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Author Topic: Fear  (Read 12425 times)

ThAnswr

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Re: Fear
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2009, 10:57:10 AM »
here is how i perceive fear from my Perspective.

i use the Spell Fear often in my horror scenes, and i can reflect that the lose of control is necessary. to often i run into players "who just dont grasp" the concept of horror, and fear more or less gets that point across. from my personal experience, horror can only be achieved when the victim player has no control over the situation/encounter, because all those who can challenge the situation for control, will do so (I.E. High level characters). fear is a loss of control and there for is a wonderful tool in my encounters. as with my domination ability, ive had people ignore its effects after the 30 second timer runs out. according to the P&P D&D description of the spell, the domination would last a number of days equal to the casters level (obviously unrealistic amount of time). 30 seconds isnt long enough to muster any amount of RP, and i have to rely on the players to RP out the effects longer. you would be amazed how many avoid/ignore it.

FYI: if the spell Fear is used on a player who is flagged Neutral, the recipient player will remain stationary and not "ping pong" around. however, it is against the rules to use hostile spells without flagging your opponent, but a lose of control while standing in place is one concept that could be considered.



:clap:

Your perspective, in my opinion, is one of the best as it relates to Fear. 
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Rex

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Re: Fear
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2009, 11:16:50 AM »
It's not that they don't Grasp Fear.  They Grasp it, look at the sheer reaction you get from the masses when you point out, they could lose their Longbow and their money.

It's that they don't WANT, to be afraid of anyone.  Unfortunately, Horror Checks aren't a functional part of the automated functions of POTM.  Still, DM's can easily solve that issue as well.

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Knas

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Re: Fear
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2009, 11:40:01 AM »
Problem with horror check is that it's hard to create a functional mechanic for it. Having to monitor someone 24/7 to make sure they uphold their horror status is a lot of work :(

herkles

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Re: Fear
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2009, 12:06:52 PM »
here is how i perceive fear from my Perspective.

i use the Spell Fear often in my horror scenes, and i can reflect that the lose of control is necessary. to often i run into players "who just dont grasp" the concept of horror, and fear more or less gets that point across. from my personal experience, horror can only be achieved when the victim player has no control over the situation/encounter, because all those who can challenge the situation for control, will do so (I.E. High level characters). fear is a loss of control and there for is a wonderful tool in my encounters. as with my domination ability, ive had people ignore its effects after the 30 second timer runs out. according to the P&P D&D description of the spell, the domination would last a number of days equal to the casters level (obviously unrealistic amount of time). 30 seconds isnt long enough to muster any amount of RP, and i have to rely on the players to RP out the effects longer. you would be amazed how many avoid/ignore it.

FYI: if the spell Fear is used on a player who is flagged Neutral, the recipient player will remain stationary and not "ping pong" around. however, it is against the rules to use hostile spells without flagging your opponent, but a lose of control while standing in place is one concept that could be considered.

That is a great view point, and one I agree with. Fear is a neat spell, to lose control is frightening. And one has to remember this is not the normal fear emotion but magical fear. Fear that is beyond what a normal person understands, thus the erratic movement.

Rex

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Re: Fear
« Reply #54 on: December 09, 2009, 12:08:40 PM »
As it is now, the no control thing isn't frightening.  It's just annoying.  Have them drop all their gear like they are supposed to, THAT, will scare the bejeezus out of folk.

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Chrisman888

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Re: Fear
« Reply #55 on: December 09, 2009, 12:10:57 PM »
Problem with horror check is that it's hard to create a functional mechanic for it. Having to monitor someone 24/7 to make sure they uphold their horror status is a lot of work :(

DM once did a horror check for me and now I am scared of water and have nightmares of drowning. In my personal experience that horror check was great! I don't really need 24/7 DM to monitor me. I just do the RP myself and the PC's around me, react towards it. (IE: Resting then waking up in sweats, raced heart, ect). Let's see some more Horror checks! Possibly more ones that a player can RP without a DM and doesn't "cripple" there character to much.

Really, no one wants to RP something they really don't enjoy. I even think players should be talked to before the check, asking them something that would fit there character more and if they will enjoy RPing it.


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Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #56 on: December 09, 2009, 01:31:42 PM »
Points that I do not necessarily agree with are underlined.

Quote
i use the Spell Fear often in my horror scenes, and i can reflect that the lose of control is necessary. to often i run into players "who just dont grasp" the concept of horror, and fear more or less gets that point across. from my personal experience, horror can only be achieved when the victim player has no control over the situation/encounter, because all those who can challenge the situation for control, will do so (I.E. High level characters). fear is a loss of control and there for is a wonderful tool in my encounters. as with my domination ability, ive had people ignore its effects after the 30 second timer runs out. according to the P&P D&D description of the spell, the domination would last a number of days equal to the casters level (obviously unrealistic amount of time). 30 seconds isnt long enough to muster any amount of RP, and i have to rely on the players to RP out the effects longer. you would be amazed how many avoid/ignore it.

From my experience, you cannot really begin to try to force RP, even horror roleplay on anyone...it can be frustrating for the other player.  There are many factors that might influence why that certain player "Just doesn't grasp" the concept of horror. They could be a younger player, or they might not really be here for the horror aspect of our server...that is alright.

Loss of control is not necessary to induce horror.  Horror is being placed in a situation that will induce fear and panic, most often because there is opportunity for loss-of-life.  However, (And not singling anyone out when I say this) no player has the right to force any amount of roleplay onto another player, so therefore it would be better that the CHARACTER loses control, not the player.

I admit that a certain degree of loss of control can generate fear.  But when a player completely loses control of what can be done with THEIR character, that creates FRUSTRATION and not horror or fear.  I guarantee you even if they can still move around 90% of the characters under the effects are going to experience fear, and their players as well.

Horror can often be achieved when the other player has control of the situation.  Take Destiny's werewolf for example.  Everyone who encounters it has control.  They can either run, or stand their ground...most who do the latter tend to become a spot on the ground.  Going up against something large and nearly unstoppable that wants to rip you apart is horror...and there is no loss of control.

When I played Vicho Cain, I would attack the outskirts a few times.  Usually I would give fair warning that he was there, and those that didn't want to participate would run inside.  Those who stayed faced PKs, fireballs and magic missles, and after casting a few spells hasted I would go invisible and hide, then move to avoid being shredded.  Going up against a methodical villian who is clever and cunning is horror...and there is no loss of control.

When I played out my torture scenes with Vicho Cain, my victim always got a tell beforehand and in most cases I even asked them ahead of them if they'd be for this type of RP.  Most were excited.  He would proceed to strap them down on his machine and wake them up (They could break free with a high strength roll).  He would proceed to torture them, cut them open, play with their insides, and fill them with worms...etc.  In this case, there was a loss of control...but for the PC...and NOT for the player.

A high-level, as you put it isn't necessarily attempting to control a situation if they move to defy your PC, whom is a high level sorcerer.  There could be any number of reasons why they would confront you.  You have many tools at your disposal being a vampire, and as so horror would be somehow making those high-level characters feel powerless to stop you...not attempting to detract them from the situation entirely based on their level.

As for 30 seconds not being enough time to generate RP, I find that statement to be false.  When Vicho would dominate someone, I would have an emote ready to fire off.  Something along the line of a soothing voice, and having them unsheath their blade and turn it on themselves.  Or, if there was a friend present I would have them draw the sword and stalk menacingly towards them.  All this could be done in 30 seconds, and generates roleplay which will unfold even AFTER the spell duration subsides.

The point of my post here is that despite anything that is going on screen, it is up to the player to feel fear based on what is going on.  Some people will feel it, some won't, but you can't ever attempt to force any degree of RP on another player.  You can only be suggestive about it.  That being said, replacing the horrible mechanic for a player's control over their character will still initiate fear into those players who want to feel afraid.  But in all cases the factor of frustration will be gone, as it should be.

Cheers.
« Last Edit: December 10, 2009, 12:58:34 AM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Minstrel

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Re: Fear
« Reply #57 on: December 09, 2009, 02:28:47 PM »
Are you suggesting we actually get rid of every effect that causes people to lose control of their character?

That's all the stun effects from evocation spells, Bigbys ones included, possibly knockdowns, any spell abilities from monsters that do that, the grappling of those lovable gelatinous cubes, and pretty much the entirety of the Enchantment school.

Losing control of your character is a common part of DnD, just as much as counters to these things are. Compare two level 5 spells:

Slay Living

Dominate Person.

Fail the save of one of them: Lose control to the mage who cast it.

Fail the save of the other: You are dead. Go directly to the Fugue Plane. Do not pass Kelemvor. Do not collect two hundred fang.

Both allow a saving throw against the effects, and spells that give immunity to the effect accessible by potions or items freely available. So what makes losing control of your character so bad in comparison to being dead?

DM Nocturne

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Re: Fear
« Reply #58 on: December 09, 2009, 02:45:34 PM »
Maybe people should stop being insecure and protective over their characters when they temporarily lose the ability to move them the way they want. Perhaps then it wouldn't be frustrating.

Jus' let ze game flo', mon.

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #59 on: December 09, 2009, 04:49:00 PM »
Well, the only real thing I agree with is hold person.  The purpose of the spell is to immobolize your character.  So are the bigby's spells, with the higher ones having some damage thrown in. Fear's purpose is to create a state of panic in the character, which due to the insanely stupid AI just causes them to bounce around and ping pong aimlessly, or when it does not work stand there for no apparent reason.

And under the spell dominate person the players are still in control, just following orders based on what the caster says.  Everything except for self-destructing orders are carried out.

No, I'm not suggesting we actually get rid of every effect that causes people to lose control of their character, as that would be a stupid idea.

I stated that losing control wasn't necessary to induce horror.

I'm just saying the Fear spell is idiotic as it is and could use a touchup.

Hold person in the D&D universe:

Hold Person
Enchantment (Compulsion) [Mind-Affecting]
Level:   Brd 2, Clr 2, Sor/Wiz 3
Components:    V, S, F/DF
Casting time:    1 standard action
Range:    Medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target:    One humanoid creature
Duration:    1 round/level (D); see text
Saving Throw:   Will negates; see text
Spell Resistance:    Yes

The subject becomes paralyzed and freezes in place. It is aware and breathes normally but cannot take any actions, even speech. Each round on its turn, the subject may attempt a new saving throw to end the effect. (This is a full-round action that does not provoke attacks of opportunity.)

Bigby's:

Forceful Hand
Evocation [Force]
Level:   Sor/Wiz 6
Components:    V, S, F

This spell functions like interposing hand, except that the forceful hand pursues and pushes away the opponent that you designate. Treat this attack as a bull rush with a +14 bonus on the Strength check (+8 for Strength 27, +4 for being Large, and a +2 bonus for charging, which it always gets). The hand always moves with the opponent to push that target back the full distance allowed, and it has no speed limit. Directing the spell to a new target is a move action.
A very strong creature could not push the hand out of its way because the latter would instantly reposition itself between the creature and you, but an opponent could push the hand up against you by successfully bull rushing it.

Great spell, if it was implemented right as well.  Take notice the target is pushed backwards unless succeeding the bull-rush, not being knocked down senseless until the spell ends.

EDIT: To even make a revamp of the fear spell greater...occasionally give the victim a discipline check simulating that they trip and fall because they are so frightened trying to get away.  This will enhance the fear, and even if the player has control of the character's movements they could possibly fall, letting opponents catch up to them.

Genius.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 05:17:44 PM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Bad_Bud

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Re: Fear
« Reply #60 on: December 09, 2009, 06:03:09 PM »
Uhh, to go off topic:

Speaking of the bull rush spell, I realize it has already been weakened by the addition of the reflex saving throw.  However, the saving throw is still nearly impossible to make for non-rogue characters.  I think it should be altered so that freedom of movement would counter this spell.  Currently it's a stun and a knockdown, both of which can't be countered by anything (you can prevent the stun but you stay knocked down).

Purist

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Re: Fear
« Reply #61 on: December 09, 2009, 06:42:57 PM »
I believe I've understood what Aldarris suggested primarily. He wants to bring RP and survivalism to somebody under Fear. He is not saying that the spell should have it's effects removed. Of course, he does ask for one thing to be removed, the stupid run amok attitude that a PC may go under the effects of fear. He suggests that the player under the effect of fear, start to role play his escape by properly running away from the foe, instead of becoming stuck on pillars or wall corners as it happen. I like the idea.

My idea of what fear should be is: Creatures with fear will try to escape, if escape is not possible, they'll fight for their life, with penalties. Those penalties in NWN, if I remember right, affect will and attack rolls. But I personally think that the penalties for Will should be greater, and instead of having penalties for their attack rolls, creatures under fear instead could gain bonuses to their attack rolls, why? They're cornered, wetting their pants and will do anything to save their life. Of course also a minor AC penalty could be applied in this case.

Another idea, somebody casting fear against another(let's call it X) -that if PC control is not lost- and "X" fails the save and becomes scared, this event could trigger a DC, if the fear spell caster rolled a D100 and scored 90 or more, X could instead of scared become terrorized, therefore dropping his equipment(maybe not) and then running amok without player control.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2009, 06:45:21 PM by Frog »

solgursky

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Re: Fear
« Reply #62 on: December 09, 2009, 09:09:51 PM »
Okay, I'm a newbie but I have an idea on this.
To make people RP fear, instead of having the 'fear effect' kick in, is what we want, right?
So, give the player incentive to run/be scared.
Under the effects of fear, reduce HP (Constitution to 6, or something appropriate) and AC (-10, or set at 10, or other appropriate idea), make 100% spell failure.
That way the character is entirely exposed, the player behind the character will do everything possible to escape the situation.
Loudo Whitefield

Purist

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Re: Fear
« Reply #63 on: December 09, 2009, 10:23:06 PM »
I give:

'No' to reduce HP.
'Yes' to spell failure.
'Maybe' to AC reduction.

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #64 on: December 10, 2009, 02:45:13 PM »
So how about it?  Is this something that can be tweaked a bit?  Again, my suggestion was to remove the ping-ponging AI, giving the control to the player, keeping fear otherwise the same, except maybe add a script that randomly makes a discipline check which failed would result in tripping/falling.
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Minstrel

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Re: Fear
« Reply #65 on: December 10, 2009, 03:22:59 PM »
Okay, I'm a newbie but I have an idea on this.
To make people RP fear, instead of having the 'fear effect' kick in, is what we want, right?
So, give the player incentive to run/be scared.
Under the effects of fear, reduce HP (Constitution to 6, or something appropriate) and AC (-10, or set at 10, or other appropriate idea), make 100% spell failure.
That way the character is entirely exposed, the player behind the character will do everything possible to escape the situation.

The problem with this is that it can be sort of ignored. Slapping Improved Expertise on would negate the AC penalty and allow you to remain in a fight.

You'd have to drop both AC and AB for it to be effecting, and still it dosen't force running. Many characters would be able to tank pretty decently even with -10 AC.

KoopaFanatic

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Re: Fear
« Reply #66 on: December 10, 2009, 04:35:48 PM »
Also, anything that drops Constitution is a very bad idea -- something like that could easily insta-kill an injured PC, which would be even more frustrating and pointless than dying because you're suddenly too exhausted to run away, or dying because chasing a fleeing werewolf suddenly makes you incur bunch of AoOs from the rest of the pack.

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #67 on: January 30, 2010, 11:33:04 PM »
Still could use fixing.
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

Delete Me

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Re: Fear
« Reply #68 on: January 31, 2010, 12:24:00 AM »
I disagree.
Delete Me.

Pepchko

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Re: Fear
« Reply #69 on: January 31, 2010, 12:33:21 AM »
this topic is a dead horse, let it die


nakedxXbeauty

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Re: Fear
« Reply #70 on: January 31, 2010, 01:55:43 AM »
I disagree.


You seem to disagree with just about anything that people have to say.

Delete Me

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Re: Fear
« Reply #71 on: January 31, 2010, 02:52:17 AM »
[self-deleted]
Delete Me.

Bad_Bud

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Re: Fear
« Reply #72 on: January 31, 2010, 04:27:14 AM »
I disagree.


You seem to disagree with just about anything that people have to say.

...not that I've seen.

Still could use fixing.

To say it needs 'fixing' implies it is broken, which it is not, it just may not be the flavor of fear that some want.
« Last Edit: January 31, 2010, 04:30:50 AM by Bad_Bud »

LoLJohnFerro

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Re: Fear
« Reply #73 on: January 31, 2010, 10:03:36 AM »
I disagree.


You seem to disagree with just about anything that people have to say.

...not that I've seen.

Still could use fixing.

To say it needs 'fixing' implies it is broken, which it is not, it just may not be the flavor of fear that some want.
Cant we all just be friends!, Also Fear has a few issues like the person will start to attack and even when injured not move...

nakedxXbeauty

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Re: Fear
« Reply #74 on: January 31, 2010, 12:04:11 PM »
If there is absolutely no chance that fear can be tweaked at all the thread should be locked and done with.  If there is a chance that it could be considered that the spell is a bit... off, that would be awesome. 

Just yesterday I was in a dungeon with two other players.  Two of us, myself included, had fear cast on us.  One of us ran directly at the enemy and died.... I stood there and continued to shoot them with arrows even though I was feared.  I don't know if that was a bug or not, but either way I just don't see how it makes sense for someone to be running INTO danger when they're scared poopless.  If the spell being used were "Confusion" then yeah, maybe it would make sense.  You do the most outrageous things during that spell, but come on... fear?  I know nothing about scripting or tweaking spells but it would make much more sense to me if a feared individual would run towards the exit of the dungeon instead of just run about aimlessly into the thing that actually caused the fear in them.