Author Topic: Matter of Balance - Amplify  (Read 19492 times)

eyeofpestilence

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Matter of Balance - Amplify
« on: January 19, 2010, 02:49:09 AM »
There is a plethora of listen builds lately. Not really as many spot builds. I would suggest this is in part to a spell which provides +20 to Listen, Amplify. I've not posted on this single spell until now because there has been a lack of listen items. I've heard today that's changed with listen rings now being available. I like the idea of listen rings, but dislike the amplify spell as it is now a sneak auto win.

 :arrow: It in comparison to a potion of true seeing at +10 is double, though lasts a shorter time period.
 :arrow: Both stack with keen senses which are available via Potion
 :arrow: Add rings +3 listen
 :arrow: Add helm of bat +5

Without listen skill, the total is +41 to listen. (two rings +3, helm of bat +5 , Keen Sense +10, and Amplify +20). Add D20 for listen and I would suggest any sneak with even all the best gear, and all feats will be heard unless they have DP's, or are a ranger out doors, from someone without any skill in listen will be heard. Add someone with Listen ranks and it's outrageous and causes PC sneaks to become completely pointless.

I suggest amplify should be made in line with True Seeing, instead of straight +20.

It's imbalanced. That's my  :twocents:
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 02:52:53 AM by eyeofpestilence »

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failed.bard

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2010, 03:47:55 AM »
  Amplify lasts 1 round per level.  It's only useful if you already have some reason to think someone is there.  It's also a bard only spell, meaning only bards and characters with UMD have access to it.
  Bards, clerics, druids, and sorc/wiz all have true-seeing, plus the access to potions.

  When comparing it to true seeing, the spot bonus from clairaudience/clairovoyance doesn't stack with the spot bonus from true seeing.
  True seeing is a lower bonus (generally), but a considerably longer duration, plus search bonuses which stack with find traps, invisibility, and ultravision.

  Rings of listen are ultra-rare, to the point I've never even seen one in three years with any character of mine.


  The ability to stack clairaudience and amplify is the only part I see even being close to a balance issue.

tzaeru

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2010, 03:48:40 AM »
If the potions stack, which should just give Clairaudience/clairvoyance as spell, it's a bug, since Clairaudience/clairvoyance isn't supposed to stack with neither True Seeing nor Amplify as far as I remember correctly (Although I might be wrong here?).

On the same breath, I'd suggest dropping Amplify down to same as True Seeing: +1 Listen/level.

k_moustakas

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2010, 09:04:25 AM »
If they stack then that should be corrected. Beyond that, this line describes it all:

It lasts only one round per level, so you can only take real advantage of it if you already think something is amiss.

As far as gear is concerned, I think we had almost thoroughly discussed them in this topic http://www.nwnravenloft.com/forum/index.php?topic=15609.0. I think the only things missing from there are the listen rings, the hide/ms rings, and the +5 ms belt and more or less, they balance each other out.
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Antonus Taran

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2010, 09:37:52 AM »
These spells do normally stack in NWN. Further - I think that if someone actually bothers to collect two +3 rings, a helm of the bat, true seeing, keen senses potion, and a bard to put Amplify on them 24/7 for good measure, then they damn well deserve to find a sneak. I know of sneak characters that have reached the 70+ range, that only PCs that have devoted their entire build to spotting/listening could hope to catch.

We have lots and lots of sneak gear and sneak feats on this server. If someone puts in the effort, they should be given the option of finding such sneaks.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 09:45:17 AM by Fürst Johannes-Vokan II »
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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2010, 10:41:48 AM »
I agree with Vokan, here..  ( :O ) :)
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Chrisman888

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2010, 11:37:52 AM »
These spells do normally stack in NWN. Further - I think that if someone actually bothers to collect two +3 rings, a helm of the bat, true seeing, keen senses potion, and a bard to put Amplify on them 24/7 for good measure, then they damn well deserve to find a sneak. I know of sneak characters that have reached the 70+ range, that only PCs that have devoted their entire build to spotting/listening could hope to catch.

We have lots and lots of sneak gear and sneak feats on this server. If someone puts in the effort, they should be given the option of finding such sneaks.


Who has 70+ right now?  I dono all the sneaks, but most I met don't come close to that.


Also in order to even come close to that, the sneak would have to devote his entire build to Hide/Move Silently as well.


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Kaspar

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2010, 11:41:07 AM »
These spells do normally stack in NWN. Further - I think that if someone actually bothers to collect two +3 rings, a helm of the bat, true seeing, keen senses potion, and a bard to put Amplify on them 24/7 for good measure, then they damn well deserve to find a sneak. I know of sneak characters that have reached the 70+ range, that only PCs that have devoted their entire build to spotting/listening could hope to catch.

We have lots and lots of sneak gear and sneak feats on this server. If someone puts in the effort, they should be given the option of finding such sneaks.


Who has 70+ right now?  I dono all the sneaks, but most I met don't come close to that.


Also in order to even come close to that, the sneak would have to devote his entire build to Hide/Move Silently as well.


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Pepchko

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2010, 12:25:35 PM »
If the potions stack, which should just give Clairaudience/clairvoyance as spell, it's a bug, since Clairaudience/clairvoyance isn't supposed to stack with neither True Seeing nor Amplify as far as I remember correctly (Although I might be wrong here?).

On the same breath, I'd suggest dropping Amplify down to same as True Seeing: +1 Listen/level.

100% agree with ya Tzaeru

Chrisman888

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2010, 12:58:10 PM »
These spells do normally stack in NWN. Further - I think that if someone actually bothers to collect two +3 rings, a helm of the bat, true seeing, keen senses potion, and a bard to put Amplify on them 24/7 for good measure, then they damn well deserve to find a sneak. I know of sneak characters that have reached the 70+ range, that only PCs that have devoted their entire build to spotting/listening could hope to catch.

We have lots and lots of sneak gear and sneak feats on this server. If someone puts in the effort, they should be given the option of finding such sneaks.


Who has 70+ right now?  I dono all the sneaks, but most I met don't come close to that.


Also in order to even come close to that, the sneak would have to devote his entire build to Hide/Move Silently as well.


~ Chris

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Well according to you, your wight is also DPed, has old school uber gear, and wights do get big bonuses in hide/ms  :P. Unless they nerfed it some dono


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dutchy

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2010, 01:10:58 PM »
to be honest i dont mind that sneakers get more trouble, they wernt overpowered not at all but sneaks where...hard to counter and its easyer now, its a balance thing and i think it will work out fine.
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Kaspar

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2010, 01:25:29 PM »
These spells do normally stack in NWN. Further - I think that if someone actually bothers to collect two +3 rings, a helm of the bat, true seeing, keen senses potion, and a bard to put Amplify on them 24/7 for good measure, then they damn well deserve to find a sneak. I know of sneak characters that have reached the 70+ range, that only PCs that have devoted their entire build to spotting/listening could hope to catch.

We have lots and lots of sneak gear and sneak feats on this server. If someone puts in the effort, they should be given the option of finding such sneaks.


Who has 70+ right now?  I dono all the sneaks, but most I met don't come close to that.


Also in order to even come close to that, the sneak would have to devote his entire build to Hide/Move Silently as well.


~ Chris

My wight.


Well according to you, your wight is also DPed, has old school uber gear, and wights do get big bonuses in hide/ms  :P. Unless they nerfed it some dono


~ Chris



My Wight isn't the only one that has DPs, and old school uber gear.  ;)

Basically, it spans out like this from what I've seen. If you build a listen/spot build, devote feats to it and such, then you will counter sneaks.

The only pieces of Listen gear that I'm aware of are- Helm of the Bat +5, Silence Cloak +2-3, +3 listen rings.

The pieces of Spot gear I know, and have used on Lucian are- Two +5 spot rings, +3 spot helmet, +5 spot bow, +2 spot with Vardo uniform.

So a Listen build is heavily reliant on level/round spells to boost up their listen score, while Spot builds can sit around with the same amount of points a listen build would have but for a much longer duration.

I say leave the spell as is. The limited gear made available for Listen builds balances it out, whether you can stack Claro with Amplify or not. Sneaks can stack Camo, Mass Camo, and one with the Land. That's +24 Hide, +4 MS. That's unbalanced, because of how much sneak gear is available. Oh, Vasile only has 54 listen when he's buffed with amplify/claro, with full ranks into listen and a bat helmet. Some sneaks still manage to sneak by me, or listen in on a conversation long enough, before they're noticed.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 01:28:26 PM by Peasant »

k_moustakas

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2010, 02:57:21 PM »
Heh, -my- wight is near that number and has almost little sneak gear and non of the skill focus feats (and no dp's either). It's not that hard. If you dedicate yourself to something you can damn well succeed it.

This is why this server is like a builder's dream hehe.
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Heretic

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2010, 03:30:59 PM »
I have an idea!

Lets bring back JULIA COLDS AND LETS ALL LOOT HER!  ^-^

Or Lets have Lord Soth Sack her Loot-whorin' domain! I'll RUN A PLOT, who's in! WHO'S IN?! Send me a PM!  :P


I am so disconnected with the values of a sneaker from this era. I remember as Armand, I carried a lot of those amplify scrolls, there was no such thing as unspottable foes when I used them. I'd be scared as hell in this era, though, and much more careful, no VFX, you can't really know what others have stacked as buffs, poor sneaks must walk on eggshels and really choose their victims well, or disguise, which isn't a bad thing in itself. Things do seem a lot more balanced, even if there's tendencies that, non-grandfathered sneakers, are at a disadvantage with current spotters. Anyway, perhaps more constructive feedback will glean more and more items can be pulled in.

Emomina

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #14 on: January 19, 2010, 03:43:00 PM »
    Amplify combined with an even moderate detect build pc will instantly hear any stealth character that has only gear that is still dropping.

Consider this.  Human Rogue will max dexterity modifier at +6, +23 ranks, +2 stealthy, +3 skill focus+ 2 from great skill focus. And the only move silently gear still dropping are the +2 boots.  There is a cloak with good move silently that still drops but it is a light source and kills the stealther's hide modifier so its useless without invisibility. The problem is that the bar for reasonable success was put at god level at some point in the server's past, no newly created stealth character will ever reach competitive level against the detect gear and amplify combination. Even with One with the land scrolls and cats grace potion/scrolls the Move Silently modifier will barely get in the 40s, at level 20. +40 move silently is so uber in DnD but on PotM and the NWN PW culture, its a laughable number for some reason. The amount of bonus to any skill from gear should be carefully considered because when a hulking Barbarian in full plate and no feats or ranks but with all the best gear, is better at stealth than a max stealth build, then the gear is too powerful.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 06:12:08 PM by Emomina »
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Aldarris

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #15 on: January 19, 2010, 04:00:46 PM »
Hectors Wary Treads drop.  That's +5 MS.

Anyway, to bring up a PC that has DPs (Except Julia Colds.  We should all mug her) is EDIT: Not logical, as not everyone has access to those.  We're looking at what players have access to normally.

The highest move silently a sneaking PC can get, if they were a ranger with maximum MS, (Which sacrifices 3 points in hide when using optimal gear) and with spells is about 66.  No DPs factored.

The highest a PC obsessed with 'listen', if they were a bard/ranger hybrid could achieve is a whooping 74, with optimal gear and spells factored in.  Add that to the bonus one gets for standing completely still, and it becomes 79.  No DPs factored.

If we're looking at balance, as is the subject of this thread then the numbers speak for themselves.

79>66.

Lowering Amplify to +10 instead of +20 is a very good suggestion.  This brings the numbers to a more even balance.

69>66.

If we are looking at JUST the numbers themselves, well I find the number 69 to be much more fun than 79.  It's also much more widely accepted and overall, is a better number.   :lol:

Balancing in DnD is all about math and numbers.  Always has been, always will be.

Aldarris' advice:  Lower the bonus of Amplify from +20 to +10.

« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 04:03:16 PM by Aldarris »
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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #16 on: January 19, 2010, 04:12:11 PM »
Could you analyse how you got to those numbers? I'm not doubting, I'm curious.
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Emomina

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #17 on: January 19, 2010, 04:13:47 PM »
There was some reasonable balance, some. But adding listen bonuses to rings was most likely not wise, someone should try making a stealther with a brand new pc and plan on never getting grandfathered items to really get a sense of how impossible PvP stealth has become, and there is no reason to waste as many as 5 feats on something you will never be good at. Its out of balance, and not fixable as long as the standard is PCs that can roll move silently in 70s, something the god of thieves, Mask himself would be proud to accomplish.
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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #18 on: January 19, 2010, 05:13:33 PM »
Mm..admittedly the way sneaking is going nowadays, it is a lot harder than 'the good ol' days'

But there are valid reasons for such, when 'stealth' was nerfed spotting/listening was not...

As far as the possibility for sneaks possibility to gaining gear, +2/3 is possible, as stated some of the rarer gear does drop.

Perhaps removing some of the nerfs from the spot items would help, making gloaming candle/seeing stone (TS item wise) count per bonus to the users level would help.
But i doubt it...

Amplify counts per round, it gives a huge bonus but lasts all but briefly, as said before, used when you suspect a sneak to be close..

In comparrison to what i've seen, there is more spot gear on the server than listen gear, although it is often hand me down or rare drops/dm drops.
So unless spot items found themselves to drop a little more frequen on the loot tables (max spawn or at certain dungeons) it would shift the balance slightly...


Antonus Taran

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #19 on: January 19, 2010, 05:39:21 PM »
Sneaking should be hard. Perhaps the amount of listen builds people are talking about is simply a result of tons of people relying on stealth in PVP. After all, it is one of the easiest ways to 'win' - stealth stealth, wait till enemy is unbuffed or whatever, gank, giggle and run away with the body.

A stealther's job should also be to know who to be careful around. Amplify is round-per-level. If the sneaker notices the person casting Amplify and doesn't gtfo, the sneaker deserves to get caught and killed. The best stealthers don't rely only on numbers.

I think we're assuming that everyone is going to be wearing two +3 listen rings and a helm of the bat at all times. I'm sorry, but there are way better rings to use than +3 listen crap. It's unrealistic to assume Amplify is a constantly-running spell.

Our current situation is balanced, and actually favors stealthy characters, if you pull out and look at the grand scheme instead of number-crunching. Yeah, you'll get caught by a fully buffed Bard/Ranger Hybrid who never changes out of his listen gear. But you can probably kill the bard/ranger hybrid because he's wearing listen gear.


Further - Aldarris, you mention that it's a 66 vs a 79 in sneak v listen. However, if you remove Amplify, we're talking 66 (assuming the sneak isn't wearing optimal sneak gear, otherwise it'd be 69) vs a 59.

Assuming Amplify is reduced to a +10, it means that when the bard is fully buffed against the sneak, for round-per-level, they have a 50% chance of catching the sneak. And that's with everything dumped into listen. That doesn't make sense to me from a balancing perspective.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 05:51:40 PM by Fürst Johannes-Vokan II »
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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #20 on: January 19, 2010, 06:03:40 PM »
Sneaking should be hard.

I have always completely agreed that stealthing should be hard. What I am saying is that its really really really hard and quite possibly impossible ALREADY for any newly created stealth character, and that addition of rings that do listen boosts has only made it harder.

You speak like there are so many rings out there that offer something that can not be sacrificed. I for one, have at least two characters that have never found a ring that did anything beneficiary for them  and will certainly wear rings of listen on both hands when they come across them.

Stealth used for PvP is one thing, but try to make a spy, a character that does not stir up grief by killing other player characters, but trades information illicitly and sucks at combat, and any skills not based on dexterity, and all for the role-play benefits of going undetected, and only to find out that your character, that was completely built for one thing in mind, can not stay undetected more than a round or two against even characters lower level and not built to specifically detect. Its disheartening, and as a player of a higher level rogue, I have received questions from players of lower level stealthers on things like "what is the best gear that i can actually find" and "what level do I need to get to before you can stealth passed pcs or the monsters at X dungeon or Y dungeon" And I honestly dont want to tell them that they will need to get their hands on gear that only a few sets are in the server, and worth more to the players that have them than anything they would receive in trade. I don't know the solution, and I am not saying that the rings are going to ruin anything. My main character is the only stealth character I will likely ever play here, and she is as good as she can be at it, and I am happy with stealth as it is. I do know that its not a level playing field for new stealth characters though, and I challenge anyone to run around with a max stealth character up to whatever level you want, and see how successful they are at their best attribute with only readily available loot.
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Chrisman888

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #21 on: January 19, 2010, 06:46:08 PM »
To be honest, someone needs to make neat post of the spells for spot/listen and the spells for hide/move silently.

Then the list of feats..

Then the list of know drop-able gear for each.

Then discuss. To many people are flying numbers and accusations without really laying it down. ( And I am too lazy to do it  :mrgreen:)


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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #22 on: January 19, 2010, 07:11:30 PM »
To add a little point;

If someone designs their character specifically to be effective at stealthing, the character would in that sense be effective against about everything. If someone designs their character specifically to be effective against stealthing, all those priorities would only be effective against a small amount of foes. It only seems balanced that they have good chances at doing it if they really make such priorities.

 :twocents:

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #23 on: January 19, 2010, 07:13:44 PM »
Quote
Further - Aldarris, you mention that it's a 66 vs a 79 in sneak v listen. However, if you remove Amplify, we're talking 66 (assuming the sneak isn't wearing optimal sneak gear, otherwise it'd be 69) vs a 59.

You roll about 10 times in a round if I am not mistaken (it's a lot more than once per round). The chances that someone with 59 listen + d20 will spot someone with 66 move silently + d20 are ridiculously high. And once you detect someone once, it's permanent. That means that in order for stealth skills to be balanced, they have to be at least 15-20 higher than spotting skills. If they are over 20 higher, they are impossible to detect, if they are lower than 20, it's just a matter of seconds (the time the rolls play in the favor of the spotter).

Considering sneaking is not a matter of a few seconds, but minutes and sometimes hours, the assessment that stealth is gimped at the moment is a correct one.

In general though, while people bring up Amplify, Clairvo and True Seeing, I could counter with Camouflage and One with the Land. These two spells are pretty handy, but it is true that there are far more detection spells than hiding spells and the power of detection spells are better than those of stealth ones.

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Re: Matter of Balance - Amplify
« Reply #24 on: January 19, 2010, 07:47:57 PM »
It's amazing that my post on where I got my numbers was deleted.  But I suppose, it would ruin the fun for everyone else.  Actually, I forgot to include owl's wisdom in my evaluation so the number one could achieve in listen is 81.

In my mind, I was just trying to save everyone about an hour of looking things up.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2010, 07:51:33 PM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*