Author Topic: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.  (Read 28346 times)

Mrjunkie

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Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« on: February 07, 2010, 08:42:11 AM »
Over my time spent on the server i've seen these topics pop up a few times, they stretch on several pages and lead to no solid results in the end. I hope this will be a breath of fresh air...

As we all know, within Ravenloft, Casters have the upper hand due to the 'Low Magic' of the setting, IE no +3 Enchanted weapons.
It has always added to the rp, forcing Casters and Melee's into an uneasy truths as a party.

Hopefully, soon the new higher level area's will be introduced, it made me tickle with question...

Will higher magical quality items be added for these area's, if so..will there be a way to even out the odds between a Level 17 Barbarian and a Level 17 Wizard? And whats to stop lower levels from making a day trip to the higher level lands and returning to the lower level hub with +(silly numbers) equipment?

As it remains a 'Low Magic' Server, perhaps items should not be granted a permanent stat in either Class's favour, rather charges that could work depending on your level, example: level 12 cleric uses a item with GMW charge, he receives +3 GMW, a equal level melee would receive the same, and respectivly on level 16 they would both gain the same +4.

Such items could be introduced to vendors in the oncoming higher level hubs, perhaps even to a craft, Alchemy still has much promise...

Certain items have recently been introduced and removed, some to level he playing field between spotters and sneaks, now some have the chance to see the elite sneaks of the server...and on the flip side, new sneaks are doomed to be seen by anyone who can lay their hands on these new spot/listen items.

Yet others have been removed, lowering the chances of survival for the already limited Melee'ers/

These are just some idea's, i know it may premote solo'ing on melee's part, would it only really level the playing field? As Casters have had free run since the server exsists, perhaps its time to level it out and see that Melee's also have equal chances.

It could be introduced at the same time as the Higher Level area's, or slowly but surely as we now stand...

Let me know what you think ;)


Soren / Zarathustra217

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2010, 09:16:01 AM »
Our standards for items actually allows for pretty powerful stuff, but the reason it's so rarely (if ever seen) is largely because there's seldom enough challenge in areas to warrant it. Roughly put (and remember roughly), we compare challenge ratings of creatures to treasure worth in gp for zones, and use that as our standard. So, yes, with higher level areas, you'll see more powerful items... :)

Mrjunkie

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2010, 09:16:58 AM »
 :cloud9:

Budly

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2010, 09:59:22 AM »
Quote
Such items could be introduced to vendors in the oncoming higher level hubs, perhaps even to a craft, Alchemy still has much promise...

No please...we all know how that gonna end up. Right now people on low levels already get some rather good items.

Aldarris

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2010, 12:31:44 PM »
There's nothing wrong with creating a weapon that has a certain number of charges of GMW (Say 3) cast at level 18, and there's nothing wrong with an armor that casts magic vestment at the same level with 3 charges.

I think items like this would be great additions to the loot tables personally.  They're not all powerful, because the bonuses given by them are temporary and will eventually make the item disappear, so it's a toss up...and, anyone with UMD already has access to a level 17 GMW anyway...as well as high level clerics/mages/bards.

When we call ourselves a low magic server, it's really only a low magic -item- server.  Sadly, spellcasters are given access to their entire arsenal, while melee classes are stripped of the items they'd need to balance this fact.

Putting items in the loot tables that give temporary bonuses to balance this would be GREAT.
« Last Edit: February 07, 2010, 12:38:22 PM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Aran

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2010, 12:46:05 PM »
actually there is a very old ancient PnP article from Dragon magazine some 15 years back that explained the issues with "monty haul" IE too many items available.

and the charged expendable items were put up as the solution to exactly that.


this way people would quest for getting that rare item to manage a specific task, but when the task was done so was perhaps the item expended giving way to new quests.

:-)

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2010, 12:47:39 PM »
Actually that would be a great idea.

Bring back holy sword scrolls too!
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Aahz

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2010, 01:09:10 PM »
actually there is a very old ancient PnP article from Dragon magazine some 15 years back that explained the issues with "monty haul" IE too many items available.

and the charged expendable items were put up as the solution to exactly that.

From what remember, 15 years ago you were not nearly as dependent on gear to be generally effective. Ouy only really needed magic weapons to fight those monsters that were immune to normal weapons. If we ever got magical items more than that, it was a happy extra but that was all. At least that is the way it always was for the games I ever played in before 3rd edition.
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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2010, 01:14:26 PM »
Unnerf all the wizaard and cleric spell Too ! :fonzie:

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2010, 02:07:16 PM »
Unnerf all the wizaard and cleric spell Too ! :fonzie:

Interesting suggestion.   ;)
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Mrjunkie

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2010, 07:58:42 PM »
Quote
Such items could be introduced to vendors in the oncoming higher level hubs, perhaps even to a craft, Alchemy still has much promise...

No please...we all know how that gonna end up. Right now people on low levels already get some rather good items.

This was mainly due to influx of pricing Herbalism Reagents, they came at such a price and such an abundance, -everyone- could afford all crafted, whole sale goods on the markert...

Jadow_Valroth

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2010, 01:49:13 AM »
My main character being a melee character.. I have to say, going into a combat envrioment with a caster character almost always turns into me turning tail. The reason for this is because it usually tends to go something along the lines of..

I make my intentions known, that I plan to attack the character. Thus, giving the PC a heads up as to what direction the situation is heading.

As we turn hostile, and my weapon is drawn, the caster will almost -always- perform something along these lines.

Improved Invis,  Stoneskin, Mestil's acid sheath..

And so on, from that point, swinging a sword is only going to get me so far.

Stoneskin.. This spell grants the target creature damage reduction 10/+5. The spell absorbs 10 points of melee damage per caster level, to a maximum of 100, before collapsing. 

Makes the situation a little hard to handle.
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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #12 on: February 08, 2010, 04:45:00 AM »
Quote
Such items could be introduced to vendors in the oncoming higher level hubs, perhaps even to a craft, Alchemy still has much promise...

No please...we all know how that gonna end up. Right now people on low levels already get some rather good items.

This was mainly due to influx of pricing Herbalism Reagents, they came at such a price and such an abundance, -everyone- could afford all crafted, whole sale goods on the markert...

What has this to do with magical weapons?

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2010, 06:21:57 AM »
Stoneskin is very very easy to get around. Acid seath only via bow. Stoneskin+Acid seath= you just weren't fast enough.

Greater spell breach works wonders though...

What is has to do with is, a weapon with "Greater magic weapon (20) 5 charges" would be awesome
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Aldarris

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2010, 08:51:49 AM »
There's ways of getting around a mage gaining the initiative.  Don't make your  intentions known so well ICly, and don't draw your sword until you attack   ;)

If the mage chooses to still cast those spells, knowing OOC you've given the player warning, take a screenshot and report them for metagaming.  We've got a rule against using OOC information to gain advantage in PvP, and sadly, some people still see it fit to do this in the game.

Anyway...

The only -real- way to kill a like level mage for a melee character is to catch them off guard and without spells.  Spells like greater stoneskin (Which there is no VFX), premonition, shadow shield, mage armor, and shield all have ridiculous durations.  So easier said than done.

Giving items that cast spells that counter this such as GMW (17), Magic Vestment (17), energy buffer, protection from elements, endure elements (for striking a mage who has acid sheath) is a great idea.

This way, we turn our low-magic server into a "low permanent magical server with the opportunity to gain temporary magic that casting classes already get unlimited uses of"

I know that's a mouthful, but it makes sense.

Casters would STILL be the magical powerhouses they are because they would ALWAYS have access to such magic.

Melee classes would now have the option to sacrifices few charges on a powerful, very rare magical item to SOMEWHAT level the playing field if they were going to fight a mage.

Great.  Idea.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 08:56:02 AM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2010, 11:17:01 AM »
Quote
Giving items that cast spells that counter this such as GMW (17), Magic Vestment (17), energy buffer, protection from elements, endure elements (for striking a mage who has acid sheath) is a great idea.

Scrolls?  And, yes, it is a good idea.   :thumbup:
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Emomina

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #16 on: February 08, 2010, 11:38:24 AM »
Endure Elements, and Protection from Elements are available through the herbalism craft.
Magic Vestment would do nothing, if, like every other scroll, it casts at minimum caster level. The +1 enhancement would not stack with the +1 armor that is on the crafted armor that 70% of characters wear. For Acid Sheath, there are Robes of Acid Resistence that are readily available.  GMW scrolls (two different caster levels) already drop.
But if you want to take down a mage with stoneskin, and acid sheath, why not get a cleric or mage your self to aid you? You include more characters in the narrative that way, and their buffs are much better and have a longer duration than any scroll or item can provide.
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Aldarris

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #17 on: February 08, 2010, 11:53:03 AM »
I'm looking at it from a general perspective.

Not everyone has access to scrolls, nor does everyone have UMD as a skill.  And say the fighter or barbarian finds themselves alone against a caster, or is a loner themselves.  Still, should we just say the straight out melee'ers are S.O.L.?

No.  It shouldn't be that way.  There should be rare and prized items that cast GMW, Magic Vestment, both at a higher caster level (Notice I put "17"  in brackets there) and other useful spells that are otherwise normally inaccessable.  This would even the field against casters, and especially cleric hybrids who can reach ridiculous excesses of 45+ ab, and 40 AC, having access to a spell (which can also be extended) that grants them a +3/+4 weapon, +3/+4 shield and a +3/+4 suit of armor...that's a combined value of 85.  Likewise, a straight fighter or barbarian (training themselves rigorously in nothing but combat) can only reach a combined score of maybe 64.  And as it is right now, there are no items (other than scrolls of course) that can grant these same bonuses for a melee class even for a short period of time.

The difference between those values is 21.  I didn't even go into the difference when looking at damage...

This evens everything out somewhat so say if a melee class does find himself alone to face a caster, or a cleric...perhaps he's hoarded these rare and useful items to use in a dire situation to again, somewhat even the odds.

Casters will still have unlimited access to spells, and wizards/sorcs/bards can still cast them faster at 2 casts per round under haste whereas a melee character using these items to prepare himself only gets one use per round.

You'd also see less people just taking a few levels of rogue or bard -just- for the UMD  (No offense to anyone intended)

Again.  Good idea.  :)
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 12:07:33 PM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #18 on: February 08, 2010, 01:44:06 PM »
How people are so obsessed with powerful items? I say its much more fun having a crappy mundane blade then that + 3 great sword.

Aldarris

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #19 on: February 08, 2010, 02:18:14 PM »
 So do most other people, I'd think.  Including me.  My point is, why not have a weapon in your back pocket you can use in some dire situation.  Something you've been holding on to, etc...afterall, once the magic from the "powerful item" will make it eventually crumble to nothing, your mundane blade will last forever if you take care of it.
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Budly

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #20 on: February 08, 2010, 02:35:54 PM »
So do most other people, I'd think.  Including me.  My point is, why not have a weapon in your back pocket you can use in some dire situation.  Something you've been holding on to, etc...afterall, once the magic from the "powerful item" will make it eventually crumble to nothing, your mundane blade will last forever if you take care of it.

You do know a + 3 blade do not "run out of power" like a car? :P

So that mundane blade just gonna lay and rot in a bag.

I for one say we do not need more magical items or make  them so few they be worth a lot.


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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2010, 03:32:30 PM »
How people are so obsessed with powerful items? I say its much more fun having a crappy mundane blade then that + 3 great sword.

I love you dearly, Marcus, but ahhh, no.   :lol:
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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2010, 03:51:24 PM »
How people are so obsessed with powerful items? I say its much more fun having a crappy mundane blade then that + 3 great sword.

I love you dearly, Marcus, but ahhh, no.   :lol:

That's what Clerics and Mages are for. Greater Magic Weapon anyone? :D

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #23 on: February 08, 2010, 04:02:01 PM »
I like Aldarris' idea of having limited charges of breach/whatever for fighters to have a chance against prepared mages, but also am tired of listening to the debate of fighter/mage balancing...

If you can't beat the wizard who has stoneskin/acid sheath/mage armour/invisibility, then tough cookies!  :ahem:

*Inhale, exhale.*
« Last Edit: February 08, 2010, 04:05:49 PM by AcidZealot »

ThAnswr

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Re: Casters Vs Melee, The Endless Battle.
« Reply #24 on: February 08, 2010, 04:17:24 PM »
How people are so obsessed with powerful items? I say its much more fun having a crappy mundane blade then that + 3 great sword.

I love you dearly, Marcus, but ahhh, no.   :lol:

That's what Clerics and Mages are for. Greater Magic Weapon anyone? :D

Of all the spells that were requested while my cleric adventured in a party, none came close to GMW in number.  Not even Pro from evil. 

GMW was the #1 spell requested.  What I always found amusing were the ones who loved "low magic' were sometimes the same ones who requested GMW.    Not that I was keeping a book.   :lol:
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