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Author Topic: Fear  (Read 11384 times)

Aldarris

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Fear
« on: December 07, 2009, 06:38:08 PM »
Fear definitely needs a nice little makeover.  Right now a character under the effects of fear will either:

1) run, until AoO something and beginning to attack as if it were not feared

2) Run away for a time, then find a corner to stay in

3) "Quickly friends, we are under the effects of fear so let's run -TOWARDS- the danger!"

4) Literally just stand there, letting themselves be surrounded and hacked away at until dead.

Now, this is the description of the Fear spell which is different than it is in normal D&D:

Description: Affected creatures are consumed with mind-numbing fear that overrides all other actions. The affected creatures run away from all those they do not consider allies.

Taken from the D&D Wikki:

Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:   Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components:    V, S, M
Casting time:    1 standard action
Range:    30 ft.
Area:    Cone-shaped burst
Duration:    1 round/level or 1 round; see text
Saving Throw:   Will partial
Spell Resistance:    Yes

An invisible cone of terror causes each living creature in the area to become panicked unless it succeeds on a Will save. If cornered, a panicked creature begins cowering. If the Will save succeeds, the creature is shaken for 1 round.


What being "panicked" entails:

A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a –2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers and does not attack, typically using the total defense action in combat. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

What being "frightened" (the effect you are under while under fear in NWN.  Click on the box and it says "Frightened") entails:

frightened creature flees from the source of its fear as best it can. If unable to flee, it may fight. A frightened creature takes a –2 penalty on all attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. A frightened creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Fear is not the spell dominate person, and even if it were the PC under it's affects would not be taking self-destructing actions like purposefully running into corners, or standing there and letting themselves be killed.  Right now it's much more effective with that in mind.

The fact that once Feared, the player loses complete control over their character is CHEESY, if you read over the rules of the server.  Bioware didn't put much thought or consideration into ridiculous things like this when they made the game.

It would be much more fun to be able to RP the effects of fear, rather than sitting back and watching your character do ridiculous things to get themselves killed while you throw up your hands in aggravation.
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HellsPanda

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Re: Fear
« Reply #1 on: December 07, 2009, 07:08:54 PM »
probably isnt much that can be done, considering how Bioware programing was done

would need a far more detailed pathing system, and if you dont loose controll some people are likely to just ignore the fact and beat down what every feared them.

also this discussion came up twice a week during the time we had mummies in the ML crypts, considering how easy it is too protect against mind effecting spells, don't see it is worth the effort to change it. But thats just me

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Re: Fear
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2009, 07:24:01 PM »
- For MPCs it's a valuable RP tool, is why?

Pepchko

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Re: Fear
« Reply #3 on: December 07, 2009, 07:51:26 PM »
its a very useful spell. i use it often to capture Fear in the other player. i dont see the point of your post though, Fear can still be Rped out while the effect is in place, if there was no mechanic, and only had to rely on others RP, then we run the chance of people ignoring the spell completely. the spell is working fine, losing control of your character does generate fear oocly, so even if its not "Perfectly" according to the spell description in the handbook, it still is working as intended.

people tend to forget that Neverwinter Nights is a "real time" game engine. meaning that, what works for P&P will not always translate accurately in a game engine. there must be a compromise between the two. which in this case, i think we have.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 07:53:55 PM by Stravokov »

Dhark

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Re: Fear
« Reply #4 on: December 07, 2009, 07:53:28 PM »
Fear may take many forms , the spell reflects that quite well , its just the lame description that needs altering.

Play CoC a bit and you'll be amazed at the myriad of forms fear can take.


Kendric98

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Re: Fear
« Reply #5 on: December 07, 2009, 07:54:38 PM »
Myself i would prefer if it informed the player they were feared and it became there resonsibility at that point to rp the fear.

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Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #6 on: December 07, 2009, 08:01:38 PM »
No, losing control of your character creates frustration and aggravation...not fear.  Fear is not knowing what's going to happen.  Frustration is knowing what's going to happen, and having no ability to do anything about it.

Revise the spell.  If possible let the player control how the PC is going to run or flee, which makes much more sense.  Make sure that in the state, they cannot use spells, abilities, or any form of offense, and in that way it will work even better than it is now.  A character who is frightened or panicked is going to run from what's coming at them, especially if it's backed up with other nasty things.  They're going to flee, as per the spell's description, and common sense considering if afraid, you're going to be all about self-preservation and survival...not stand there and get killed, or lay down and die.

Maybe if you rolled a one, you'd be so overcome with fear that you'd -want- to die, but that's besides the point...
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 08:05:34 PM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

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Re: Fear
« Reply #7 on: December 07, 2009, 08:10:24 PM »
I do not think that demanding the spell to be revised is going to help things.

I think the effect of fear is irritating to be in, because it usually results in death. However, thats just part of it..  You challenged something much bigger and badder than you, and were overcome with fear.  You ran, till you were pinned, and died.   Think of that effect as the morale system for players, hehe.

We get to take advantage of the ones that have no where else to run.. and.. well.. they get to take advantage of those of us, that have no where to run.
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LawfulJoe

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Re: Fear
« Reply #8 on: December 07, 2009, 08:43:19 PM »
Maybe we could add to it... some pop up texts while you lose control of your PC.

"Fear grips your soul, you lose control of your bowls and soil yourself"

"A yellow puddle pools at your feet as your mind is seized with fear like you have never known"

"MOMMY!"

as a few suggestions  :lol:

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Re: Fear
« Reply #9 on: December 07, 2009, 09:02:37 PM »
No, losing control of your character creates frustration and aggravation...not fear.  Fear is not knowing what's going to happen.  Frustration is knowing what's going to happen, and having no ability to do anything about it.

I wouldn't be so quick to say how players react 100% of the time. IMO frustration results from expecting to be able to do something casually and not being able to. Just don't expect to achieve anything when you're facing down something capable to affect you.

I don't think you should expect people to roleplay out how you predict them to, either. A number of times in the past people just didn't get it.

 :twocents:

shadymerchant

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Re: Fear
« Reply #10 on: December 07, 2009, 10:36:55 PM »
I've always thought the fear spell could be better implimented. While it is easy to protect against the spell itself, the aura can be problematic, especially in regards to alignment types and actually having the right protection. Once under the effect, it's pretty much game over, especially when you are being chased by an aura that will just retrigger the effect until death comes. Also, the whole running from hapless fear causing creature into twenty murderous enemies can be frustrating. I'd suggest something more random in the effect. Maybe you run, maybe you're paralyzed, or some other action that speaks of being terrified.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2009, 10:39:55 PM by shadymerchant »

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Re: Fear
« Reply #11 on: December 07, 2009, 11:04:49 PM »
So you'd be literally paralyzed with fear, interesting idea!

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Re: Fear
« Reply #12 on: December 07, 2009, 11:24:22 PM »
Another ravenloft set server used a system that allowed for such things as shaken where you would have decreased ab but still be able to decide if you wanted to fight or flight.  Utter fear led to paralysis where the pc was unable to move or react having been frozen with fear.  It was an interesting system with about four possible results/reactions to 'fear', very interesting system and certainly one which felt a bit more realistic than being feared and just running willy nilly into inevitably worse situations than the one that caused the fright to begin with.


I could just run into the room and punch you in the balls; sure, that's scary. That's entertainment. But it isn't horror...

LoLJohnFerro

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Re: Fear
« Reply #13 on: December 07, 2009, 11:51:09 PM »
I think that it should allow partiail control over your char like you can choose what direction you run in and allow you to open and slam doors.
beacuse in which you run at the closed door then along a wall to a cornor and stay feared even if said creature is dead is quite annoying.

ethinos

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Re: Fear
« Reply #14 on: December 08, 2009, 02:57:19 AM »
I do not think that demanding the spell to be revised is going to help things.

I think the effect of fear is irritating to be in, because it usually results in death. However, thats just part of it..  You challenged something much bigger and badder than you, and were overcome with fear.  You ran, till you were pinned, and died.   Think of that effect as the morale system for players, hehe.

We get to take advantage of the ones that have no where else to run.. and.. well.. they get to take advantage of those of us, that have no where to run.

I think I understand what Aldarris is talking about, and it is not the helplessness of Fear itself, but the stupidity of the game engine when engulfed with Fear. If you are above ground, you will flee usually in a straight line away from danger. This is not really an issue in a metagame sense and we can deal with it. However, when you are underground, like in the crypts before the mummies went on a permanent vacation, the amount of corners, walls, and other physical obstructions would often leave you stuck in a spot that your character was doomed to inhabit until enemy AoO's did them in. This is not reasonable, because your character wouldn't behave this way if it wasn't for the god-awful game engine pathfinding system. I'd rather have the character run as sensibly as possible towards the exit to remove themselves from harm's way.

I'd rather see a spell that automatically makes you flee from the immediate vicinity of the character as per the Fear spell already implemented (unless maybe a save caused you to freeze up as per a paralyze spell as mentioned, which would be interesting). After a certain (either random or predetermined) distance, the character again falls under your control but is unable to attack or cast spells (100% chance of failure), and really needs to find a place to recover from the fright, or simply high-tail back to town. This gives the user some control over roleplaying the Fear while being completely ineffective in a combative sense. To me, the lack of control, even towards a negative end, is horrible for me to contemplate.

We have this idea that we do not enforce roleplaying on another, but the standard Fear spell sort of enforces this (even if it is the game engine rather than any of the powers that be). Now, I have no idea how hard it will be to alter the spell, if even possible, but this is the only spell that completely frustrates me as a roleplayer, with maybe the exception of Confusion. And that is another topic for another day.
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Zarathustra217

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Re: Fear
« Reply #15 on: December 08, 2009, 03:58:04 AM »
Well, I'm not necessarily disagreeing with allowing more control to the player, but changing the spell to cause you to drop what you have in your hand will certainly make it much more powerful...

ThAnswr

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Re: Fear
« Reply #16 on: December 08, 2009, 09:41:52 AM »
In RL, people get paralyzed and do the most asinine things due to fear all the time.  It's the basis of the "deer in the headlights" look.  People watch moving trains come at them.  People watch moving cars come at them.  People also faint with fear.  The colorful description would be not knowing whether to "**** or go blind."  (See spolier)

Spoiler: show
sh*t or go blind


The idea that "everyone runs for safety when afraid" is, in my opinion, primarily based on one's desire for a spell change and not reality.  

If one wishes to see "fear" expressed in a real way in a fictitious land in a PW game, that fear would be expressed as fainting, freezing, running wildly OR running purposefully.  There would be no choice and would be based on the luck of the roll as none of us know what we do when faced with a pack of mummies.

Now that would be a spell change that reflects reality.  





 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 09:50:29 AM by ThAnswr »
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Re: Fear
« Reply #17 on: December 08, 2009, 10:39:40 AM »
Most fear saves are Will-based.

Most will-based effects, Fear included, can be happily negated with a cheap Dream Catcher, PfE, Clarity Spell, you name it.

Also, Hold Person is a lower Spell level than Fear with comparable durations (Though Fear is AoE), and I'd rather be Feared than Held, since one of them lets me have some chance at running away.

The spell is fine, the ability is fine, and the effect is fine. Mind-effecting spells are so ridiculously easy to counter, I'm actually for -buffing- them (Nerfing Clarity and PfE). More Enchanters with Hold Spells would be a nice thing.




Emomina

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Re: Fear
« Reply #18 on: December 08, 2009, 11:34:42 AM »
Fear is nothing to be modified. It works just as intended. And this is coming from a player of epicly low will save characters.  Potion of Clarity, abber dream catcher,  scroll PfE, scroll of clarity.  Stock up on them for when the spell is not available in the party.

Bad_Bud

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Re: Fear
« Reply #19 on: December 08, 2009, 02:05:39 PM »
Most fear saves are Will-based.

Most will-based effects, Fear included, can be happily negated with a cheap Dream Catcher, PfE, Clarity Spell, you name it.

Also, Hold Person is a lower Spell level than Fear with comparable durations (Though Fear is AoE), and I'd rather be Feared than Held, since one of them lets me have some chance at running away.

The spell is fine, the ability is fine, and the effect is fine. Mind-effecting spells are so ridiculously easy to counter, I'm actually for -buffing- them (Nerfing Clarity and PfE). More Enchanters with Hold Spells would be a nice thing.





Noooo, high DC holds feel so... dirty when I use them.

But use them anyway I do!


Rex

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Re: Fear
« Reply #20 on: December 08, 2009, 02:31:33 PM »
Fear is nothing to be modified. It works just as intended. And this is coming from a player of epicly low will save characters.  Potion of Clarity, abber dream catcher,  scroll PfE, scroll of clarity.  Stock up on them for when the spell is not available in the party.

Actually the NwN Fear works incorrectly.  Should look like this:

Fear
Necromancy [Fear, Mind-Affecting]
Level:    Brd 3, Sor/Wiz 4
Components:    V, S, M
Casting Time:    1 standard action
Range:    30 ft.
Area:    Cone-shaped burst
Duration:    1 round/level or 1 round; see text
Saving Throw:    Will partial
Spell Resistance:    Yes

An invisible cone of terror causes each living creature in the area to become panicked unless it succeeds on a Will save. If cornered, a panicked creature begins cowering. If the Will save succeeds, the creature is shaken for 1 round.
Material Component

Either the heart of a hen or a white feather.


Panicked = this:

A panicked creature must drop anything it holds and flee at top speed from the source of its fear, as well as any other dangers it encounters, along a random path. It can’t take any other actions. In addition, the creature takes a -2 penalty on all saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks. If cornered, a panicked creature cowers. A panicked creature can use special abilities, including spells, to flee; indeed, the creature must use such means if they are the only way to escape.

Panicked is a more extreme state of fear than shaken or frightened.

Cowering = this:  

The character is frozen in fear and can take no actions. A cowering character takes a -2 penalty to Armor Class and loses her Dexterity bonus (if any).

And of course shaken (not stirred) = this:

A shaken character takes a -2 penalty on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, and ability checks.

Shaken is a less severe state of fear than frightened or panicked.  Frightened is Shaken but you run away......

So, I'm for more control, because I always found the NwN Ping Pong you into Bad Terrain until you are dead to be annoying, but I would also be for all the other stuff, Like dropping everything you are holding as well.

~Rex...  Order > Random ......


 
« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 02:47:41 PM by Rex »
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Emomina

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Re: Fear
« Reply #21 on: December 08, 2009, 02:44:28 PM »
Quote
but I would also be for all the other stuff, Like dropping everything you are holding as well.


I would rather ping pong all day then having my stuff fall onto the ground.

Rex

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Re: Fear
« Reply #22 on: December 08, 2009, 02:49:18 PM »
And if you get wedged into a corner, all your hand held stuff is still on the ground, and you're dead, so what's the difference, other then, perhaps you can get away with a healthy respect of scary things?

~Rex ..... Story > Stuff.

Sometimes brutal violence is the only answer.

Aldarris

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Re: Fear
« Reply #23 on: December 08, 2009, 03:29:44 PM »
Quote
Another ravenloft set server used a system that allowed for such things as shaken where you would have decreased ab but still be able to decide if you wanted to fight or flight.  Utter fear led to paralysis where the pc was unable to move or react having been frozen with fear.  It was an interesting system with about four possible results/reactions to 'fear', very interesting system and certainly one which felt a bit more realistic than being feared and just running willy nilly into inevitably worse situations than the one that caused the fright to begin with.

All for this idea.   :thumbup:

And to compare a human being with a deer is just, well, asinine.  Guy's car stuck on train tracks, he's trying frantically to unbuckle his seatbelt and dive out of the car before it gets impaled.  A person watching a car come at them either has 1) a suicidal deathwish 2) realizes that the car is already on top of them and they have no chance to move.

This is, from a scientific viewpoint how a deer reacts to an oncoming car:

Quote
A deer decides to cross a road. It instinctively moves forward when it’s scared. So, it sees a car and decides to run. But it runs only forward. I have hit five of them, and they all have been moving forward when I hit them. It never occurs to them to stand still, or else turn and run back into the brush behind them. They see the trees across the road, and they imagine safety. They see a car coming, and they do not compare their speed with its speed. Fear = run forward: this is the limit of a deer’s response to a car. Headlights or not, a scared deer runs forward.

This is probably what you were referring to as the expression "Looking like a dear caught in headlights":

Quote
“To look like a deer in the headlights” is an American expression meaning “to look stunned and at a loss for words when asked an unexpected question or made the center of attention”

The fact is that it is the basis of human nature to try and survive.  To live.  That's why adrenaline kicks in when you're being chased by something big, or if you're in a fight.  There's that sense of self-preservation.

Sure, watching any horror movie I can think of people do things desperately trying to get away from the killer/creature (though not always the SMARTEST thing, considering they're afraid and not thinking clearly)

No player on a roleplay server should be forced to watch their character do things to get themselves killed instead of what the player would have had them do instead.  That's where the frustration comes in.

"I was forced to watch my character under the effects of fear run head long into five stronger enemies who hacked my character to death"

"My character just stood there while feared, not running away because of stupid game mechanics and let himself get surrounded and killed"

« Last Edit: December 08, 2009, 03:40:53 PM by Aldarris »
Figures, Soren's too busy to do something positive.  He thinks putting a smiling face in every message is positivity.

Heretic is a terrible player, always has been.  No wonder PoTM numbers are dwindling *sigh*

ethinos

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Re: Fear
« Reply #24 on: December 08, 2009, 03:35:30 PM »
I don't agree with dropping hand-held items, but the spell is not operating in a way that is similar to the PnP version, which we always seem to emulate. The fact that the spell can be countered is not a good argument for leaving it the way that it is, because that is not what we were trying to change.
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