Author Topic: Fear  (Read 17038 times)

ThAnswr

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Re: Fear
« Reply #25 on: December 08, 2009, 03:54:20 PM »
And an armadillo jumps straight up when frightened and gets squashed.  I've hit one or two of those.  Could that be classified as a "scientific viewpoint" based on RL?   ;)

I think I'll sit back and observe this soon-to-be trainwreck from a distance that's "far enough to be  safe and close enough to feel the love that's about to bust out all over".   :mrgreen:

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Aahz

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Re: Fear
« Reply #26 on: December 08, 2009, 03:59:35 PM »
I swear they should use these game mechanic discussion threads for psychology training.
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Re: Fear
« Reply #27 on: December 08, 2009, 03:59:58 PM »
I'm not convinced that allowing people to control their characters will result in them roleplaying the effects of Fear at all when it comes to PvP situations, instead they're likely just opting to keep fighting.

The aim I'm seeing is that you're trying to avoid characters standing still while getting beaten up or running into more enemies and getting beaten up. So, fear possibly could:

 :arrow: Allow control;
 :arrow: -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks (as per panicked description);
 :arrow: Significant percentage of spell failure;
 :arrow: Significant penalty to AB.





ThAnswr

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Re: Fear
« Reply #28 on: December 08, 2009, 04:02:24 PM »
I swear they should use these game mechanic discussion threads for psychology training.

Shhh, let's keep some things among ourselves.   :lol:
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Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #29 on: December 08, 2009, 04:03:47 PM »
Or, somehow make it so that offensive options are not available, IE the character cannot attack or target creatures with spells.  However, they can move and flee, use abilities and mages could possibly be able to use self-targeted spells.
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Delete Me

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Re: Fear
« Reply #30 on: December 08, 2009, 04:09:52 PM »
I'm not convinced that allowing people to control their characters will result in them roleplaying the effects of Fear at all when it comes to PvP situations, instead they're likely just opting to keep fighting.

The aim I'm seeing is that you're trying to avoid characters standing still while getting beaten up or running into more enemies and getting beaten up. So, fear possibly could:

 :arrow: Allow control;
 :arrow: -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks (as per panicked description);
 :arrow: Significant percentage of spell failure;
 :arrow: Significant penalty to AB.

With a good -15 to AB, and a 100% spell failure, I would be for this, actually.

Gives me the control to run -where- I want to run, because it makes fighting useless.
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Emomina

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Re: Fear
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2009, 04:12:00 PM »
I don't agree with dropping hand-held items, but the spell is not operating in a way that is similar to the PnP version, which we always seem to emulate. The fact that the spell can be countered is not a good argument for leaving it the way that it is, because that is not what we were trying to change.

I concede your point that changing the spell to real effect is valid. But my point is that it is balanced, and not broken.  Whenever there is a detrimental effect in dnd, there is also a readily available counter to keep it in zen like balance. Because it can be countered, it can push then envelope of fairness. There are many examples of it.  Stealth is countered by true seeing, magic missile by shield, fireball by evasion, mobility by opportunist   .........etc etc.

I think it is important to consider how well the counter is, and how readily available it is when thinking about how powerful something is, that is my point.
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ethinos

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Re: Fear
« Reply #32 on: December 08, 2009, 04:23:37 PM »
Oh, but I don't think Fear is overly powerful, and with some of the recommendations in this thread, may even become more powerful. I simply do not like how Bioware implemented Fear in this game (and this is not a new thing for me either). I also do not care a bit about counters, either, when I am more worried about the spell's effect and its closeness to its PnP counterpart.
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Re: Fear
« Reply #33 on: December 08, 2009, 04:57:35 PM »
It's important to remember that the Fear spell and its effect are not normal fear, but a magical compulsion brought on by the spell or a monster's spell-like ability (e.g. a mummy's fear aura). It is not intended to be a representation of the normal human emotion, but instead a supernatural exaggeration/exacerbation of the emotion that overrides your PC's senses. The loss of control is due to the effect of the spell; the real problem lies in the pathfinding abilities of the engine, as HellsPanda said, because it your character ends up running in the wrong direction or ends up getting caught on something (be it a placeable or just part of the tileset like a rock on the floor or stuck in a corner).

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Rex

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Re: Fear
« Reply #34 on: December 08, 2009, 05:08:27 PM »
Mummy Aura I was almost positive Always rooted you in place.  Heh, I'd rather be frozen in place, then ping ponged down that crypt hallway.  :D

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Re: Fear
« Reply #35 on: December 08, 2009, 05:11:13 PM »
Mummy Aura I was almost positive Always rooted you in place.  Heh, I'd rather be frozen in place, then ping ponged down that crypt hallway.  :D

~Rex

correct, at least under 3.5 rules. The same for a bone golem's howl (which I made sure to change for this server)

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Knas

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Re: Fear
« Reply #36 on: December 08, 2009, 05:14:59 PM »
I don't see why you should get scared ooc which some of you make arguments about ;) It's just a game mechanic and I really don't see it hard at all to rp out the way it is. While it might not be 100% dnd accurate it serves it's purpose and I don't think there's a single person of you all who isn't accustomed with how the fear in nwn works. Besides it can be countered by a ton of spells including a level 1 spell, as well as several class abilities and potions or by simply getting more than 8 wisdom.

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Re: Fear
« Reply #37 on: December 08, 2009, 05:21:14 PM »
I'm all for scared.  I just lean towards the books, and don't really care if people lose their stuff and run away, if the end result is FAR BETTER STORY.  I've lost boatloads of stuff, it's not like it's difficult to replace a weapon, and a shield.  Granted the most coin I ever lost, was 143,000.  It took me three days to replace that, so again, no big deal.

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Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #38 on: December 08, 2009, 05:25:09 PM »
The Protection From spell is broken, because Bioware forgot, among many other things, to implement 30% of the spell...in essence "Protection vs. Neutral".

Therefore any PC or creature who is neutral basically bypasses a character's defense granted by protection/aura spells.

Yes, I'm quite well accustomed with how the fear in NwN works.  I'm stating how it "should" work, and that it could use a touch-up for our server.

The fear brought on by the "Fear" spell, or Aura's of fear is a mind-numbing fear that overrides all other actions and senses, and causes the frightened character to flee from anyone he does not consider allies.

Since the AI taking control of the PC was made what...8 years ago?  And the fact that it doesn't work (In some cases the feared character simply stands there and doesn't even run), and the character takes suicidal actions such as running headfirst into enemies when he shouldn't...

Keep the spell the same.  Just give the control to the player, and not some stupid AI.

The frustration of sitting back and watching your character die would be replaced by fear...trying desperately to get them out of that situation.

We love fear on this server, not frustration.

Cheers.

« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 05:28:26 PM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

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Re: Fear
« Reply #39 on: December 08, 2009, 05:31:50 PM »
I'd say that'd be a huge nerf to the spell, anyone can escape an npc's pathfinding by simply running, and the one thing the spell does is that it strips the player from his control, remove that and it's just a disarm. Besides at the top of my head at least, I can't think if a single NPC able to cast it in our module that isn't evil.

Rex

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Re: Fear
« Reply #40 on: December 08, 2009, 05:46:32 PM »
Freeze 'em!   *Drops all Gear, stands rooted to the spot in utter terror*

I vote Yea!

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LawfulJoe

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Re: Fear
« Reply #41 on: December 08, 2009, 05:49:37 PM »
Freeze 'em!   *Drops all Gear, stands rooted to the spot in utter terror*

I vote Yea!

~Rex

heh if this is the future of fear... I vote to leave it alone :P

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Re: Fear
« Reply #42 on: December 08, 2009, 05:53:41 PM »
The Protection From spell is broken, because Bioware forgot, among many other things, to implement 30% of the spell...in essence "Protection vs. Neutral".

Afaik, there's no Protection vs. Neutral. There's Prot vs. Law and Prot vs. Chaotic, though.

But they don't give total mind immunity, they protection from Compulsion and Charm spells. They also only last 1/min per level. For immunity to Mind spells, you use Clarity, or a high will save. Clarity isn't a long-lasting buff, so you have equipment to use it sparsely, not as a blanket immunity.

PfE as it is is substantially better than in PnP.

If anything, low-Will save classes have it well. There's no spell a Rogue can use to grant it immunity to all Fort saves, and no spell a Barbarian can use for immunity to most Reflex save spells.

Rex

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Re: Fear
« Reply #43 on: December 08, 2009, 06:24:50 PM »
Freeze 'em!   *Drops all Gear, stands rooted to the spot in utter terror*

I vote Yea!

~Rex

heh if this is the future of fear... I vote to leave it alone :P

I'd settle for a percentage chance compromise.  Seriously though, Stuff tangents make it pretty easy for me to find out who has "special gear" and who doesn't....heh.....Stuff, Means nothing.  Seriously it doesn't.  It's just Stuff, and losing stuff, certainly brings an element of fear.

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Re: Fear
« Reply #44 on: December 08, 2009, 08:54:24 PM »
The spell is not overpowered and I don't think the goal was ever to  "bring into balance." It is, infact, not used all that much by PC's in hostile situations. I have never had it used on me in the three + years of playing here. That's not to say it doesn't have its place, but I don't think the intent of this thread or those arguing for a change is in anyway oriented towards weakening. It is, I believe, simply a very poor implimentation. I think the floating skulls animation looks silly. I think getting stuck on corners is silly. I think running from a bonebat, which isn't blocked by PFE, into the main room of a lich and 20 + enemies is silly.

I'd also add that RPing the spell as it is is rare, because most players who are feared are to frustrated to dialogue or are simply content to let things take their course since all control is gone. I would much more inclined to RP it myself if I had some free reign with how to do so, and even being paralyzed is less of a death sentence than being pushed around for several minutes.

And you already drop weapons when you die, so that's not much of a change given that it's largely a death sentence anyhow.

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Re: Fear
« Reply #45 on: December 08, 2009, 11:16:50 PM »
It fears you and you stand there paralized forced...er um incouraged to rp that fear if the save is missed by alot. Missed by 5 or more you have control of the stearing but still must run, over 10 it could be the way it is now where you run random. How about that?

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Emomina

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Re: Fear
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2009, 10:01:01 AM »
The main problem I have always had with fear is the aura, gets triggered over and over with the enemies running away, so you will fail eventually... But 90% of the things that can fear you, you have a knowledge of what you are up against ahead of time.
The only time it happens that you dont have time to circumvent the fear ruining your battle is when a fear inducing creature is on the other side of the transition. Ghost Stags are one of the biggest culprits.
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ThAnswr

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Re: Fear
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2009, 10:10:29 AM »
Getting hit with a fear aura is one of those "kick yourself in the ***" moments because you forgot to take a cleric, potion, or scroll with you.  It's not like there's a great suprise what's around the corner, behind that door, or passed the next transition.   Hang around long enough and you're on a first name basis with the fear aura-er.   :mrgreen:

Btw, dare I mention it, but a paladin is immune to fear from level 2 on.  I'm surprised none of the "overpowered/underpowered/out of balance" folks haven't picked up on this obvious "overpowered/underpowered/out of balance" situation. 
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Rex

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Re: Fear
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2009, 10:38:01 AM »
The Immunity to Fear that Paladins get is one of their few things really.  I don't fault my favorite class for that.  What I will fault, are "Mechanic Builds" But then I fault munchkinisim and power building in every class.  Comparing them on a power scale isn't going to work, because they only compare directly to the other Warrior Classes, which all have their own advantages as well.  It's not on the same field of play, as the exponential power growth of any Caster.

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Re: Fear
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2009, 10:40:29 AM »
here is how i perceive fear from my Perspective.

i use the Spell Fear often in my horror scenes, and i can reflect that the lose of control is necessary. to often i run into players "who just dont grasp" the concept of horror, and fear more or less gets that point across. from my personal experience, horror can only be achieved when the victim player has no control over the situation/encounter, because all those who can challenge the situation for control, will do so (I.E. High level characters). fear is a loss of control and there for is a wonderful tool in my encounters. as with my domination ability, ive had people ignore its effects after the 30 second timer runs out. according to the P&P D&D description of the spell, the domination would last a number of days equal to the casters level (obviously unrealistic amount of time). 30 seconds isnt long enough to muster any amount of RP, and i have to rely on the players to RP out the effects longer. you would be amazed how many avoid/ignore it.

FYI: if the spell Fear is used on a player who is flagged Neutral, the recipient player will remain stationary and not "ping pong" around. however, it is against the rules to use hostile spells without flagging your opponent, but a lose of control while standing in place is one concept that could be considered.