post. I do not wish to sideline the debate about closure of MPCs, it just feels that when posts like this come about it is due to reasons because of that. I am glad that is not the case.

regardless from all that I have seen the Gaseous form is used as a way to enhance roleplay. There are other abilities that can be spammed as well, knockdown, disarm, and others. Almost any ability is capable of being spammed. I believe an Ability that is used for roleplay mostly should not have that many limits.  I am not sure what the limits on Gaseous form are, but being limited by how many times they are used per day when they can be used to add to the rp of others sounds a bit unfair to me, but this is just my opinion.

[Telkar]

regardless from all that I have seen the Gaseous form is used as a way to enhance roleplay. There are other abilities that can be spammed as well, knockdown, disarm, and others. Almost any ability is capable of being spammed. I believe an Ability that is used for roleplay mostly should not have that many limits.  I am not sure what the limits on Gaseous form are, but being limited by how many times they are used per day when they can be used to add to the rp of others sounds a bit unfair to me, but this is just my opinion.

I'm a bit unsure how limiting the gaseous form would detract from RP. It would still be there to be used at appropriate times, when the vampire deems it best to take the effort to do it. I think we're talking about 1 misting per every 15 minutes(restored when resting), so vampires would be more inclined to RP other things which don't involve misting a lot(RP that I've never witnessed).

Sounds okay, however, I'd rather see it usable like 2/day, which enables vampire spawns to join the fray seemingly out of nowhere 'and' be able to disappear once a fight is lost.

That ability is already granted, actually. Vampire Spawns revert to gaseous form upon death automatically. The "Death" form of mist cannot be damaged except by sunlight, as far as I know. A very effective escape method as well.

But, to my knowledge, when they mist at death, their gold and gear are lost with them, and so I can understand if they want to mist before that. 2/day would be like twice every 8 minutes...or 5 for lower level ones. Seems suitable to me.

[marlewebber]

This is a wake up call to how these abilities are utilized- honestly, it is not a limitation of even the Vampire Spawn to have limited uses of this power - it is up to the discretion of the player not to overuse the ability in a dramatic sense.

Some PC vampires don't have a way to escape or create fear or mystery without using their Mist Form a lot.  So let them, and they've read this thread, so they'll know not to use it so much for the scenes they try to cultivate.

[Kendric98]

Mpc Vamps have enough problems with perm, besides tinkering with it would likely cause the mist bugs to crop up all over again and when i played my vampire that was really annoying. However i dont like spaming the power, you should mist in rp mist out not use it to attack from hiding.

[pink_helium_balloon]

disagree 100 %. this thread disgusts me.

[Lockleed]

In the past, I've played a powerful PC and fought two vamp spawns at once, before.  Alexandru Drachenfels and Vincent Stravokov, versus me playing Corvin Aegerfeld in the outskirts.  Both MPCs used their mist form repeatedly to escape me.  Each time they dropped into sight and I had the oppurtunity, I struck at them with various divine damage based spells, or went into melee and tore them apart.  In between, they would come at me from behind, or bombard me with death and negative energy spells.  Noone won (remember that I said that... noone "won.") the confrontation, and I'm pretty sure everybody on both sides walked away thinking they'd had a pretty epic fight, and were all the happier for it.  I don't begrudge either of the MPCs their use of mist form, it made the encounter far more interesting, in fact.

Out of curiousity, I also checked the Vampire Spawn listing according the monstrous manual, to see if there was any real difference between it and a true vampire in terms of mist form.  As a standard action, a vampire spawn can assume gaseous form at will, as the spell cast by a 6th level sorcerer, but it can remain gaseous infeinitely.

Its also not much of a difference from HiPSing, although it takes an action to use the widget, and we've had plenty of characters who used HiPS pretty often for PvP.

Far as I can tell, this is yet another of those ideal changes that is themed for winning.  The MPC ability is lessened so that the encounter can be "won."  It is not so much about balance, nor creative RP, simply winning a scenario.  I'd suggest instead you focus on an IC means to deal with gaseous form... such as true seeing and a high spot / listen.

[Antonus Taran]

This is a wake up call to how these abilities are utilized- honestly, it is not a limitation of even the Vampire Spawn to have limited uses of this power - it is up to the discretion of the player not to overuse the ability in a dramatic sense.

Some PC vampires don't have a way to escape or create fear or mystery without using their Mist Form a lot.  So let them, and they've read this thread, so they'll know not to use it so much for the scenes they try to cultivate.

This.

Far as I can tell, this is yet another of those ideal changes that is themed for winning.  The MPC ability is lessened so that the encounter can be "won."  It is not so much about balance, nor creative RP, simply winning a scenario.  I'd suggest instead you focus on an IC means to deal with gaseous form... such as true seeing and a high spot / listen.

;

It is also best to avoid public guessing at the intentions behind a suggestion.

disagree 100 %. this thread disgusts me.

Could you elaborate a bit? Disgust seems a bit of a powerful word for an ability discussion; hopefully you didn't take anything here as a personal attack, I'd be happy to clarify if that is indeed the case, it was most certainly not my intent.

The real meat of the matter essentially lies in what Marle said. Use/day would limit the temptation to overuse the ability, it is the responsibility of the Vampire Spawn to use gaseous form to best accent the scene at hand. Vampire Spawns aren't going anywhere upon death, due to their mist form upon death, so closure isn't a part of the discussion either, nor is "winning," honestly, I have no idea where that came from. In my personal opinion, the overuse of mist form cheapens the ability, and I would personally like to see vampires using their bat and wolf forms a bit more often, but again, that's simply my taste. In most vampire literature I have read and films relating to such, the ability to transform into mist is used with subtlety, sort of a magical, horrifying ability. For example, in the 1992 version Dracula, the Vampire uses this ability probably 3 times in the film, but it is effective. Had he made his entrance in mist form every time, it would've made the monster a bit less interesting, I think.

[Lockleed]

Ah, I see.  Quotes.  However, this :

Far as I can tell, this is yet another of those ideal changes that is themed for winning.  The MPC ability is lessened so that the encounter can be "won."  It is not so much about balance, nor creative RP, simply winning a scenario.  I'd suggest instead you focus on an IC means to deal with gaseous form... such as true seeing and a high spot / listen.

Remains my opinion, given your context.  It is an MPC vampire spawn ability that is not practiced by the NPCs (save rare occasions of DM possession,) only the MPCs make frequent use of it; and the only time I can imagine it being "spammed" is during an intensive PvP scenario.  Quite frankly there is not always oppurtunity to RP the ability out properly in those situations.  I did not expect Alexandru nor Vincent to provide me with detailed emotes of their transformation into mist while I was pelting them with Destructions, Searing Lights, and Hammers of the Gods.  And if they'd had limited uses, Corvin would likely have defeated them both pretty swiftly, and that wouldn't of made it anywhere near as much fun for any of us.  I'd of "won."  There would be no epic battle to speak of afterward.  And I liked that battle, its one of my favorites as Corvin!  (Though his death scene tops them all.  Buried under an army of elite vampires is heck of a way to go, I highly recommend it.)

I'm just saying deal with it as it is.  Its not breaking the existant rules provided by basic D&D for the monster, and it can be dealt with from inside the system, if you approach it intelligently.

[DM Nocturne]

Use/day would limit the temptation to overuse the ability,

Do you have an actual example of a situation where you saw that it was becoming an overuse of the ability?

it is the responsibility of the Vampire Spawn to use gaseous form to best accent the scene at hand.

Of which already happens. The application process judges a person on their understanding of a horror scene, as far as I am aware.

In most vampire literature I have read and films relating to such, the ability to transform into mist is used with subtlety, sort of a magical, horrifying ability.

Of which we already know. The application process asks for an understanding of such literature and template.

Regardless, if there is a particular MPC player you feel doesn't fit your tastes, send a friendly tell asking them for you to opt out of the scene.

[Pepchko]

In the past, I've played a powerful PC and fought two vamp spawns at once, before.  Alexandru Drachenfels and Vincent Stravokov, versus me playing Corvin Aegerfeld in the outskirts.  Both MPCs used their mist form repeatedly to escape me.  Each time they dropped into sight and I had the oppurtunity, I struck at them with various divine damage based spells, or went into melee and tore them apart.  In between, they would come at me from behind, or bombard me with death and negative energy spells.  Noone won (remember that I said that... noone "won.") the confrontation, and I'm pretty sure everybody on both sides walked away thinking they'd had a pretty epic fight, and were all the happier for it.  I don't begrudge either of the MPCs their use of mist form, it made the encounter far more interesting, in fact.

Out of curiousity, I also checked the Vampire Spawn listing according the monstrous manual, to see if there was any real difference between it and a true vampire in terms of mist form.  As a standard action, a vampire spawn can assume gaseous form at will, as the spell cast by a 6th level sorcerer, but it can remain gaseous infeinitely.

Its also not much of a difference from HiPSing, although it takes an action to use the widget, and we've had plenty of characters who used HiPS pretty often for PvP.

Far as I can tell, this is yet another of those ideal changes that is themed for winning.  The MPC ability is lessened so that the encounter can be "won."  It is not so much about balance, nor creative RP, simply winning a scenario.  I'd suggest instead you focus on an IC means to deal with gaseous form... such as true seeing and a high spot / listen.

this hits the nail in the coffin and covers everything i was going to address.

i agree with Lockleed 100%  


its not abuse as its part of our Powers, the Template has already been balanced out, its also part of the reason we have an ECL adjustment of 5 levels.

this thread does sound like a it was spawned from a Win mentality, as your asking basicly to go against whats Written in the D&D rules, to weaken the template so its more manageable for you in a PVP situation.

our focus as MPC's is always the Enjoyment of the encounter for everyone involved. Corvins experience is a perfect example at what we try to achieve in an encounter. i make it a point to never "kill" anyone (unless they dont let up on me and i kill in self defense, which is very rare).

your focus should also be the enjoyment of the encounter. just becuase we are MPC's, does not mean we are void of consideration. we make it a point to be considerate to everyone we add to our encounters, would be nice to get the same treatment.

[Emomina]

I am of the opinion that limiting the ability to uses per day is an idea that has some merit. Limitations have a way of making the use of an ability be more well thought out.

[EO]

If you see a vampire spawn use/misuse it like HiPS by spamming it, you can screenshot it and report it to the DM team and we'll address it with the individual MPC.

[Pepchko]

FYI: for those of you who dont know, a vampire spawn MPC cannot attack or cast while in mist form.

[HellsPanda]

limiting maybe, but not too as few as 1 or 2, but then might aswell do this too HiPS, I doubt Gasseous form abuse is as big an issue as you make it seem Taran. Neitherdo I think HiPs is such a big issue. Rarely seen either power abused

But if a limit is decided to be put in, make it so many that it can be used for tactical advantage in an extended battle. And not just the appear/disapear trick.

[Knas]

If you see a vampire spawn use/misuse it like HiPS by spamming it, you can screenshot it and report it to the DM team and we'll address it with the individual MPC.

EO Is right, I don't see any reason to go through the trouble of fixing a game mech like that. MPC's are expected to uphold high standards and not use their templates for power play. So if you do notice someone doing it, screenshot it and send it to us and we will review whether the MPC should retain his template.

[Kaspar]

I am of the opinion that limiting the ability to uses per day is an idea that has some merit. Limitations have a way of making the use of an ability be more well thought out.

^ This,

I understand EO and Knas basically implied this Ability is fine as is, but I wanted to ask a question out of curiosity. How would the players of vampires think that making Mist form a 1use/day ability make them more liable to be destroyed permanently?

[Antonus Taran]

If you see a vampire spawn use/misuse it like HiPS by spamming it, you can screenshot it and report it to the DM team and we'll address it with the individual MPC.

EO Is right, I don't see any reason to go through the trouble of fixing a game mech like that. MPC's are expected to uphold high standards and not use their templates for power play. So if you do notice someone doing it, screenshot it and send it to us and we will review whether the MPC should retain his template.

You're right, this is the best way of going about it, though I'd prefer to send constructive critique to the MPC first. I have seen the ability used many, many times during encounters, if that was not the case, I would have not bothered making this thread suggesting it be limited. Using it as an entrance, escape, and such, that's fine, but it gets a bit excessive when an encounter involved 4-5 mists - it can be difficult to roleplay a scene when one exits mist form and drops a one-liner+spell, then vanishes again----This may just be a result of my PC's reputation for violence against monsters, but this is frankly the most common of Vampire scenes that I've been in and witnessed. The reason I don't bring up examples is because I am loathe to call out names, this can often be misinterpreted as a personal attack, rather than constructive criticism.  And judging by some of the replies, misinterpretation is one of the leading emotions here already.

The way mist form has been used in my personal experience, an encounter becomes less of a 'Stay back, creature! [Holds out a holy symbol]' to (holds finger on the hammer of the gods button to return fire before the monster hits you with IGMS/Finger of death/owch spell and mists again)

Peasant also brings up a good point, a point that has been made a few times in the thread, and something that has gone unanswered thus far?

[LawfulJoe]

I see no reason to limit it with an ECL of 5... ouch. The other thing I see that is insane from an RP pov, you faced 2 powerful Vamp spawns alone and didn't run for your life? Where's the horror in that? But then, if everyone had fun and the book states that the spawns can enter it at will and remian indefinately
As a standard action, a vampire spawn can assume gaseous form at will, as the spell cast by a 6th level sorcerer, but it can remain gaseous infeinitely.
why are we discussing this?