Persuasion, Antagonize @ me complaining.

[Kendric98]

There is something that people do that irritates me and its been getting worse lately. My persuasion rolls have been getting ignored alot and for some time, and from what im being told this seems to be a wide spread problem. Let me give an example...my char is in a RP, during that RP i try to lure a victim into walking Androvia home at night because I'm stuck in the outskirts after dark. I roll lets say a 35 persuasion roll..At this point 2 things always happen to me, the person will roll and if they fail to beat me they will make some excuse as to why they cant do said request. [Probobly because they know ooc im a monster] Or they will ignore my roll completely then give an ic excuse. These are people who know better not just noobs that are doing this that have no idea how the system works. Ive seen it happen with antagonize to just not as often.

Now we all know influence isn't charm. But if the request is reasonable although slightly dangerous isn't someone influencing you to do it enough to get the person to do it, or is influence optional based on wether they want to or not? So what is the server ruling on the skill rolls? BTW if i posted this in the wrong spot I'm sorry but it seemed like the right spot.

[DarkWyvern]

That depends really.

If the PC in question has been warned, or has learned for him/herself that the night is dangerous. They may make the excuse IC that they cannot because they are not willing to risk their lives out there. Which would be befitting of the setting, if people RP'd fearing the night more

[Badbelly]

Trying to force RP through rolls is not a good idea. Rolls are there as a RP aid, not to replace RP. Expecting players to do what you want because of a high influence is not fair to them. Too many people think Rolls trump RP. Rolls are there to enhance RP, not replace it. There are also IC modifiers that need to be used. I have PC's who are pacifists, you would need to roll 100 to get them into a fight, even after getting under their skin with IC actions. Where as other PC's of mine would fight them if they just looked in their direction with little or no IC provocation. Want to use rolls, thats fine but just don't expect people to react like you wish them to, that is not the reason they are in the game. Rolls can be a great enhancement for RP but only if used in the right fashion and mindset.

[happy_kill]

Alignment seems like it would also be an issue. If you are trying to influence an evil PC into helping you walk safely home... i doubt it matters what you roll if it is something the PC would just not even consider in the first place. Am I wrong? Influence to me seems like something more fitting of a person on the edge of the decision... should I or shouldn't I? That's kinda how I view it. I may be wrong though.

[Pepchko]

i feel your pain Androvia. and in regards to the post id like to share my opinion with the community

my character Vincent probably has one of the highest influence rolls on the server. and rarely do people respond to them. influence is suppose to be a roll for influencing the target to make them believe your lies/suggestions/advice etc. i always use them sparingly and subtle. i personally dont try to force someone to do something their character wouldn't do to begin with, because then they would have a right to ignore the roll.

i designed the character to be very influential and spent many feats/skills/items to boost it that high. i do wish that people would at least acknowledge the fact that we invested in this skills to have an edge in conversational "RP". to ignore the skill completely is also wrong in my opinion. these skills are in the game for a reason and should be respected just as the others are. it may not have a mechanical function but it is still a skill that had to be invested in non the less. this is a roleplay server, and roleplay skills should not be ignored. also i think it would be a good idea to see more DM's respond to Influence and Antagonize rolls with NPC's, some of you ignore them completely even when they are subtle.

of course there will always be someone who tries the "jedi mind trick". and like anything, if it is abused then it is fine to ignore the roll. but please give us a chance and keep a open and respectful mind, when it is used appropriately.

[Ingwulf]

I mentioned a similar problem with the antagonize rolls, in another post here regarding the subject. I understand if people resist a little but to ignore it completely is frustrating...

[Emomina]

just keep it all in-character....

All that a fantastic roll represents is how awesomely persuasive or intimidating you were, and has ZERO bearing on the other character.  The reaction of the other character is something to be role-played and the player can use your roll to get a good idea of how to react with their character.

[DM Tarokka]

This was an old post of Axel.

"We had this discussion before in another thread, and I'd like to qoute myself from that discussion, because I think I made a pretty good point. (Actually i just like to quote myself in general, it has nothing to do with this discussion, or wether or not my point was good)  Wink

The old thread was here.

Quote from: gallac
This is a rather interresting discussion which I have two point to make for:

First:
Quote from: PotM Rules Draft #4
No "Cheesing": "Cheesing" an ability is the act of playing your character as if they have an ability which the NWN engine would not otherwise allow them to have.

Simply because there is no intimidate implemented in the NWN engine there is no rules that should be followed by any players regard intimidation.

On the other hand, if you feel thet your character is intimidated then go ahead and act intimidated! (Wow, that could really get to the point of some extremely fun player interaction!)

Secondly:
Quote from: D&D Dungeon Master Guide v.3.5, p. 15
The important point to remember regarding the actions of player characters during an adventure is that each player controls his or her own character. Don't force a character to take a specific action. Don't tell a player what his or her characters emotinons are. Even if an NPC with a high Charisma score attempts to persuade a character into doing something. Some rules in the game apply specifically to NPCs and not PCs, the most significant of which are the rules concerning NPC attidudes.

Since not even dungeon masters should try to tell players how to feel during an encounter with anybody else you (as a player character) should not.

Still, go ahead and tell (yes, out of character, in a tell) somebody else that you are trying to intimidate them, and you have a lot of ranks in intimidate. The other character might even be intimidatable (is that even a word?). Still don't count on it or, as said in the original post:
Quote from: Tarth
mind you remeber theres always exceptions, Paladins aren't afraid of anything, and the cowardly rouge or bard willn't stay around when faces with one on one combat either!

Which of course is a gross generalization, but still works wonders for showing exactly what is meant; Play you character the way you think he/she should be played, and enrich your own roleplay experience by reacting as your character would react to another intimidating character."

Simply consider that some of those rolls are supposed to work on NPCs more than on PCs. And the attitude or stubborness of a character "victim" of a high roll cannot be won that easily.

[Psyche]

I agree; attemtping to force compliance/roleplay with Influence isn't the right idea, but as Stravokov says, to convince people of lies and such..

[herkles]

While I agree that you should not let influence and antatgonize tell you how to role, provided rp is backed up with it, it should be a guide on how your charachter might act. I try to always take influence and antagonize into consideration when I roleplay. It does not say what I am supposed to do but it helps guide how i do what I do.

[Dhark]

My advice would be to target those who are less likely to refuse aid , act wounded (complete with tears & startled reactions to the wolf howls beyond)[underpass scene in "Let the right one in"  ]..make it a LOT harder for them to refuse .   Make the RP do the work & the rolls be a punctuation mark .

Umm allright , this is no slight on your RP , but a Barovian , hooded & in black hanging about the outskirts ...you might as well have a neon sign about your head saying VROLOK.

I'd love to see a sence motive skill in game ...this would solve a lot of problems .

[Emomina]

Sense Motive!  +1 to that,  also Gather Information    oh, how nice it would be to have the full skill list

[LawfulJoe]

I would say a failled resistance to someones influence would not mke them say... "Ok" and wander off into the night, but maybe they would consider your request, stil being wary of dangerous situations.

The "Walk me home, it's Night" senario for example.

Now if the RP had developed where the target PC had some trust in the suggestor, for example, a man is hoping for some night time fun and the pretty lady just gave him the bedroom look and the wink wink come long gesture, most would be walking the lady home... and food for monsters 

Now if it was a more innocent approach or to someone of the same sex who is not sexually interested in the suggestor, I could see them agreeing to walk you home, but trying to get a couple other people together, the whole "Safety in Numbers" concept. Still dangerous for the Monster PC, but at least you got walked home. 2 PCs against one Monster is usually in the Monsters favor... usually.

The Rolls are not forced RP, but they should not be ignored. They should influence your RP and expand the experience. It's improvisation, play off the other PC, and the other PCs rolls. Fail an influence, then you believe what they tell you. If you make the check, then something just doesn't add up.

We are here to play off each other, not see who is the biggest badass in the land. I personally would see that as an opportunity to experience what ravenloft is about. Sure, you would be suspicious OOC, but keep in mind, Monster encounters do not usualy end in a perma death if death at all. Roll with it and have fun, the horror scenes put together by other players are equal to DMs. They have tools to enhance it and in a way are lesser DMs themselves. Don't view them as the competition any more than you would a DM. Monster PCs are here to make the world come to life with Monsters who are not AI controlled.

Enjoy the game, in all of it's aspects, even in the dramatic. It's not all about the sword swinging, and spell casting, that would be World of Warcraft Wrap yourself in the experience and ABOVE ALL have FUN! That's an Order!

[tzaeru]

Well, just remember, that failing an influence roll does not mean you instantly agree with the other character. It means that your character sees the situation through a way that fits his agenda well.

Failing influence, paladin could think that maybe this person is an exception and safe; A smart tiefling could figure that yeah, might be a vampire, but it sure could be fun time, too, and go on careless. Some big barbarian, while not much fancying the lady, could feel that she's daring the barbarian to walk her home.

In any case, altering one's own character's reactions based on skill rolls can prompt a lot good RP. It's boring as it's painful in all nine hells to just jog in between sitting in tavern, wacking random skellies and talking about how badass your nihilist, sarcastic character is. - That's, with a sarcastic tone, then.  

In any case, the influence roll should be supported by roleplaying that tries to tap to the ways that a person could be convicted. There are people who could be lured to feel protective over the vampire, some might be sexually interested, other's have their pride, some way want to rob her..

So, not so much about convincing your character to do something against their will; But rather to remind them and make them believe there could be a lot profit in walking the gal homewards.

[Vespertilio]

Barovian , hooded & in black hanging about the outskirts ...you might as well have a neon sign about your head saying VROLOK.

I would agree, it is highly suspicious to say you're too afraid to walk home in the dark, while standing around in the dark as a native Brovian, asking random outlanders to escort you.

Conversely I've seen plenty of characters who ought to know 'better' wander off in the dark with black clad women holding umbrellas at night for going on almost two years now.  It's up to the individual pc I'd say, some have been bitten and liked it so much they will jump at a chance to get leeched again, others don't find it 'sexy' and see spawn as monters.  I'd say overall the server is a LOT friendlier and supportive to MPCs when a spawn can stand in the outskirts and openly leech pcs in front of groups of characters without being attacked or hunted down and staked for it.

[X5Alexander]

That's why female vampires should just stick to asking Henry to walk them home at night. He'll do it if you ask nicely and promise to be gentle when you feast on him.

EDIT: Or he'll just mess around with you with his endless supply of garlic and stakes until you get angry and straight up kill him... [cough]

[Delete Me]

I try to incorporate these rolls into my DMing.

As I said in the last thread, these skills can potentially save your life, or prematurely end it.

Someone attempted a grapple.  My beast rolled 2x his grapple, so the beast crushed him to death.

A beast charged stravakov in a rage.. Stravakov rolled a -high- intimade. It made the beast pause -just- long enough for Stravakov to have a big cup of "OMG RUN"

I like these rolls.

Alot.

Use them moar.

Please?

(But no, in regards to player interaction with them, they're not the end all get all, due to each person having a severely different personality and take on things.  You can be the most influential person in the world, but that still wont make Mr.Rogue run head first off a cliff. )

[herkles]

I always try to reward creativity when it comes to horror. Ie, I am more willing to go along with stuff if the idea is creative enough. Denisa being a native barovian is afraid of Old night and will not go out side unless absolutely necessary, ie the building was on fire. However being creative and coming up with fun ways to create horror, I will be more willing to go with.

and on topic, as I said earlier I like to use influence as a guide, and rp must accompany it. But I use it to further rp.

[nakedxXbeauty]

As has been said before, dice rolls should not be used to force roleplay, but help to expand and guide it.  I don't care how persuasive some shady man in the back of a dark, dirty alley is.  He can coax me to follow him all he wants, it ain't happening.  Sometimes it doesn't matter how scary or how convincing someone is, you just aren't going to agree or following along with their lead.  Sure, some characters may be really open to following rolls and such, but don't forget that there are those who have learned from past mistakes and really know better than to do certain things.  I will rely on a dice roll when there's a situation such as; Player A has just come to Ravenloft via the mists.  He is alone and should probably be a bit timid.  Instead, he goes up to big, shady, scary, angry player B and insults him.  Player B rolls 30 antagonize.  Player A stands his ground and continues flinging insults.  Yeeeeah.... for some reason I don't see that happening.  There is a point to which rolls should be followed, perhaps guiding the attitude of the pc, but not forcing it to do anything especially in a case where it could be taken as an ooc action.

[Minstrel]

If you're going to put a lot of ranks in Persuade or Intimidate....

You'd better damn well be able to play a Persuasive or Intimidating PC.

I'll usually ignore persuade checks if they're used in the context of

'Follow me. [Persuade: 52]'

Just sticking ranks into persuade isn't enough in my book.

Speaking of books, how about The Rulebook?

Persuade replaces Diplomacy. Here's the SRD text on 'Diplomacy'.


--------------------------

Diplomacy

 You can change the attitudes of others (nonplayer characters) with a successful Diplomacy check; see the Influencing NPC Attitudes sidebar, below, for basic DCs. In negotiations, participants roll opposed Diplomacy checks, and the winner gains the advantage. Opposed checks also resolve situations when two advocates or diplomats plead opposite cases in a hearing before a third party.

Action

Changing others’ attitudes with Diplomacy generally takes at least 1 full minute (10 consecutive full-round actions). In some situations, this time requirement may greatly increase. A rushed Diplomacy check can be made as a full-round action, but you take a -10 penalty on the check.

Code: [Select]

                    New Attitude (DC to achieve)
Initial Attitude
        Hostile  Unfriendly Indifferent Friendly Helpful
Hostile  Less than 20  20  25  35  50
Unfriendly Less than 5 5 15 25 40
Indifferent — Less than 1 1 15 30
Friendly — — Less than 1 1 20
Helpful — — — Less than 1 1

Code: [Select]

Attitude  Means                        Possible Actions
Hostile Will take risks to hurt you Attack, interfere, berate, flee
Unfriendly Wishes you ill                Mislead, gossip, avoid, watch suspiciously, insult
Indifferent Doesn’t much care        Socially expected interaction
Friendly Wishes you well        Chat, advise, offer limited help, advocate
Helpful Will take risks to help you Protect, back up, heal, aid

--------------------------

This means that, going by the book, Persuade makes people like you a bit more. It does not convince them of anything. It makes them more likely to believe you, help you, or follow instructions, but you need to get around a 40 to make someone go from Unfriendly to Helpful. In fact, in this module I'd use even higher scores, since we've butchered both Bluff and Diplomacy together into 'All Purpose Social Skill'.

[DM Nocturne]

Barovian , hooded & in black hanging about the outskirts ...you might as well have a neon sign about your head saying VROLOK.

I would agree, it is highly suspicious to say you're too afraid to walk home in the dark, while standing around in the dark as a native Brovian, asking random outlanders to escort you.

Conversely I've seen plenty of characters who ought to know 'better' wander off in the dark with black clad women holding umbrellas at night for going on almost two years now.  It's up to the individual pc I'd say, some have been bitten and liked it so much they will jump at a chance to get leeched again, others don't find it 'sexy' and see spawn as monters.  I'd say overall the server is a LOT friendlier and supportive to MPCs when a spawn can stand in the outskirts and openly leech pcs in front of groups of characters without being attacked or hunted down and staked for it.

It may be obvious from an OOC point of view since players have been playing characters in the outskirts for a long time. But from a fresh PC's eyes IC, it would be different. It is indeed up the the individual character how they deal with their situation. Some older characters may have motivations that let them remain near these monsters.

I'll usually ignore persuade checks if they're used in the context of
'Follow me. [Persuade: 52]'

Likewise. I'd more likely respond to such a roll when the player puts effort into actually trying (e.g. typing out more than one-liners) rather than letting their rolls speak for themselves.

I agree with the general consensus here. A player shouldn't completely ignore these rolls if they're done well, but neither should they let them dominate their roleplay. It's an add-on.

[mayvind]

From what i understand skills rolls are Guidance to RP but it is not a FIX rules that you have to obey the roll and you can ignore it if it is absurd. I do not put much into skill rolls but instead on the visual and RP lead the atmosphere. And yes i have kill lots of barbarian whom roll 67 antagonize on Yves. Because she feel that if it is threatening or insulting kill it so careful with the rolls !.

But skill rolls also good for more subtle things like telling a lie, provoke or instigate fear or anger ( with couple of words RP ). I do find confusing some time if someone look at my char then roll antagonize without some guidance of what the person want will result in ignore. "Look at Yves" roll 67 antagonize. "Yves ignore the look"
 

From the other thread ! repeat it here ! 

[Amon-Si]

Eliza ans Ehliel are both fairly persuasive PCs, they've both invested ranks in the skill (Eliza much more than Ehl, complete with soothing presence, etc) I rarely, if ever, roll the skills though, and usually only when resisting others, the rest of the time I rely on the fact that I play them both to be persuasive in their own particular ways, for example:

Eliza is -not- going to be intimidating to anyone unless they're smart enough to factor in that she has the guarda backing her, or they know she's a witch.

Ehl on the other hand, with her fangs and wings mainly does her best -not- to intimidate people... unless it's fun... or she's bored... but she's good at persuading people, with logic, that evil actions are not always evil.

[DM Tarokka]

Last examples are noteworthy. I spent some ranks in influence as well with my character Caterina (at least 1 point every level, plus will breaker feat), but it's something I tend to use just with NPCs, the rest of the characters she meets and wants to persuade in anything, well she uses her logic. Sometimes one can roll this "influence" to underline the general persuasiveness and good speech, but nothing which is really changing the facts of the interaction.

At the same time, provided her story, she can be stubbornly NOT scared by something (and she -did- pay some consequences from that), and irrationally having her brain going blank for some other reasons, all built through her experience, story, etc.

A new character coming from the Mists (or by regular travel from another place of the Core) might be probably better "played" with those skills, but at the same time a new character is unlikely being born the day before and he/she will have a background story to which referring.

Those skills, in my view, but also in the view of many who had posted here, have not a "mechanical" effect: they're not tumble or use magical device working "all the time", and affects the adventuring really a little, but they're a big help to build your character's identity, and a nice compendium for some IG episodes. Remember that not even a charme spell can force anyone to do some things.

[Kendric98]

Wow allot of good feedback, I should be able to better tailor my use of the skill now in RP. I always used the roll with RP, although I'm having a tough time remembering the last time it was of any use and not just ignored. Plus even though i see the difference between persuasion and stay grapple they are both treated differently in the respect that one can be ignored and the other cant. I think persuasion should be re-labled diplomacy as its name was  misleading to me. As for the dark clad woman in the outskirts such will likely remain popular as long as dumb chars keep standing outside to be eaten. Its like the wall-Mart food section for monsters mm mm good.