Author Topic: Lower the level cap to 12?  (Read 12329 times)

Bad_Bud

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #50 on: January 04, 2010, 04:09:34 PM »
Not everyone that dresses dark and crosses their arms at night is a brooding loner with no fears.  Perhaps you should approach these characters and talk to them.

In fact, I don't think there are very many brooding loners standing around these days.  Most of them have moved on.

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #51 on: January 04, 2010, 04:23:44 PM »
Not everyone that dresses dark and crosses their arms at night is a brooding loner with no fears.  Perhaps you should approach these characters and talk to them.

In fact, I don't think there are very many brooding loners standing around these days.  Most of them have moved on.
They've come and gone in waves over the years since we opened up about 5 years ago. There may be a dearth of them now, but they'll probably show up again in the future.

I think the main reason they show up is because they are a very common staple of High Fantasy literature (Aragorn, Conan, etc.), which the average player of NWN is more familiar with than gothic horror.

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Aahz

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #52 on: January 04, 2010, 04:48:11 PM »
I don't particularly like the notion that high level character will have to pay a fee just to get into the gameworld.
Uh, you won't. You'll be in the game world, just a different part than the lower levels.

Oh it sounded like the high levels would end up at the mist camp and thus would have the option to pay 100 coin to get to Barovia, Blaustein, Dementlieu, etc, or sit there.
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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #53 on: January 04, 2010, 04:52:08 PM »
I was more referring to cliques that tend to coagulate around certain outskirts landmarks, but don't mind me...
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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #54 on: January 04, 2010, 05:06:00 PM »
Really?  No dark brooking mysterious figures in gothic horror?  If gothic horror isn't dark and brooding and mysterious, please enlighten us as to what it is.  

Look at The Modern Prometheus (Frankenstein to you and me), a world known classic example of the genre. At no point in that book does the main character grab a hood and a cloak, and stand near to his pub leaning on the wall and watching people come and go. He was trying to piece his life back together and live normally, and cover up his mistakes.

The Monster itself does something similar to brooding, but when it is doing this it is out of sight and hiding, not openly standing around looking cool.

I don't expect that we'll ever get a genuine PnP-like Ravenloft atmosphere simply because a large percentage of players fit into a category of either not knowing, not caring, or not wanting. It's unavoidable and doing anything to counter it seems to upset people anyway.

The gothic horror element in the Barovian area is due to the night. In day, it's actually a fairly picturesque land. But you get hints at something being amiss due to the shut down and xenophobic nature of most the natives. And when night comes, the horror rears its ugly head, and the place has turned from a nice pleasant land into one that wants you dead and is fully capable of making you so, if not worse.

Considering that, those of you who have PnP experience, imagine your DM telling you that as the sun begins to head towards the west and the sky begins to darken, with everyone quickly seeming to disappear behind heavy doors, with faint sounds of bolts being shot and locks being turned, having recieved warning earlier that you should do the same, having a character state 'Hmm. I ignore their advice, they're simple paranoid peasants. I shouldn't be afraid of the night, it should be afraid of me.' or some similar line.

That characters life expectancy can be measured in seconds.

Which is why in a Ravenloft, and indeed in any Gothic Horror setting, dark brooding figures are not regulars.

Tying loosely back into the topic, with any of the things the 'elitist / hardcore' crowd have been supporting (Lower level caps, harsher consequences for death, less widely availabel healing, less demigod PC's, less freely available healing), there'd be less of such stuff, and more fear of the night.

To further this rambling rant with an old favourite of mine: Ravenloft is a rise and fall. It makes heroes. People go from Neutral, couldn't-give-a-damn nobodies and rise up in this world. They rise until the Dark Powers whack them on the head, like a rising whack-a-mole. Then they decline. They fade out, become targets of the Dark Powers, realise there is too much to fight and that it is too strong, or they die. They lose something important. They realise how far they strayed from their Gods teachings. Etc.

By the time they finish the campaign, the PC's will be shadows of their former shelves. That change, is the horror.

And at no point will they have taken up brooding.

/rant. :D

tl;dr, Leaning on things and trying to look cool is not Goth Horror, it's Fantasy Coolness which is perfectly fine in Forgotten Realms, not so much Ravenloft.

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, nor that my words are Gospel to anyone but my opinionated self, but I also like to think I know a thing or two about what Ravenloft is and is not, having DM'd for a campaign of it part-time. The only mildly brooding figure I remember in my campaign (when I wasn't running it) was an 11th level Fallen Paladin of Tyr, who generally spent his time in a bar drowning his sorrows, having lost his Paladinhood after abandoning his friends to retreat. The PC's were sent to him after deciding to look for someone from their world who had experience adventuring. They went expecting a knight in shining armour, to find that the armour was rusting in a chest and the knight was shamed.

Mental note:

Buy my assassin a frilly white dress.
+6 to Bluff and Disguise when at a wedding.  :mrgreen:

Heh, my beef is not with Assassins wearing black and hoods. Just combined with the 'Trying to look badass' arms fold and brood, it results in silly.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 05:08:43 PM by Minstrel »

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #55 on: January 04, 2010, 05:17:21 PM »
I don't particularly like the notion that high level character will have to pay a fee just to get into the gameworld.
Uh, you won't. You'll be in the game world, just a different part than the lower levels.

Oh it sounded like the high levels would end up at the mist camp and thus would have the option to pay 100 coin to get to Barovia, Blaustein, Dementlieu, etc, or sit there.
There'll be dungeons near the Mist camp to gain coin, and there will be a more dangerous option to try and brave the Mists yourself, which will have an element of randomness to it.

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Kaspar

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #56 on: January 04, 2010, 05:44:19 PM »
I was more referring to cliques that tend to coagulate around certain outskirts landmarks, but don't mind me...

Going to make it a point to stand around these landmarks more often, I think.  :mrgreen:

Bad_Bud

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #57 on: January 04, 2010, 05:45:46 PM »
Really?  No dark brooking mysterious figures in gothic horror?  If gothic horror isn't dark and brooding and mysterious, please enlighten us as to what it is.  

Look at The Modern Prometheus (Frankenstein to you and me), a world known classic example of the genre. At no point in that book does the main character grab a hood and a cloak, and stand near to his pub leaning on the wall and watching people come and go. He was trying to piece his life back together and live normally, and cover up his mistakes.

The Monster itself does something similar to brooding, but when it is doing this it is out of sight and hiding, not openly standing around looking cool.

I don't expect that we'll ever get a genuine PnP-like Ravenloft atmosphere simply because a large percentage of players fit into a category of either not knowing, not caring, or not wanting. It's unavoidable and doing anything to counter it seems to upset people anyway.

The gothic horror element in the Barovian area is due to the night. In day, it's actually a fairly picturesque land. But you get hints at something being amiss due to the shut down and xenophobic nature of most the natives. And when night comes, the horror rears its ugly head, and the place has turned from a nice pleasant land into one that wants you dead and is fully capable of making you so, if not worse.

Considering that, those of you who have PnP experience, imagine your DM telling you that as the sun begins to head towards the west and the sky begins to darken, with everyone quickly seeming to disappear behind heavy doors, with faint sounds of bolts being shot and locks being turned, having recieved warning earlier that you should do the same, having a character state 'Hmm. I ignore their advice, they're simple paranoid peasants. I shouldn't be afraid of the night, it should be afraid of me.' or some similar line.

That characters life expectancy can be measured in seconds.

Which is why in a Ravenloft, and indeed in any Gothic Horror setting, dark brooding figures are not regulars.

Tying loosely back into the topic, with any of the things the 'elitist / hardcore' crowd have been supporting (Lower level caps, harsher consequences for death, less widely availabel healing, less demigod PC's, less freely available healing), there'd be less of such stuff, and more fear of the night.

To further this rambling rant with an old favourite of mine: Ravenloft is a rise and fall. It makes heroes. People go from Neutral, couldn't-give-a-damn nobodies and rise up in this world. They rise until the Dark Powers whack them on the head, like a rising whack-a-mole. Then they decline. They fade out, become targets of the Dark Powers, realise there is too much to fight and that it is too strong, or they die. They lose something important. They realise how far they strayed from their Gods teachings. Etc.

By the time they finish the campaign, the PC's will be shadows of their former shelves. That change, is the horror.

And at no point will they have taken up brooding.

/rant. :D

tl;dr, Leaning on things and trying to look cool is not Goth Horror, it's Fantasy Coolness which is perfectly fine in Forgotten Realms, not so much Ravenloft.

I don't claim to be an expert on the subject, nor that my words are Gospel to anyone but my opinionated self, but I also like to think I know a thing or two about what Ravenloft is and is not, having DM'd for a campaign of it part-time. The only mildly brooding figure I remember in my campaign (when I wasn't running it) was an 11th level Fallen Paladin of Tyr, who generally spent his time in a bar drowning his sorrows, having lost his Paladinhood after abandoning his friends to retreat. The PC's were sent to him after deciding to look for someone from their world who had experience adventuring. They went expecting a knight in shining armour, to find that the armour was rusting in a chest and the knight was shamed.

Mental note:

Buy my assassin a frilly white dress.
+6 to Bluff and Disguise when at a wedding.  :mrgreen:

Heh, my beef is not with Assassins wearing black and hoods. Just combined with the 'Trying to look badass' arms fold and brood, it results in silly.

What a silly argument.  I don't understand what people are trying to get at.  The point of standing around is to interact with other characters in the hopes that something will happen.  When you read a book or watch a movie, if for some reason you see someone standing around or looking for something to do for large portions of the book or movie, then the story obviously sucks.  Stories skip to the good parts.  However, in game, it often takes patience to get involved in things.  Sometimes you have to wait around for the action to happen, and we can't be actively pursuing everything all the time, even our characters' dreams and desires - it comes in bursts.  The rest of the time, we simply exist, and existing means being social and standing around talking to people or hitting a dungeon.

For those of you that magically have characters that are always busy and always motivated and always have the opportunity to pursue what is required to advance their plot, that's your playstyle and your good fortune.

I don't care if you see it in a book or not.

I've always believed it to be a fun joke to laugh at the brooding characters, but when we're at the point that we're literally suggesting that having your character stand around is somehow detrimental and needs to be avoided, I think we're missing the point.  If you're claiming those that stand around all the time are in cliques, you are mistaken.  It's the character that only interact with their friends and are never seen that exist in cliques, not the people standing around willing to interact with anyone and everyone that happens by.
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 05:49:28 PM by Bad_Bud »

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #58 on: January 04, 2010, 05:53:09 PM »
Don't get me wrong Blue, but I think getting that game was a source for inspiration for you. I remember playing it back when it first came out and thinking it was really good.
Especially the part about going inside the mist against all those bloomy treants!
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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #59 on: January 04, 2010, 05:58:16 PM »
"by the time they finish the campaign" would more readily apply to PnP where it's a handful of people around a table who all get DM attention and events that were tailored to their characters.  I've found in the seven years so far of NWN on pw servers, there is no finish, it's an open ended series of experiences, developments and changes.  PC driven dynamics rarely have an 'end' and rp hubs always have people loitering in them, because they're looking to rp.


I could just run into the room and punch you in the balls; sure, that's scary. That's entertainment. But it isn't horror...

ThAnswr

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #60 on: January 04, 2010, 06:52:12 PM »
Honestly, I don't understand this.  People want an RP server and, by it's nature, that includes a lot of posing and chatter/intrigue/BS.  And yet the complaints still keep coming.  

Because 'Dark brooding figure of Mysteriousness' has more place in a Stephanie Meyer novel than it does in a Gothic Horror setting.

Really?  No dark brooking mysterious figures in gothic horror?  If gothic horror isn't dark and brooding and mysterious, please enlighten us as to what it is.  

In your opinion, of course.  


The dark brooding loner is a very poor fit for a gothic horror setting because they have nothing to fear and nothing to lose. The protagonists in gothic literature are always well-to-do, have plenty of friends and family members, and thus are more prone to feelings of horror and fear when they face the supernatural.

Pardon me,  but I don't see the word "loner" in anything I wrote.  The reason for that is because none of what I said has to do with loners.  It has to do with mysterious looking people hanging around the outskirts.  

The fact is people hang around hubs looking for RP and people to hook up with.  Not everyone has the benefit of DM attention to move their story along.  They have to create their own story and they create it through their persona and the persona's of those around them.   Sometimes you have to engage those around in conversation to get to the truth.  That's what RP is all about.  

Btw, who knew a hood and a cloak were so inhibiting.   :lol:

And an apology to Vokan because, apparently, I misunderstood what you're saying.   :oops:

Having said my piece, I'll bow out of this discussion because it is rapidly moving into that other well-worn discussion:   "You're doing it wrong".  
« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 07:10:56 PM by ThAnswr »
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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #61 on: January 04, 2010, 07:56:24 PM »
05/01/2010
For five years players have been wearing hoods and cloaks, thus doing Gothic Horror wrong, and thus RUINING PotM FOREVER

These discussions are quickly moving to the futile end of inane lane.

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Re: Lower the level cap to 12?
« Reply #62 on: January 04, 2010, 08:43:23 PM »
05/01/2010
For five years players have been wearing hoods and cloaks, thus doing Gothic Horror wrong, and thus RUINING PotM FOREVER

These discussions are quickly moving to the futile end of inane lane.
Agreed, especially since that's not what I said anyway.

Locking this thread.

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