Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.

[Emomina]

  Its funny cause its true.

[mayvind]

meh you guys have a point ! 

[marlewebber]

Class balance is wonky because that's D&D.

Everyone has differing strengths and weaknesses, and heck, you can even multiclass.

This game is not WOW or EQ and I think analysis of class balance belongs with those games, not here.

...though its a very good thing when changes are made such as those that prevent stacking damage shields.

[shadymerchant]

When it requires time, hard work, and experience to be at the top of the food chain, it is balanced. This module is, in fact, very balanced. The top of the food chain is, arguably, Sedrik. He is a barb/fighter. Would he win, unbuffed, against a fully buffed level 20 mage? No. Would he try? No. That's where experience comes into play.

[Aldarris]

There is no top of the food chain when it comes to builds or classes or DnD.

Time and hard work?  The leveling part, sure...but it takes someone who knows the ropes a matter of 10 minutes of coming up with a decent "Build" idea...HOPEFULLY being IG a roleplay/journey for that character to follow that isn't just "level up" "Level up" "apply for PrC" "Level up".  I wouldn't call that going to work 40 hours a week.  Well in my case it's 20, but bartending is a tough job  

As you said, it's who's prepared.  Sedrik prepared for the fight against Roland  (Who's not at all optimized for 1 vs. 1 combat) by borrowing a belt of inertial barrier from Daedros (If I saw correctly), and then it came down to the rolls where one averaged a 9, and the other a 15.  4 crits to 1.  On another day, it could have gone completely the other way.

When it comes to two well built classes, that's what the rolls are for, to add a degree of "I don't know what will happen".

So no, there's no top of the food chain in DnD, or on our server.  Each class has strengths and weaknesses vs. other classes.  Roland can prepare better for a mage than Sedrik or Daedros due to the classes I chose for him, but at the same time in one on one combat he loses a bit of strength.

And if rage was treated the way it should be treated in PnP or DnD 3.5 you'd see a lot less barbarian/fighters who use rage constantly.

I've never had a problem fighting a mage, but honestly Roland is the first and only fighter/rogue/weaponmaster that's stuck around.  Not everyone wants to come up with a "build" that can combat everything or one thing entirely.  A lot of people are here for improvised story driven roleplay. That doesn't mean they shouldn't have tools that would give them a fighting chance should the conflict occur.

Perhaps instead of bragging about who might be stronger, and why, focus on the imbalance of high magic casters vs. the low magic item server we have here.  Not just +3 weapons, or higher ACs, but items that would be original and magical that could be used to give those who play high level casters some degree of fear if they know that they're around.

[Bad_Bud]

This is the most balanced server I've played on because of the low magic setting.  The higher the magic, the less a character needs to have the ability to dish out damage or take hits.  The more magic you add, the more people just make AC builds, and fights degrade to people swinging around all day hitting nothing.  What a bore.  I like things the way they are.

[Aldarris]

It's not a low magic setting.  It's low magic item, high magic caster setting.

It was a low magic setting, until 50% of the server started playing caster classes and we have a great deal of that 50% casting level 7, 8 and 9 circle spells.

If it was low magic before, it's not now.

Wouldn't it be nice to have a ring that could dispel, or an axe that could silence, or arrows that could do both if they hit through that acid sheath (which is only there for if the mage gets hit.  No smart mage in their right mind is going to stand there and say..."Hit me with your big weapon" while encompassed in acid, unless they're in iron golem form).

[Bad_Bud]

It's a low magic setting.

[Emomina]

I'm just not seeing your side Aldarris. I think its great the way it is.

[Aldarris]

I'm torn.

If I tell Bad_bud no, then I'm right.

If- well, no.  It's not a low magic setting currently.

 

I'm not saying the server isn't great.  It's incredible.  If someone wants to devote their time to making an anit-mage build, go for it.  But this is the casters vs. melee thread, and obviously you haven't read any of my suggestions geared toward those who aren't obsessed with builds.

But oh well.

[LoLJohnFerro]

just like to point out that its kinda biased so lets not go with a im on his side and im on his side kinda deal.

And it can be looked on both ways, mages are poewrfull sure but the mages are widely know so if someone throws down an ungodly amount of fang that person can be made to dissaper quiiiite quickly. So dont say its umblanced beacuse anyone can be made to vanish in one simple transaction.

[Aldarris]

Assassination FTW.

[Bad_Bud]

You can't go in with the mindset of making things easier for the average Joe with the weaker, Jack of all trades character, because it will only make the focused 'builds' even stronger than they were before.  Also consider that most of the high level mage characters are not your average Joe.  You can tell who does and doesn't know how to play a mid-high level caster, and those who don't are never the ones we are talking about when we say "high level caster".

[nakedxXbeauty]

It's a low magic setting.

It's SUPPOSED to be a low magic setting.

[shadymerchant]

Item wise it is, and that is the only way to define "low magic" or "high magic." There will be casters with access to spells in each one. The idea that anyone can come in and dominate is also blatantly wrong. There are a great many nuances to NWN's system. The very idea that casters are top of the chain on this server is blatantly wrong, and the servers history showcases that well. The most dominating build in this servers history is the rogue/assassin, as demonstrated by Julia Colds, Marrok, Armand, Marek, Dragos, and countless others who have ruined any mage they set their sights on. The only truly dominant mages, in my entire five year run here, have belonged to Mayvind.

You mention wanting more items to combat them, like you are unaware that some already exist..

a belt that provides silence
a box that provides silence
a throwable mords bomb
weapons with stun properties
weapon enhancers, like varnishes


for balance sakes, we need more? Also, I'm not bragging in this thread. What I've stated is all true, and relevant to the idea of balance in the module. The most powerful build on the module currently isn't even a mage. It's a tanking fighter/barb. Your WM is up there. My WM is up there. Various SD/rogue builds are up there. Mages really aren't. Can you please provide some examples of melee vs mage incidents that showcase your side of the argument, because I honestly don't know where it even comes from. It's not the reality I've ever seen present.

[Aldarris]

Well, I can't for your arguements sake, because your strongest PC as you said doesn't fight mages.

I can say everyone else who has had an encounter with spell spamming high level spells would voice their opinion, but it seems this thread is only being looked at by so few people.  Most people haven't even bothered to look at it because it's title.

You're listing this items as if I need them, Shady.  I don't.  I'm fine.  The items that could be thrown into the mix are a little more useful to everyone than a box or a belt that casts silence, that any mage can withstand if they have...oh...spell resistance!  Clerics and Druids will simply shrug those off.  The field of silence is a spell cast, and therefore someone with spell resistance such as a cleric can simply resist it if someone gets too close.  I've tested it.

The mordenkanen's bomb is great...sure, we could use more things like that.

A weapon with stun properties I've seen, but it's useless really since the DC is so low.

You weren't bragging Shady, but again considering how DnD works it's rather biased to state your friend has the "most powerful build there is" on the server, considering there are a dozen people I can think of right away who could wipe the floor with him on any given day, and most use magic.  Some don't.

If Fax'to faced Roland, it'd be won within the rolls.  If Sedrik faced Fax'to again, the rolls.  If Vitor and Sedrik duked it out with two handed weapons, it boils down to who wins in rolls.

There's that magic of not knowing.  One person is never always on top when there are dice involved.  It's like my baseball coach always used to say that any team playing on the same skill level can beat any other team on any given day.

I didn't make Roland with the soul purpose of being the most powerful character on the server.  I made him with the intention of whatever conflict he engaged himself in, he'd have a good chance of winning.

No offense to Bad_Bud whatsoever in what I've said.

[kanedellesk]

Hi, everyone, long time no talk to. After reading extensive pages of this endless battle (hence the title) I think I can jump in with a conclusion or two.

This thread started as an attempt not to balance PvP, or CvC if you prefer, but to balance the issue of Characters vs Environment. That thread actually had merit, and if I were still a DM, I would have split the topic right after PvP came up. First, I'll address where this topic has lead to.

To quote Heretic, "You want the truth? You can't handle the truth." And here's the truth: You will never get class balance in this game. Ever. Not gonna happen. Why? Because . . . "THIS IS DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS!" *spartan kick* Classes weren't designed in D&D to be balanced. They were designed to have a specific role in the PARTY.  If you want to blame someone for wizards and sorcerers being so powerful, don't point your finger at Soren, Blue, or Arlette; point it at the dearly departed Gary Gygax.  While I'm at it, who's bright idea was it to make clerics the single strongest characters in the game? Those of us who remember 1st edition, and even 2nd edition, all remember the time we showed up late, and all the other classes had been taken. The DM told us, "You can play, but you gotta be the cleric." To which most of us replied a string of obscenities only fit to print on 4chan. Since I'm too lazy to actually research who all came up with 3rd edition, I'm just gonna blame Rex.

Anyway, I don't have a problem with magic being so powerful. Gandalf should be the one stopping the Balrog (quote by Rex), not Frodo or Legolas or even Aragorn. But when everyone wants to be Gandalf, then who's going to be the hobbits? Don't get me wrong, this server has some great wizards and sorcerers who earned their power (Bernard, Magiko, Nara'ia, and even Yves, etc.), and has had some great clerics who actually, you know Followed a Diety and Tenets (ex. Calor, Ana Cuza, the Zarusians, Tatyana's Lawgiver and Sam Wrath, to name a few). Those, and those like them, have flaws that can easily be manipulated. It's a common theme that I've seen so many times: people need to stop thinking WoW and start thinking D&D. Use your heads and come up with a plan. Marrok probably took out more mages than anyone, and he wasn't a super build. Marrok's player used his head, made plans, caught the mages at their weakest and took advantage. I would personally find it a much more fun server if characters were trying to out-think each other instead of players trying to out build each other. Try doing something besides clicking it because it's red, please. There are so many alternatives, try to think of some.

Here's the thing, though about all this. This is echoed in the thread about wanting horror back or something. Just like making the server be a Horror Server, not a server where you just happen to have a lot of undead, you have to let your character be scared. If it's a low magic server people are wanting, then it's up to the player base. Right now, it's not low magic because the player base doesn't want low magic. If they did, there would be a lot less mages and clerics, and a lot more fighter classes. To sum up, if you want it low magic, don't make so many wizards, sorcerers, clerics and druids; instead make more fighters, barbarians, rogues, rangers, and monks. The server ebbs and flows in the direction of the players.

Now that I've got that rant out of the way, I can comment on what the topic was originally supposed to be about. Yes, some items to level the playing field would be nice. Not everyone has a pocket wizard to call on when they decide to go a'dungeoning. And some people will actually refuse to travel with certain people. Thumbs up to the people who will actually be good aligned and refuse to go anywhere with a smart mouthed bully. It would be nice to have an alternative to the waiting around on a caster you would actually travel with. Now it's "Hey, let's go to the Village and try to find some nice things in the crypt." "You know anyone who can enchant my blade?" "No." "Oh, then I can't scratch the things. Guess we'll stand here in the outskirts scratching ourselves."
With some charged items, that wouldn't happen, and maybe, just maybe, people would start playing something besides casters because they could actually be of some use without having to rely on a buffer to run to Murnu's for a jug of milk.

[shadymerchant]

Well, I can't for your arguements sake, because your strongest PC as you said doesn't fight mages.

I can say everyone else who has had an encounter with spell spamming high level spells would voice their opinion, but it seems this thread is only being looked at by so few people.  Most people haven't even bothered to look at it because it's title.

You're listing this items as if I need them, Shady.  I don't.  I'm fine.  The items that could be thrown into the mix are a little more useful to everyone than a box or a belt that casts silence, that any mage can withstand if they have...oh...spell resistance!  Clerics and Druids will simply shrug those off.  The field of silence is a spell cast, and therefore someone with spell resistance such as a cleric can simply resist it if someone gets too close.  I've tested it.

The mordenkanen's bomb is great...sure, we could use more things like that.

A weapon with stun properties I've seen, but it's useless really since the DC is so low.

You weren't bragging Shady, but again considering how DnD works it's rather biased to state your friend has the "most powerful build there is" on the server, considering there are a dozen people I can think of right away who could wipe the floor with him on any given day, and most use magic.  Some don't.

If Fax'to faced Roland, it'd be won within the rolls.  If Sedrik faced Fax'to again, the rolls.  If Vitor and Sedrik duked it out with two handed weapons, it boils down to who wins in rolls.

There's that magic of not knowing.  One person is never always on top when there are dice involved.  It's like my baseball coach always used to say that any team playing on the same skill level can beat any other team on any given day.

I didn't make Roland with the soul purpose of being the most powerful character on the server.  I made him with the intention of whatever conflict he engaged himself in, he'd have a good chance of winning.

No offense to Bad_Bud whatsoever in what I've said.

I never said that. In fact, I said the opposite. I like fighting casters, whether it's with my caster or my WM. It all amounts to the same. Use the tools you have prepared to come out on top. The server provides a lot. Where it doesn't, it's wise to have alliances in place to cover for a weakness. I am not seeing any attempts to redress balance here. What I see is statements made to the effect of "to succeed, I have to work harder than i think is fair." The problem with looking at balance like that is that there will always be extreme ends of the spectrum that put more into it than those in the middle.

[LoLJohnFerro]

Soooo lets just drop it and call it a day?

[Aldarris]

And alas, what I say is entirely misconstrued for a reason I won't state.

The PC being Sedrik, the one you said does not go up against buffed level 20 mages.  Not Daedros, as you stated that's what you created him for mostly with your halberd crits.

The fact that you're not seeing any attempt to readdress is a biased opinion, and perhaps a blind one.  But that's my opinion, but it sucks when personal opinions are thrown into a discussion because everything gets pulled every which way and in the end everyone's backed up into their own corners with their own ideas.

It's a shame the thread has derailed in such a fashion, but I can safely say it was not by my doing.

If your comment on what you see is "To succeed, I need to work harder than I think is fair" (In which you are quoting others) was geared towards me, well then my friend you have no idea how hard I work.  If it was geared towards everyone else, it's assuming that you -think- you work harder than everyone else, which is safe to say probably not the case.

The items listed just don't provide any attempt at balancing...sure they're interesting, but they're low magic and semi-worthless.

[Pepchko]

play what you like.

play with who you like.

and ignore everyone else that rains on your parade.



i try not to care so much about these topics, and just do what is going to be fun for me and the players i interact with. the more you debate about something, the more you question it, the more number crunching and arguing all adds up to a big waste of time and stress, time you could be spending in game with your friends/associates.

[Minstrel]

. "THIS IS DUNGEONS AND DRAGONS!"

This post is pretty much great.

[Jotem]

I have seen manyer good point made over the last Twelve pages.

There is a lot to reflect on and i think all that can be said on ''The Endless Battle'' has been said for now.

I'll give the topic some cooling off time.

Maybe Item Request Thread could be the next place for banter

Thank you all for your input, and im sure this will be unlocked in due time for further discussion.