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Author Topic: Fear  (Read 12459 times)

LadyDragn

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Re: Fear
« Reply #75 on: January 31, 2010, 12:20:37 PM »
Gotta agree with NB here, even in the corniest movies (black and white B-movies) the damsel who is terrified runs AWAY from the one causing her fear. Granted she's running in her nightgown down streets but she's still running away from the source not directly into its arms. That's not to say that Fear is broken, but it is a bit unrealistic, and lately it seems that things have been tweaked for more realism, so maybe if the Developers have time they can add this to the "realism" list. Even if frozen in fear (paralyzed) that would make more sense than running around into walls and/or into the mob.

Just my two cents on the matter. :)

Zarathustra217

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Re: Fear
« Reply #76 on: January 31, 2010, 02:43:35 PM »
I think the fear effect became bugged as per last update or the one before. I'll look at that. That's a different thing from wanting to revise the entire fear system though, as the original topic was about.

LoLJohnFerro

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Re: Fear
« Reply #77 on: January 31, 2010, 11:49:19 PM »
Can we also fix that if your feared and run into a transition you go threw it... not stand in it forever and sigh holding your head in your hands as what ever feared you delivers a slow and agonizing death?

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #78 on: February 02, 2010, 02:01:11 AM »
If the player is given control of their PC, not being able to make any other options other to run and click...that's entirely possible.

Then maybe peple won't be throwing their hands up in frustration when they're feared.
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Pepchko

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Re: Fear
« Reply #79 on: February 02, 2010, 02:26:56 AM »
this is how i perceive the NWN Fear spell

[youtube=425,350]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ab1ueRvygqc&feature=related[/youtube]

running around into things that kill ya happens. specially in a World Like Ravenloft where there are many creatures that "want" to kill ya like Jason Voorhees.


the Fear spell is the Game engines way of Portraying Fear Mechanically. thats why allot of Creatures have "fear Auras", and also why the response is to run away from them in a panic. i think the spell is just fine as it is really. butchering the mechanics doesn't seem necessary to me.

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #80 on: February 02, 2010, 03:42:49 AM »
That's a fine enough analogy, except that's not how the spell works.  -Initiailly- the character might run away from whatever it is, but eventually the poor engine takes over and the character will just run around randomly.  I've described panic and frightened definitions as they're used in PnP in previous posts.

Vincent feared Leon one time, and at one point he actually ran -towards- Vincent and then I sent you an OOC tell joking about it.  That's what I mean.

As for the movie clip,  I'm sorry to say I never did like the Halloween movies personally.  They were predictable and frustrating to watch from a horror buff's perspective.  If you watch the camera angles just before the guy gets killed, somehow "Jason" manages to disappear from  chasing behind the guy, circles around him without being seen in his peripheral view, nor by you the viewer with a clear view of the forest behind the victim.  Jason appears somehow regardless coming from the opposite direction and kills him with the Weedwhacker.  Simply walking the whole time.

Yay... :facepalm:

As for the positive of the movie clip, yes that's how fear should be...with the victim always running -away- from the thing that initially caused the fear...possibly falling or stumbling because of the vividness of the fear effect.

It would be nice if the control was given to the player, but at the same time they would randomly be prone to dex or discipline checks to remain afoot from running away.  This would give the player behind the screen a sense of actually being a victim as it were in such a horror movie, having their PC flee for safety and occiasionally falling making the player think "Oh, come on...get up, get up!"  There'd be a sense of terror instead of the player leaning back in their chair and watching their PC make stupid decisions to PURPOSEFULLY (due to poor game mechanics) get themselves killed.

I think this would be a great idea, and would enhance the feeling of fear on the server...the fear spell itself would promote FEAR instead of FRUSTRATION.

What are other people's thoughts on this idea?

« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 03:46:04 AM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

LadyDragn

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Re: Fear
« Reply #81 on: February 02, 2010, 03:46:53 AM »
I like it :)

Budly

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Re: Fear
« Reply #82 on: February 02, 2010, 04:06:12 AM »
Fear is not fine the way it is


      *
I----    ----I
     I  I

That is a entry to a room, the dot is you. The big evil thing scares the hell out of you and...

I*        I
I---   ----I
    I  I


And suddenly you stand over there, even if the corridor was behind you. Right! That makes you leave the source of fear. Running against a wall is madness :)

But clearly, It would proably be to much work to change it.

Delete Me

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Re: Fear
« Reply #83 on: February 02, 2010, 04:19:12 AM »
Eh- Making it any other way makes the spell redundant.

May as well just give you increased movement speed, and dazed, but make you glow or something... 

Then again, relies on DM enforcement to make sure you're running around screaming like a maimed git. xD
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Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #84 on: February 02, 2010, 12:56:56 PM »
All one must do is hit v w w in succession and call out for help.  The player then can start running their PC in the opposite direction, incurring random checks so as not to stumble, or get up quickly from stumbling.

It would be great RP for the victim of the spell to actually be able to RP as a victim.

Again, other's thoughts?  :D
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

LadyDragn

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Re: Fear
« Reply #85 on: February 02, 2010, 01:02:52 PM »
I'm sure there is some way to trigger the voiceset without even hitting the v w w.

Kind of like how it triggers when you're encumbered. I like the theory of Aldarris' idea. Allow the PC to "only run away" and not any other action, and while under the effect the voice set "Help" triggers. *shrugs*

shadymerchant

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Re: Fear
« Reply #86 on: February 02, 2010, 03:46:10 PM »
Eh- Making it any other way makes the spell redundant.

May as well just give you increased movement speed, and dazed, but make you glow or something... 

Then again, relies on DM enforcement to make sure you're running around screaming like a maimed git. xD

I think increased movement speed would be good, and hilarious. As a result of adreneline those feared run around at 150% while monsters stumble in their wake.

DM Nocturne

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Re: Fear
« Reply #87 on: February 02, 2010, 03:57:56 PM »
Not everyone reacts to fear in the same way. So to attempt to script it appropriately would be difficult.

Also you would expect fear induced by magic not to have the same effect as one would be affected by morale failure. So maybe it makes sense for an illogical response? (e.g. someone to run into a wall or corner and claw at it.)

Personally I wouldn't trust others to roleplay out the fear if you gave control while under the spell.

Still sticking to my previous suggestion:

I'm not convinced that allowing people to control their characters will result in them roleplaying the effects of Fear at all when it comes to PvP situations, instead they're likely just opting to keep fighting.

The aim I'm seeing is that you're trying to avoid characters standing still while getting beaten up or running into more enemies and getting beaten up. So, fear possibly could:

 :arrow: Allow control;
 :arrow: -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks (as per panicked description);
 :arrow: Significant percentage of spell failure;
 :arrow: Significant penalty to AB.

With a good -15 to AB, and a 100% spell failure, I would be for this, actually.

Gives me the control to run -where- I want to run, because it makes fighting useless.

Perhaps this way allows freedom to the player but with restrictions.

Little Lotte

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Re: Fear
« Reply #88 on: February 02, 2010, 04:42:09 PM »
Eh- Making it any other way makes the spell redundant.

May as well just give you increased movement speed, and dazed, but make you glow or something... 

Then again, relies on DM enforcement to make sure you're running around screaming like a maimed git. xD

I think increased movement speed would be good, and hilarious. As a result of adreneline those feared run around at 150% while monsters stumble in their wake.


ROFLMAO

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #89 on: February 02, 2010, 05:19:35 PM »
Zealot, I'm two thumbs up for your idea.
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Minstrel

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Re: Fear
« Reply #90 on: February 02, 2010, 05:53:29 PM »
Problem with the -15 AB and 100% failure:

Fighter gets hit with Fear.

Slaps up Expertise/Improved Expertise.

Continues to hold the line fine with huge AC and allows his teammates to keep using ranged attacks.

The purpose of the Fear mechanic is to break the line, to remove from Fighters their ability to clot up enemies around them whilst archers and mages pick them off. This change removes that ability.

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #91 on: February 02, 2010, 06:09:20 PM »
Lower dodge AC by half, or make it next to nothing, and much like we have in ghost form, potions, items, skills, and feats cannot be used while under the fear effect.

Characters fumbling, shaking too much to use an item.  Not thinking clearly so "Fight or Flight" is their only option (Fight being rather impossible with the magically induced fear, and penalties thereof)

The character might move maybe 50% faster being panicked, and having a temporary adrenaline rush...but suffers dex or discipline checks randomly every few rounds to reflect how afraid they are, prone to make mistakes, slip and fall.

Fighters could stay in this position, but they'd most likely die, and even if they stay to fight say...a bonebat, they're not going to be much use with -15 AB, half their dodge AC gone, and randomly falling every few rounds.

Thus, the line would get broken (Credit to Minstrel), players can enjoy RPing being fearful, the "Help me!" emote could come up when they become Feared (Thank you, DragonMystique), and the server-wide frustration that the poorly implemented Fear spell causes is gone, replaced with a great addition of horror that makes our server even more unique and enjoyable for everyone.

Problem solved.

Keep the ideas coming guys, and I'll keep putting stuff together.  Thoughts on this idea?  Maybe some input from the Dev Team on whether this can be accomplished or not (I'm pretty sure it can)

 :thumbup: :thumbup:
« Last Edit: February 02, 2010, 06:15:56 PM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Minstrel

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Re: Fear
« Reply #92 on: February 09, 2010, 12:28:00 PM »
The catch 22 here:

Not lowering AC and allowing you to retain control stops the need to run thanks to Improved Expertise. (Lowing AC by a huge 10 points means Imp Expertise would negate that and allow you to remain tanking. Hence you'd need a ridiculous reduction for it to be effective.)

Lowering AC enough so that it would force you to run makes you a magnet for all ranged attacks and all attacks before you realise you got feared. Furthermore, if you get Feared along with any movement-inhibiting effect (Entangle, Web, Paralysis, Grease, Stun, Encumberance from Str Damage etc etc) you're buggered anyway, since this would mean you lose a huge amount of AC, and can't even flee your combat if you wanted to.

Strife

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Re: Fear
« Reply #93 on: February 09, 2010, 01:50:27 PM »
Perhaps I am a bit old school here but fear and it's effects are best served by our imagination. Fear is a powerful emotion, not one that can be "automated". Having a generic response (running away) defeats the concept of a basic method of survival ( I speak to fear and it's relation to PVP & PVM not the spell)
Fear is a source of strength for some, but could also be an achillies heel for others. Fear could manifest itself as strength in the weakest of beings but at the same paralyze the strongest. Should fear ( I would add terror to the discussion) not be roleplayed but instead the result of a universally determined outcome then really only the story which we are all here for is the only thing that suffers.

Strife

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #94 on: February 09, 2010, 02:04:22 PM »
I hate to give the Dev teams another task, as they're always swamped, but this would REALLY benefit our server entirely.  Especially new players who are struck with "fear" for the first time and realize "Hey, I have control...but my character is terrified...I can actually -ROLEPLAY- Fear!!  This is great!"

If necessary, I'll compile all the good ideas for new affects and send them in to the Dev team.  Thanks for reading my thread!

Cheers.
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Minstrel

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Re: Fear
« Reply #95 on: February 09, 2010, 08:16:45 PM »
No matter what it can't be perfect, sadly.

Any system that trusts the player to RP fear will be either exploitable, or broken in different contexts.

My best suggestion for this would be to have someone who is suffering from Fear alternate between the game controlling their movement, and them controlling movement, every round. For example: You get feared, run away in NWN fear for six seconds, have six seconds of control, and another six seconds of NWN fear, six seconds of control, and so on until the Fear ends one way or the others.

It'd give you a chance to get out of stupid situations like running into a wall, but make engaging in combat once again futile, since as soon as you'd gotten back to the monster you'd be losing control and running away in fear again, which retains the purpose of the Fear mechanic - stopping the tank from tanking.

Not sure how easy that would be to implement, though.

Strife

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Re: Fear
« Reply #96 on: February 09, 2010, 08:36:55 PM »
No matter what it can't be perfect, sadly.

Any system that trusts the player to RP fear will be either exploitable, or broken in different contexts.

I hate to point out that it has worked in the past and did not require any scripting. Fear has been roleplayed quite succesfully for over fours years since the server went beta, with a few exceptions here and there.
Some of my most memerobile events as a player and a DM have involved those players who accept their PC's mortality, fear and weaknesses.


HellsPanda

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Re: Fear
« Reply #97 on: February 09, 2010, 08:48:46 PM »
Minstrel didn't say it doesn't happen, he said its exploitable [some people might abuse it]... there is an intergalactic ocean of difference

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Re: Fear
« Reply #98 on: February 09, 2010, 10:16:22 PM »
No matter what it can't be perfect, sadly.

Any system that trusts the player to RP fear will be either exploitable, or broken in different contexts.

I hate to point out that it has worked in the past and did not require any scripting. Fear has been roleplayed quite succesfully for over fours years since the server went beta, with a few exceptions here and there.
Some of my most memerobile events as a player and a DM have involved those players who accept their PC's mortality, fear and weaknesses.


that's completely different from the magical spell, Strife. ;)

The discussion really isn't about roleplay, it's about how the NWN engine attempts to replicate the effects of the magical spell. The effects of the spell are generally universal. The real problem is the engine's pathfinding is not the best and a character that fails their save ends up running towards the caster of the spell/effect or gets stuck in a corner.

I'd be for a way to improve the pathfinding if possible, everything else suggested in this thread seems far more complicated than it needs to be.

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Chrisman888

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Re: Fear
« Reply #99 on: February 09, 2010, 10:18:06 PM »
If we could set it up for the person to bolt to the nearest exit farthest from hostiles. That would be nice.



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