Incorporating a "Called Shot" into firearms usage

[Aldarris]

Gunslingers were able to hit various points on the body with a shot.  Shoot a guy in the hand so they couldn't draw.  Marshal's shooting a fleeing criminal in the leg so they'd fall.

I know normal flintlocks are not as accurate, but even back in the civil war they still had sharpshooters who could do this kind of thing.

I think a Gunsmith PrC would be awesome, but it's not necessary.

We could definately have more uses for the flintlocks, able to shoot someone in the arm or the hand having them incur a -AB, or Shoot them in the leg to make them briefly fall down with a failed discipline roll, as well as once they got back up to lower their movement rate.

We could even give the option at an attempted headshot, which would do double damage.

All of these attempts would incur a penalty on the shot roll themselves.

Thoughts?  Opinions? Ideas?

Cheers.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Well, you should keep in mind that the civil war in the U.S. was probably two hundred years later than the technology level of Dementlieu.

But even disregarding that, technically, it'll be a bit circumstantial to implement.

[Aldarris]

Even pirates were able to do such things back then.  To precisely aim a shot at a target that is moving, one had to take into consideration the wind factor, distance, properly lead the target, etc.  Many factors came into play, which is I think why a "called shot" would require a lowered AB.  If the target is just standing still, the shot is made even easier.

Hitting someone in the leg or in the hand, or head from 30 feet away is not hard at all, even with a crude flintlock pistol.  If the pistol was made well enough, and the barrel is rifled precisely, the shot will be fairly accurate.

Maybe, this could only be an option with the well-made Gearling brand of flintlock pistols.  The cheap kind (naturally) would backfire occasionally and be rather inaccurate.

Today, snipers have precise instruments that help them calculate wind, distance and even more precise factors such as the rotation of the earth in order to make a precise shot from a ridiculous length away.

Yes, I'm sure it would require a great deal to implement.  But it's certainly on my wishlist.  And I think other players might like it also.

Always been intrigued by the art of sniping.

Anyone for or against this idea?

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Not that it's all that significant though, fantasy game and all, but have you heard any historic accounts of pirates doing that?

[Bad_Bud]

Since this is a topic about long range shots, I don't see this idea as being relevant to the flintlocks we have.  With what we have right now, the flintlock pistol's range is rather sad.  The longbow will easily shoot 4x as far as the flintlock.  In fact, the biggest drawback of the flintlocks, to me, is their short range - I swear it must be something like ten meters - which leaves sniping somewhat out of the question.

[Vespertilio]

"Barrel rifling was invented in Vienna at the end of the fifteenth century by Jaspard Zoller. In 1520 August Kotter, an armourer of Nuremberg, improved upon the work of Zoller. Though true rifling dates from the mid-15th century, it did not become commonplace until the nineteenth century."  [wiki]


Renaissance guns, guns which are constructed as unique items in that their parts cannot be interchanged with a gun of the same type, are really quite crude.  In the civil war, most deaths were due to secondary infections from wadding and other contaminated materials being shoved into the body along with the ball, not from the injury itself.  I just can't see 'head shot' technology being available at a renaissance level, for that I still think considering the time period, a bow would do better at long range.

[Kaldo]

 I think that it could be nice to have the called Shot available to Firearms users but There is no way I agree with the ability to try and shoot the head of the target. That is a critical. If that was possible, then it would need to be possible to "Try decapitation" with a sword with reduced Ab.

[Aldarris]

Regardless of OUR history, I don't see how it would be commonplace that Gearling hasn't figured out the process of riffleling in his pistols.  He's developed a sniper pistol with a sight on it that is just beautiful.

This was never a topic for long-range shots.  Sorry if I confused anyone.  I just snuck that in there because sniping fascinates me.  The topic is shooting a target within the range of a flintlock, it is entirely possible to aim at a particular part of the body from a RP standpoint, and with proper application, to hit that target.

There were less accurate weapons developed before the flintlock, such as the wheellock, and even after the flint there was the multi-barrel variety of guns that could only be used at close range.

A normal flintlock is defined as a medium range weapon, which I'd say is 20-40 yards.  Riffeled, the gun can be considered accurate at 40-100 yards.

Saying this, it's perfectly reasonable that someone 10-30 feet away could get their hand or their leg shot by a good marksman.  Maybe someone's flintlock veers the shot slightly to the left, so they make up for it.

it would be a nice option to have.

Since this is probably something that could be implemented, I'd like to hear 'yays' or 'nays' to the idea, and reasons why or why not.

Cheers.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Well, I do see the idea having merit in the sense that it's a gimmick that would only add. The main problem remains though, that comparing the amount of time it would take to implement with how often it would actually be used, it's my initial impression that there's more effective ways for us to prioritize our time to provide most for the most (and right for the right). Flintlocks aren't actually used that much, and those who use it with the called shot feat would be even less. They are a bit EO's project though, so if you can convince him, I wouldn't be against it.

[marlewebber]

I was delighted when a DM spawned an NPC and I got trigger happy and fired my flintlock on a pindrop - they let me do an instant kill!

So our DMs definitely understand your attempt to use flintlocks for cinematic effect.  If you act like Clint Eastwood with your shooter, it will come.

Also, a successful hit knocks down like 50% of the time.  Or maybe just criticals, I actually have no idea.  But often a PC gets floored just by getting shot.  I personally thought 'wounding' would simulate the need to received medical treatment, the lethality of gunshot wounds, and would also increase their prevalence.

[Psyche]

I agree here; flintlocks are surely designed to be. flavoursome.. indeed intended for dramatic effect - I have no doubts than in a DM-encounter situation or pvp both parties in question would be happy to play along with some exciting gunplay - the spirit in which it was intended?

[failed.bard]

  Would it be possible to alter the called shot feat to check to see if a pistol is in hand, and apply the attack based on the called shot numbers?  The feat to aim at arms and legs is in place in game already, but isn't compatable with the way the gun handles attacks.

[Soren / Zarathustra217]

Sadly, no, that doesn't seem to be possible. The called shot feats are somewhat hardcoded.

[Aldarris]

Two new use options would have to be included in the pistol, and a way to devise which is which.  I promise you, if there was more flavor in firearms, we would enjoy it.

Instead of constantly firing back and forth, shoot for the hand/arm so the opponent can't aim as well.  If they try to escape, shoot them in the leg while saying "Where ye goin' boy!?"

This idea just adds more premise to the application of flintlocks, which all I can say is a 

And we should also, once running out of ammunition, be able to use the flintlock as a 1d4 club   

[Minstrel]

It would (afaik) have to be a second and third option added to the weapon item.

One of the reasons that people might choose not to go into using them extensively is a lack of ability to focus in firearms to become better at them like you can with bows and other weaponary. But focusing in firearms would probably require the scripting of new feats, which in turn means hak updates.

[Psyche]

I think the minimal rate-of-fire also has something to do with it.

[Aldarris]

Exactly.  If you're going to get one shot off per 3 rounds, make it count.  If it's an attempt to stop somebody from fleeing, shoot at their leg.  If it's an attempt at stopping someone from attacking you or someone else, shoot 'em in the arm.

[Dhark]

As mentioned [rather expertly by Vespertilio]the technology dosent really support any accuracy at all with these primative weapons, mosty they were used in warfare during this compartative era.

Trying to shoot someones leg as they flee would be a truly superhuman feat with such a weapon....hells, hitting them at all would be down mostly to luck alone.

Ive let off a few black powder devices in my time, one thing I will say about them, if your planning to hit anything smaller than garden shed then pick up a brick & throw it 

One thing I would like to see improved possibly is the dammage, or more in keeping the crit dammage . Although not in the same time line, tales tell of an English officer hit by a musket ball in his shoulder .

Now if like me you were thinking small hole the size of golf ball or even large hole the size tennis ball you would be woefully wrong ...

"His arm hung from its shattered socket by the meerest strips of flesh, his ribs exposed so that one could see his failing heart beneath.."

[Aahz]

Trying to shoot someones leg as they flee would be a truly superhuman feat with such a weapon....hells, hitting them at all would be down mostly to luck alone.

That reminds me of a scene from a TV movie of Treasure Island (Charlton Heston played Long John Silver)

The Pirates make their first attack below decks and are driven off. One man says "Sorry, I seem to have wounded one of them in the leg" His partner says "Nothing to be sorry about! You were just defending yourself"  The First man responds "No, I was aiming for his head. This musket is firing low"

The entire firefight could not have had than 30 yards distance between the groups.

[Aldarris]

A rifle firing low?  It must have a conscience  

"My musket is repeatedly firing low.  Perhaps on my next shot I should compensate"  

If you know the weapon, the better you can use it.

Again, I'd probably say only the sniper flintlock would have this feat, having an elongated and perhaps riffeled barrel and sight.

To compensate for the ability to hit different parts, damage could be lessened somewhat.

For the musket

For military purposes, the weapon was loaded with ball, or a mixture of ball with several large shot, and had an effective range between 40 and 100 meters

A typical smooth bore musket firing at a single target was only accurate to about 50 yards (46 m) to 70 yards (64 m). Rifled muskets of the mid 19th century were significantly more accurate, with the ability to hit a man sized target at up to 500 yards (460 m).

Their effective range was very short, and they were frequently used as an adjunct to the sword or cutlass. Pistols were usually smoothbore although rifled pistols were produced.


What really is the question, is if Gearling would have figured out the gyroscopic principle or not.

EDIT: The snaplock mechanism first appeared in 1540.  Followed by the Snaphance mechanism in the late 1550's, and the flintlock mechanism was introduced shortly after the year 1610.

Rifiling itself was invented at the end of the fifteenth century.

If we have flintlock pistols...then yes, he problably has.

Also, Tarinyar is completely right.  It was quite common for limbs to be blown off by musket fire.